Regarding BL games...

[sake-bento]

For me, I'm bothered by the objectification largely due to real world circumstances. I have known yaoi fans to treat both straight and homsexual males very poorly because of their thirst for yaoi. If these girls could keep themselves happy watching their yaoi, then that's their thing. But I've known girls who have harassed homosexual men to perform acts like making out or French kissing for them, just so they can giggle and squeal over it. I've also known girls to attempt to force straight men together because they think it would be "cute." I call that objectification, because they no longer see these people as human beings with real emotions and relationships, but rather some form of entertainment. I'm well aware that not everyone is like that, but that's what has largely shaped my opinion of the genre because that is what I have experienced first hand.

[Jake]

I've known girls who have harassed homosexual men to perform acts like making out or French kissing for them, just so they can giggle and squeal over it. I've also known girls to attempt to force straight men together because they think it would be "cute." I call that objectification

I've heard of men harrassing lesbians and I've seen men try and get two women together because they think it would be "hot". And maybe I'd call it objectification, but I wouldn't blame the porn; I'd blame the idiots doing the objectifying. I'm hardly surprised to find out that not only men, but also women can be arseholes.

Do you also dislike videogames because they turn our children into killing machines?

[sake-bento]

I'm not blaming the porn; I'm saying I don't like the fact that it encourages that sort of behavior. There are also specific video games I dislike because I think they do encourage bad behavior (be it violence or anything else). It would be the same as me saying I dislike videos of popular movie stars saying "Drugs are cool!" The videos won't make every kid rush out and start shooting up, and every kid who DOES start shooting up is accountable, but I don't like the fact that the video encourages it.

[Evangeline]

You're presuming that when Ren said that thing that you agreed with, she definitely wasn't talking about women posting here?

And you're presuming that when I agreed with her I was thinking only of men who were being condescending. I can assure you that is not the case.

. . . Alternatively, it could also be that the perceived need to explain "why on earth would anyone like something like this" is all in the prejudices and imaginations of the person perceiving the need. I didn't see anybody in this thread saying anything of the sort or even implying anything of the sort. There's a question at the beginning of the thread as to how well it would go down, and ... that's the person thinking about making a BL game worrying pre-emptively that the community might dislike them for it. That doesn't reflect how this community has a "male-centric perspective", it reflects how the person making the first post thinks there might be a "male-centric perspective".

Perhaps my choice of words was not the best, but I argue that it is not just me seeing things. First of all, someone posted in here explaining why girls like yaoi - although nobody asked the question - which shows that the person assumed that it was something that needed to be explained. Whereas no one seemed to feel a need to defend why people like yuri. A liking for yuri, in short, is simply assumed to be the norm. Also, in general there was more support for the "yuri option thread" compared to this thread. I am aware that because of the nature of the threads, they are not completely comparable, but I think you can see why that I might be forgiven for thinking that a male-centric perspective exists.

But then again, I think it's a given that the world in general is still male-dominated. Less so in some countries than others, but still male-dominated.

I agree this is not the place to discuss feminism and it was unnecessary for me to bring that up at all.

EDIT: sake-bento: I have had no experience of this first hand, but I cannot believe that the same thing doesn't happen with yuri fanboys and straight/homosexual females. On a more general level, it seems to me that lesbianism, especially if it's the variety that appeals to men, is more acceptable on a general level. I've heard of women who make out in order to turn guys on. It's not physical coercion, but more like psychological or social coercion on a large scale.

This doesn't mean that I don't think that what those girls did was wrong. I think that trying to force people to do things that they are uncomfortable with is wrong on any level. (Well, unless it's good for them and you're their parent or teacher or whatever, and it's something like "eat your vegetables".)

But in any case, I don't know if this really reflects on BL as a general? It seems to me more like it reflects more on the general tendency for girls to get turned on by maleXmale romantic relationships rather than being in the BL fandom. In the same way that straight men generally have a tendency to get turned on by femaleXfemale sexual relationships. The difference is that since the male perspective is more accepted, perhaps male attempts to get females to make out aren't seen as wrong or offensive, but signs of normal behavior, in comparison to when females try to do the same to males?

Just to be clear, I don't condone either of those behaviors - I'm just trying to point out how our moral judgments can be affected by internalized and unconscious gender-based prejudices.

