3d realtime characters for a VN/adventure?

[jack_norton]

I think I already discussed this (but not realtime I think), but forgive me, I'm becoming old. Plus I have the flu (or some sort of).
What do you think about 3d real-time characters for a VN/adventure? To be clear something like Daz3d models, which you can see well in some screens from my older games:
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/magicstones01.jpg
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/magicstones02.jpg
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/gk05.jpg
about that quality, but animated in real-time with everything you can imagine (like a real camera of a movie). Something seen already on Farenheit, or Dragon Age or Mass Effect for example (of course at less quality, those are top AAA games).
I'm asking because with Unity3d is now possible to have that quality in a game (enough polygon details), albeit investing quite a lot of $$$ on 3d models. On the other hand once you have a model you can have unlimited poses or scenes, and have animations which could add a lot to a story-based game (think about dancing, or caressing a face, or anything else you want to imagine).

I have my opinion on this but I don't want to say it until others have spoken

[Aleema]

I think that will be neat. Sure, I prefer 2D games, but I've only gotten upset with 3D when it hindered the storytelling (have to walk the 3D character to a coffee pot to get coffee, and then back to the computer, etc). If showing text would be slower with the 3D characters, to force lip-sync, it might be annoying, but in general, it's a step towards those AAA games you're aiming for. Also, make sure the models you get aren't weird-looking. =P

[number473]

imo, 3D isn't worth doing if the end result is not as good, smooth, and shiny-looking as 2D art that could be done easier and with better results. But then again, I'm a bit picky about it and I consider that even the big-budget movies have only reached an acceptable level in 3D animation in the last few years. In general, I find 3D art that is not perfect a distraction from the game. I would much rather have 2D art of even a mediocre level. This may just be me that is fussy, though.

[azureXtwilight]

imo, 3D isn't worth doing if the end result is not as good, smooth, and shiny-looking as 2D art that could be done easier and with better results. But then again, I'm a bit picky about it and I consider that even the big-budget movies have only reached an acceptable level in 3D animation in the last few years. In general, I find 3D art that is not perfect a distraction from the game. I would much rather have 2D art of even a mediocre level. This may just be me that is fussy, though.

I somehow feels the same way, so it's not just you.

[blakjak]

3d characters could have appeal, but there are a few issues :

- if you'd be going for Daz3d type meshes, your game would look instantly generic and amateurish.

- The character models would have to be modeled specifically for your game, and if you want to have different clothing, then this adds more work.

- People are more forgiving towards 2d than 3d.

[jack_norton]

Ok so after some answers I can share what I think:
I prefer 2d too I never liked 3d characters, ever. I much prefer hand-drawn art to ANYTHING done in 3d. Sure some 3d stuff looks beautiful (I fell in love for Morrigan character design of Dragon Age, she's superbly done) but still, I would pick any picture from Deji, Rebecca (artist of Heileen 1-2, Bionic Heart, etc) or any other good 2d artist.
Is a pity because of the gameplay possibilities: in full 3d real-time you can do a lot of things regarding interaction or game immersion (think about rain falling down, leaving footsteps in the snow, and so on).
Maybe one day I'll be able to afford paying someone to make a 2d- animated game, who knows But I don't think I'll be spending money for 3d real-time models for this kind of game (for other kind of games I might).

[Codexus]

Well I like 3D. As a programmer, I have written several 3D engines from scratch so I certainly like that aspect of 3D. I also like creating things in 3D, partially because I suck at drawing so that's a way for me to avoid that problem.

Anyway that doesn't mean I don't like 2D too. I'm glad there are both types of games and even some mixing the two. I don't think that 3D should be ignored for hobbyist/indie games. It can be a little more work but it's perfectly doable if you don't aim for crazy realistic details like AAA games.

The important thing is doing what you like.

[Jake]

IMO the reason 2D is often preferrable is that it's possible to put a lot of character into not just the design of the characters and the pose of the characters, but things like the kind of lines that make up the drawing, the kind of shading you're using, and so on. Things which aren't so easy to impart feeling with when you're using an automatic renderer that works off a bunch of polys.