And I'm sorry if my posts are long. I just tend to ramble a lot and revisit the same points over and over again. If I were writing an essay I'd go over and make my arguments more concise and streamlined, but since this is just a forum... eh.

EDITEDIT: Ah, thank you Jake for confirming what I suspected of males doing the same thing to females as well.

EDITEDITEDIT:

It would be the same as me saying I dislike videos of popular movie stars saying "Drugs are cool!" The videos won't make every kid rush out and start shooting up, and every kid who DOES start shooting up is accountable, but I don't like the fact that the video encourages it.

BL doesn't encourage girls to like menXmen action, in the same way that GL doesn't encourage boys to like femaleXfemale action. It's precisely because they like those things that they seek out those particular fandoms.

[sake-bento]

I do separate BL and yaoi in my mind, as BL (for me), is merely stuff that focuses on homosexual relationships while yaoi is a lot more smutty with largely less noble intentions. And I did say that while I have no real opinion on BL, yaoi kinda bothers me because it encourages certain jerkish behavior. I don't really think it's okay for men to be jerks either; I just haven't had firsthand experience with it.

For what it's worth, I'm also the prude who dislikes certain shoujo manga like Blackbird and Love Monster because it encourages girls to roll over and get raped. So it's not really any specific vendetta against yaoi, but a more overarching concern that some media (but not all) sends a very poor message that encourages bad behavior.

I'm also a proponent of free speech, which means that even if I disagree with the message, I don't want any of this media to be banned.

Which loops me around to the OP's question: Aka, I have no opinion on BL, but if you want to make a BL game, then go for it!

[Evangeline]

Ah... yeah, I'm afraid I've been conflating BL with yaoi all this time. Well, that is certainly the understanding of the terms in Western fandoms, but I understand that those terms have very different connotations in Japan.

I think you're talking about the kichiku megane character archetype/subgenre, which... to put it crudely, romanticizes jerks, sadists, and rapists. I think it's a subtrope of Evil is Cool, and that media in general tends to romanticize violence, criminals, gangs, jerks, and just generally bad people. So this doesn't really bother me in particular.

But I can assure you that not all yaoi is like that; I've read plenty of yaoi hentai in my time, and really, I don't think that many of them encourage jerkish behavior, any more than media in general.

But yes. In short. Go make your BL game. People here are, if not overwhelmingly enthusiastic, quite tolerant of the genre, and again, there are huge audiences for BL out there.

[Wintermoon]

On the other extreme, there are genres like this (warning: NSFW) and gay porn that are tailored for a gay audience.

I'll admit I'm not an expert on the different types of gay porn. For the lesbian side, I've always had the opposite impression: that Japanese yuri focuses more on relationships (stereotypically of interest to women) while the Nifty archive focuses more on the actual deed (stereotypically of interest to men).

I think there's a very common stereotype that all men are dirty perverts while women are above all that. All porn, especially lesbian porn, is seen as the misogynistic exploitation of women by men. Even non-sexual yuri is seen as exploitation. Male-on-male porn breaks that stereotype, especially when it's viewed by women. In the eyes of the pseudo-feminist puritanical anti-porn brigade, women who enjoy it are therefore traitors to their gender who lower themselves to the level of men.

And that is why women who enjoy BL are seen as weird while men who enjoy yuri are seen as normal.

But if your argument is correct, that only explains why the "pseudo-feminist puritanical anti-porn brigade" think women who enjoy BL is weird. What about all the other people? What about the people who are posting here? I don't think I see any puritanical pseudo-feminists running around here.

What other people? In this thread, I see people expressing their personal like or dislike for BL. I see one attempt to analyze the psychology of BL fans, in a post that is overall in favor of BL. And I see you projecting some kind of bias against BL onto this forum based on that one data point.

In the eyes of the pseudo-feminist puritanical anti-porn brigade, women who enjoy it are therefore traitors to their gender who lower themselves to the level of men.

I... really don't understand this reasoning. I don't know of any feminist writers who espouse this view. And in any case, it seems to me that girls who like yaoi in general don't enjoy watching real gay porn. (I enjoy it personally - sometimes - but I don't think that I'm representative of most yaoi fans in this case.) And most heterosexual men (yourself as an example) probably don't enjoy watching gay porn either. So... how are women who watch gay porn lowered to the level of (heterosexual) men who don't, as a rule, enjoy gay porn...?

Simple line of reasoning:

• All porn is dirty and evil.
• Only dirty pigs like porn.
• All men like porn, but that's to be expected, because all men are dirty pigs.
• Women who like porn are also dirty pigs, and should know better.

[LVUER]

Hahaha ^_^ Your simple lines of reasoning are hilarious... So humanity is depending on bunch of dirty pigs... scary...

[Evangeline]

What other people? In this thread, I see people expressing their personal like or dislike for BL. I see one attempt to analyze the psychology of BL fans, in a post that is overall in favor of BL. And I see you projecting some kind of bias against BL onto this forum based on that one data point.

From the yuri thread:

I would love to have the GxG option, hehe~

Yes, yes, yes! Go for it! Be careful though - this may inpact the story a bit and might depend on what girl she is. Not that I like to stereotype characters, but certain ones might play a better role than the others at this. The rest will depend on how'd you like the story to end; A some kind of a bittersweet ending with her would be nice

I really think yuri isn't necessary.

So, how much would it add/subtract from the game if I included this yuri option?

I think it would add a lot.

I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other, because as a girl, I don't mind playing a GxG path (although I wouldn't play a game for that alone).

As long as putting a GxG option isn't just fanservice, and it's a serious, well-thought path like the other characters, go for it.

Personally, yes, I want you to include a yuri ending.

By all means include it, I think it could broaden it. But yes, be just as careful with the handling as you are with the other's paths.

Girl on girl is always good. No exceptions.

As a person who doesn't mind Yuri relationships I say go for it.

Completely positive comments: 6 (60%)

Don't mind, go for it comments: 3 (30%)

Not a good idea comments: 1 (10%)

-------

Taken from the comments on this thread:

I don't really care for BL since it doesn't interest me much (I just love otome games more). I don't mind light fluff though, but even then it's not enough for me to really like it. If you can make a really good story with BL in it, I could take a gander

I don't really care for BL since it doesn't interest me much (I just love otome games more). I don't mind light fluff though, but even then it's not enough for me to really like it. If you can make a really good story with BL in it, I could take a gander


Me too, but I really enjoy Dream Savior Gakuen because of the faceless Main Character and I always pretend that the main character is actually a girl
I'm personally not a fan of BL but I am sure there is a good audience waiting for original english game release!
^^ Ill totally support it if you decide to make one~

Not a big fan...

Even though I seem to love shounen-ai anime and dramas.
-Kyou Kara Maou
-Personal taste (K-drama)
-Monochrome Factor
-Various Mangas

But for some reason when it makes the jump to yaoi... I don't enjoy it as much. Which is weird, because I thought maybe I would..?

So I guess as long as it's not too 'intimate' I like it?

There was a point in time, many ages ago, when I read straight fanfiction...And then I discovered BL. Now, I've seen just about every shounen-ai/yaoi anime in existence, played every commercial BL game with an English translation, adorn my bedroom with all sorts of BxB paraphernalia...Okay, perhaps not that last, but I digress.


I don't *hate* BL games (heck, I'm even booked to draw for one in a couple of months x'D ), but I can't say I like it.
I don't mind a BxB relationship in a good story, but I certainly don't look for stories centered on BxB relationships

I more like hinted games, but it all depends on the game.. I like it where theres girls in the story too,, but as long as it's not too angsty.. but BL tends too make male characters more feminine.. so a good character development.. all that and i'm sure i'll like it.

I'm not a big fan and probably wouldn't play a game that was all BxB. Nothing against it, it just doesn't interest me that much. I do enjoy certain specific BxB relationships, and would probably be more interested in the game if it were mostly BxG with one BxB route, rather than one of these settings where suddenly EVERYONE IS GAY for no obvious reason.

Basically, I'm more interested if the relationship is heavily emotionally charged and taboo in some way. A BxG game where you have an evil male adversary and then have the possibility to Foe Yay with him... hot!

I have nothing against BL either, but I wouldn't play one unless it was really deep and the focus of the relationship was on the relationship itself, rather than anything sexual.

I like quality BL and I seem to like more BL than het. (GL as well but quality titles seem so rare):)

I'm fine with it. Just... don't make the men too uke. Being gay doesn't equal being weak and girlish.