Look at something like Eternal Sonata, and at first glance it seems like a nicely-done 2D-in-3D effect, and while you can tell there's a depth dimension, the outlining and shading is done pretty well. But if you compare it to a good artist who works in the same style, you'll see that the artist goes out of their way to make some lines thicker and some bits thinner, to taper off and/or leave gaps in some places, and all these things add up and add feeling to a drawing which is very hard to impart in a 3D renderer... and the game looks kind of stiff in comparison.

I could believe that someone could draw a 2D bit of art that looked like the stuff in Eternal Sonata, but I'd find it difficult to believe - at least at the moment - that someone had a realtime renderer running which took properly-3D data and produced something on a par with a good manga-style artist.


(3D has lots of advantages over 2D, of course, as has been mentioned before - flexibility, generally, the ability to make the image do what you want. So I don't believe there's a single answer where one is always better for all kinds of games, it depends on what you're doing with the images.)

[jack_norton]

Well I thought was clear, but of course, I'm talking about 3d FOR STORY BASED GAMES, like visual novels, adventures, etc.
For wargames, FPS or RPG real-time 3d is good and sometimes essential. But a trend I've noticed even in some top AAA games (The Witcher, Anno 1404) is to have the main game in full 3d realtime and the cutscenes or narration part in 2d painted canvas with some nice special effects (hard to explain, but is very cool to watch).

[pkt]

Well I work in 2d and 3d in various parts of the worlds that they encompass and I like them both about as much. 3d can be simpler to get quick and precise models out in multiple poses fast or even as a basis for 2d images and you also have to consider that there are various things that can be done in 3d that 2d can't easily do and vice versa. The thing is though with 3d you can use 2d stuff as well. I think for some of the games I'm thinking about. Having 2c characters on a 3d background might do the trick but the opposite may be true for some people in other cases. But with 3d at least you have a choice whether you want to mix the two or something. The best part is the animation doesn't need to be coded a lot of the time. But yeah for effects such as outlines with various thicknesses and such like that there are examples where it works and does so well. You might need to learn about shader programming though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWrC98-ftxY

It may be an oldish ps2 game but it showed what the engines could do. Especially with outlines.
Look at the DBZ games for PS3 for a more updated look at those types of graphics.

[DaFool]

You know, I've been pondering almost the exact same thing... what to do with a 3D engine such as Unity. I like 2.5D even if it weren't all the rage these days, so you either have a 3D character on a handpainted 2D backdrop (JRPGs from PS1 era), or you have 2D characters animated against 3D backgrounds (Gonzo anime... RIP). For a game engine it would be really neat if somehow you can integrate 2D hand-animated sprites against a fully 3D world. But I think that would be expensive.

So its simpler to stick to 2D sprites for 'biological' objects and 3D models for 'mechanical' objects.

[LVUER]

If there are lots of dynamic scene or fast-paced action sequence, I think 3D will be worth it. But if not, I think it's better to stick to 2D.

[pkt]

Check out Disgaea. It uses 2d sprites and 3d bg's. It's cutscenes are all vn style as in all 2d but the gameplay is like the earlier mention.

[Fireserpent]

Yeah real time 3d is lovely when done well.

But it's a -ton- of work too, and you need to model, texture, rig and animate most of it yourself, since most premade 3d content out there (like poser, daz etc) is for rendered art only. With some exceptions of course..

I like working with rendered 3d art, since I have control over the end result.. But of course you don't get the live movement of realtime..

Oh well, there's always a tradeoff.

[Wintermoon]

What do you think about 3d real-time characters for a VN/adventure?

Yuck.

To be clear something like Daz3d models, which you can see well in some screens from my older games:
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/magicstones01.jpg
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/magicstones02.jpg
http://www.winterwolves.com/images/gk05.jpg
about that quality, but animated in real-time with everything you can imagine (like a real camera of a movie).

Still yuck.

Something seen already on Farenheit, or Dragon Age or Mass Effect for example (of course at less quality, those are top AAA games).

All those games you mentioned look ugly. So, still yuck.