I may be weird but i love BL. Since i love adventuring, a BL relationship seems to be adventurous(but i like the uke girlish and wimpy though...cuz somehow, i can't stand the two men who were both manly then....gay?? if its girlish, i stil end up thinking its a normal BXG but much better)

Completely positive comments: 27%

Not a fan, but might like it under certain conditions: 73%

Now, I realize that the categories are a bit arbitrary, and I might be biased when it comes to quoting and categorizing comments (please feel free to come up with your own census) and that these people might not be a representative sample of the entire community, but the trend is clear: much more people are enthusiastic about GL than about BL on these forums (60% compared to 27%), and the general tone of the unequivocal GL supporters are extremely passionate and direct - contrast with the unequivocal BL supporters, whose posts show an awareness that they are in the minority and/or abnormal. "I may be weird". "you'll have at least one guaranteed player". "You'll find that a lot of people here appreciate BL. We're a pretty perverse diverse community." "at least there are some like me who were willing to play BL"

at least some like me who were willing to play BL. Willing to. Contrast that with "GIRL ON GIRL IS ALWAYS GOOD. NO EXCEPTIONS."

I will say, though, everyone here was supportive of both GL and BL regardless of their own personal likes or dislikes, and as a newcomer to the boards, I find that to be a good sign that this is an open, supportive community. That's an entirely separate thing from the fact that there was a general trend for people to love GL more than BL, and that support for BL was more problematic and mixed than support for GL.

Think for a little bit about why this trend exists. My argument is that because heterosexual men in general tend to find girl on girl hot, while boy on boy is eww, and since society is dominated by heterosexual men, the viewpoints and perspectives of hetereosexual men are seen to be of more value or more "right", and are portrayed as such in the media; females, then, will have a tendency to internalize typical masculine perspectives. Hence why GL is more acceptable than BL. See the following post lifted from the GL thread:

According to some readership statistics in Japan, I do believe the readership of BL manga generally hovers around 90% female and 10% male, while the readership of yuri manga is around 60% male, 40% female.
I'm ok with GxG, but I strongly dislike BL x'D Actually, I'd say half or so of the women I know don't like BL nor GL. According to my own observations, I'd say it's more common for men to like GxG than for women to like BxB

I'm not saying that anyone here is perpetuating the double standard, or are homophobic, or misogynist, or sexist, or anything. I'm think that people have been influenced by it; or should I say, are victims of it, regardless of whether they like BL or not. There is the sense that BL is somehow slightly more undesirable or perceived as "wrong" compared to GL. Again:

the general tone of the unequivocal GL supporters are extremely passionate and direct - contrast with the unequivocal BL supporters, whose posts show an awareness that they are in the minority and/or abnormal. "I may be weird". "you'll have at least one guaranteed player". "You'll find that a lot of people here appreciate BL. We're a pretty perverse diverse community." "at least there are some like me who were willing to play BL"

Willing to play it. Contrast that with "GIRL ON GIRL IS ALWAYS GOOD. NO EXCEPTIONS."

Lastly, I take back my argument that people here think that girls who like BL are weird while boys who like GL are normal. I didn't realize that was the argument I was essentially making when I wrote that post you quoted, Wintermoon. I don't believe that argument applies to anyone here, apart from the post analyzing why girls like BL, which I disagreed with more in terms of tone and attribution rather than the actual content. If you noticed, I agreed with most of the post's points as well, but changed the way some of the arguments were worded to make it seem less that it was something inherently "abnormal" with girls that made them like BL, and focused more on the societal conditions that would create such a phenomenon.

[Wintermoon]

Think for a little bit about why this trend exists. My argument is that because heterosexual men in general tend to find girl on girl hot, while boy on boy is eww, and since society is dominated by heterosexual men, the viewpoints and perspectives of hetereosexual men are seen to be of more value or more "right", and are portrayed as such in the media; females, then, will have a tendency to internalize typical masculine perspectives. Hence why GL is more acceptable than BL. See the following post lifted from the GL thread:

I could easily make the opposite argument, that GL than BL is more accepted because girls are more accepted than boys, men being dirty pigs and all that.

However, you haven't shown that GL is more accepted than BL at all. At best you've shown that it is more popular, but popular and accepted are completely different things. Computer games are very popular but under constant media attack; helping at homeless shelters is accepted and encouraged but not particularly popular as far as pastimes go.

There are all kinds of possible reasons for why GL could be more popular than BL:

• There could be more hetero males (and homo females) than hetero females (and homo males) in this forum.
• There could be a chain reaction where one enthusiastic post in favor of GL boosts the confidence of other proponents of GL and causes people who dislike GL to tone down their response or not respond at all.
• The difference in situations (one person considering the addition of a GxG route to a GxB game vs another person planning to make an all BxB game) could have influenced the responses.
• Girls could simply be less interested in BL than GL, for entirely biological non-societal reasons.
• It could be mere statistical noise.

[Evangeline]

I could easily make the opposite argument, that GL than BL is more accepted because girls are more accepted than boys, men being dirty pigs and all that.

You have a point there. But without further evidence, we have no way of supporting either argument.

However, you haven't shown that GL is more accepted than BL at all. At best you've shown that it is more popular, but popular and accepted are completely different things. Computer games are very popular but under constant media attack; helping at homeless shelters is accepted and encouraged but not particularly popular as far as pastimes go.

I think you could go a step further and say GL is more popular than BL, but real life female homosexuality is not more accepted than male homosexuality.

However, you haven't shown that GL is more accepted than BL at all. At best you've shown that it is more popular

I think the best you can say is that I've shown that it is more popular amongst the particular people who have commented in these two threads, who might not be representative of the Lemma community in general. My personal bias in selecting quotes and categorizing them, as well as this:

The difference in situations (one person considering the addition of a GxG route to a GxB game vs another person planning to make an all BxB game) could have influenced the responses.

and this:

It could be mere statistical noise.

and this:

There could be a chain reaction where one enthusiastic post in favor of GL boosts the confidence of other proponents of GL and causes people who dislike GL to tone down their response or not respond at all.

make my results rather questionable.

There could be more hetero males (and homo females) than hetero females (and homo males) in this forum.

Given the statistics quoted on about how 90% of yaoi readership is female compared to how 40% of yuri readership is female, I doubt that's a valid reason for why GL in general is more popular than BL. But that certainly might be why GL is more popular than BL in this forum.

Girls could simply be less interested in BL than GL, for entirely biological non-societal reasons.

That's an interesting theory! I wonder if there are studies that support this interpretation. Why would this be the case? This is something I'll definitely explore in the future.

[Codexus]

Yay! More BL games!

[LinWest]

Sorry for the maelstrom, lemma.

To clarify, LinWest, I'm not saying that your reasoning as to why girls like BL is invalid or necessarily wrong; it's the fact you had to explain it, and the way you worded it that makes it seem that something is wrong with you or that you are somehow psychologically inadequate or immature if you are a girl who likes BL, that reveals your androcentric bias that, to be fair, is shared by most of us who've grown up in a patriarchal culture.

Just Lin is fine btw.

Perhaps it did sound a bit like I was saying there is something wrong with girls who like yaoi. I didn't mean for it to come out that way. I don't think anyone else is strange for liking yaoi, I like yaoi myself and I don't think myself strange. (Furthermore, I don't think boys are pigs for liking yuri.) I was more debating WHY it is so popular for niche audiences of girls raised in patriarchy. I am sorry my wording has been taken as an negative evaluation on the girl's part, that was my poor phrasing of intent. You have picked it apart for what I trying to say and I appreciate that.

However please ask what I mean specifically before coming to conclusion about who I am and what I think, I will always try my best to explain myself. Yet I also understand intimately how touche feminism topics are, so I understand your ardor in reputing what you think is another idiot girl with no concept how sociologically we all came to be where we are in gender dynamics.

There are girls who enjoy yuri, hentai, yaoi, whatever and are comfortable with their sexuality. It important to note that there are girls who crutch on it. As I've said previously, I've seen girls completely ignore their own sexuality, deny it and refuse to talk about, but then rant off about their intense yaoi roleplay... It's displacement of sexuality on a patriarchy-comfortable outlet. It also can be related to female fertility goddesses being replaced with male ones that "give birth" and strip the female of their life producing abilities. Namely Zeus, and the written New Testament's Holy Trinity. Modern day myths that relate? I have to go with fictional characters and celebrities as the 21st century's mythology. Anime itself even pick up on it the relationship between idols and gods in Key the Metal Idol or Kannagi. Go pick up the Alphabet and Goddess by Leonard Shlain if it interests you.

Also, you argue that girls are drawn to BL because they feel "it is a more equal relationship since girls tend to be socially pressured into traditional role, when they might prefer a sexual relationship or an intimate lover who is also a friend". The argument you're making here is basically this: (1) the "traditional role" of females is to be non-sexual (or at least at first - which is why so many straight hentai have the girl being all embarrassed at their own arousal or pleasure while being extremely sexual at the same time - evolutionarily it makes sense for males to find "virtuous" females to be attractive because they are less likely to have sex with other men), and (2) a traditional relationship between a man and a woman is an unequal one, and an unequal relationship cannot include friendship.

Yup. You got it. Normally, an uninhibited female nature is sexual, social, and creative. However, self-worth and direction tend to lead dogs out of the kennel, so they have to trained. Women living in a patriarchy, such as Japan feel these influence. In America it's more of a double standard, virgin/whore complex with lots of guilt trips of self-indulgence. Once again, it's not right. That's how it is, we are a product of our environment and influences our interests. Which brings be back to "It's displacement of sexuality on a patriarchy-comfortable outlet."

So the commercialization of yaoi stems from patriarchy's bias, that pivots a heterosexual girl's interest in fictional content relevant to their own sexuality, to foreign grounds of BxB. This goes hand in hand with the point you make below:

And yet the uke is still girly and submissive and feminine and weak because girls have internalized the idea that THAT is what girls are like, and that THAT is what they are like, and THAT is what they should be like. And so if the uke is not all these things, he cannot be recognized as female and thus prevents the female readers from identifying with him. And that is why there is a seme-uke dynamic - it's simply a conventional, patriarchal heterosexual relationship with the sting of inequality taken off by the fact that the "female" in the relationship is actually a man.

That's a nice sum up of it.


Oh course, I'm not denying outside of patriarchy women will not like BxB. It makes sense that if you like men, what's better than double vision? I'm saying there is more of a tendency and need for girls to lean on yaoi/interests to be aroused by it in patriarchy. That's the point I'm trying to make. So go for it and make your games with yaoi, there is a large demand for it.

Which I know doesn't address the fact that the clarification has to be made debunking yaoi and not yuri... but she was asking for advice on reception. So I believe its appropriate to answer, pretty or not.

Taking it back to visual novels themselves... As an artist, I have a desire to create something beautiful and of high quality that can be appreciated and stand alone without me present. In addition to the desire to create, I also like to muse to myself that in creating things (writing, art, manga, visual novels, fashion, jewlery...anything) maybe it'll help girls realize they're entitled to enjoy themselves because these things I made exist for them. And if nothing else, just give them an instant of "oh, cool" when maybe everything else isn't cool in real life. I think it's important we look at why we're making something to understand what will do the work best justice. Consciousness of why yaoi is desirable, and why you yourself may find it desirable and ultimately helps your writing and character design for yaoi games.

Heck, everything you will ever learn helps you make better art of any form.

[Aleema]

Wow, what happened in here after I unsubscribed. =P

I used to dislike BL, but only because I didn't know what the heck it was, nor allow myself the chance to experience it. It puts a person in an emotional place to just enjoy what they're seeing, rather than worry about who's who in the relationship. And 2x the eyecandy. I figure this is the same effect for men on GxG. I don't see it, or Yaoi, as dangerous to society, or any more grotesque than GxG. But then, I think the whole crock about video games being dangerous is laughable, too. It's all just escapist fantasy that, if we allow a certain freedom of speech and art, was bound to happen and has been happening from the dawn of time. I think the adversity to BL in the beginning is that there isn't much experience with it, or exposure. On the opposite, I feel like GxG is being shoved down my throat with gratuitous female makeout scenes in TV shows and movies. And any BxB romance scenes I've seen (outside of award winning, break-through, omg-I-can't-believe-they-just-did-that stuff) has been treated as comedy. With this kind of bias in the media, I would think it only natural for GxG to be more widely accepted than BL. Shame, too ...

[Aka-kami]

...

It seems that I have lost the ability to comprehend what I have just read.

Excuse me if I sound rude or unreasonable.