Production Cost of Commercial VN (made with Ren'Py thus far)

[papillon]

Um, no seriously no. You forget to count that we artist lost the time we spent on creating those arts! The idea of me spending hours over something I never wanted to draw in the first place, and the person didn't give me a single cent is rebuking. You can't just say we still have the art so it's slightly better. No, it's not! It's the same way as the commissioner wouldn't want to pay for nothing. We don't spend our time for nothing either. I can't speak for everyone, but drawing commissions are hardly something fun. It's a job. And no one likes to work for free.

Moral of story: Nobody likes to get cheated regardless of circumtances.

And if you looked at what I actually said, you'll notice I pointed out that it's not MUCH better and still obviously sucks. I'm not saying anyone should want to work for free, obviously. I'm generally the one going around trying to explain the case for why people need to be paid so that they can eat, and earlier in this thread I pointed out that a worker's time is valuable.

The point remains that an artist in the position of making art and not getting paid is <i>marginally</i> better off than someone who pays money and gets no art. Depending on what the art is, there's a slim chance that it can be sold for another purpose, or bits of it reworked for other projects, or at the least displayed in portfolio. A ripped-off buyer has nothing.

This is not an excuse for people to rip you off, just a plea for sympathy for the buyer's end of things.

[Jake]

in general, if you're suing for even $500, it's well worth the $70 or however bucks.

Not to mention that I don't know what it's like in the US, but I seem to recall reading that in the UK, an award from the small claims court automatically includes damages to cover your filing fees, as well. But it's also a good reason to keep records of your communications and agreements with people.

If you're commissioning someone for properly large sums of money, you could also look for an escrow agent who will keep hold of the payment until he also receives the artwork, and then release both to the respective parties at the same time. Like that, everyone's safe so long as the escrow agent is trustworthy, and that kind of service should have references... and of course, you can pick one which is in your locale to make it easier to sue them if you need to. I've not looked into it myself, but I expect the fees from the agent are too high to make it worthwhile for small commissions, though.

(That said, it was brought to my attention recently that mangabullet.com has a commission framework set up around this kind of idea, maybe it's worth investigating? I expect there's probably other sites around which do similar things.)

[Mirage]

And if you looked at what I actually said, you'll notice I pointed out that it's not MUCH better and still obviously sucks. I'm not saying anyone should want to work for free, obviously. I'm generally the one going around trying to explain the case for why people need to be paid so that they can eat, and earlier in this thread I pointed out that a worker's time is valuable.

The point remains that an artist in the position of making art and not getting paid is <i>marginally</i> better off than someone who pays money and gets no art. Depending on what the art is, there's a slim chance that it can be sold for another purpose, or bits of it reworked for other projects, or at the least displayed in portfolio. A ripped-off buyer has nothing.

This is not an excuse for people to rip you off, just a plea for sympathy for the buyer's end of things.

Actually this is the kind of mentality I dislike the most. I understand your point well, that you mean us artists are slightly better, as in like a tiny wee bit better.

If you say it that way, then I will say this: You don't lose any time, right? You only lost some money, and for bonus point, you get some experiences which is not to use the same artist and be more careful! <---Does that sound awful to your ear? That's how I feel when you say we artists are off slightly better.

Please, don't say such hurtful thing. You are comparing an awful situation with another awful situation and trying to justify which is more awful. I have commissioned people, and people had commissioned me. I can feel pain in both ways, and I tell you that regardless being commissioner or artist, I don't see which one is slightly better off when getting cheated!

[Tsuki-chan]

Hmmm, it highly depends on how much you are paying right? If you are paying say 100 dollars a piece, I agree. If you are paying for merely 10 dollars, then it's a bit too much to ask, right? That's like going to street stand and asking for service quality of a high class restaurant.

More likely than not, though, you've seen examples of the artist's work before you commission them. So, even if they decide to offer their services at a low price, it's not unreasonable for the commissioner to expect work of at least the same quality as their examples.

[Ren]

@ Mirage: I think she was just trying to be sympathetic, not to hurt your feelings. It seems to me your example is neither here or there either- if she commissions someone and they disappear, she has nothing in her hands. Really, there's your situations as an artist and the one of someone who commissions the art. Both can lead to disappointment.

[Jake]

You don't lose any time, right? You only lost some money

If the commission was fairly priced in the first place, then the time and the money that each party are out are even. They cancel each other out.


So the commissioner who gets ripped off gains the experience that one particular artist is a scumbag, which really isn't monetisable in the future. The artist who gets ripped off loses exactly as much as the commissioner (time=money), and also gains the knowledge that this one particular client is a scumbag to be avoided.

But on top of that, they also have a piece of art which they can potentially - no matter how unlikely, it's still possible - sell to someone else at some point down the line for zero effort and just as much profit as they would have had in the first place. They have a piece which - especially if it's not something they would have drawn without the commission - they can put in their portfolio and demonstrate their flexibility to future prospective clients. And they have the extra experience that drawing that piece gave them, a little bit of skill level-up that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

The commissioner who got ripped off has none of this - the artist is undeniably in a better position. As Papillon said, it's only very barely a better position - both people have been ripped off and are in a very unfortunate situation! - but it's better, by that tiny little bit.


And I say this as someone who has been commissioned for art in the past.

[LinWest]

Most of the time I just agree on a price with a commissioner, and I haven't had any problems... yet. What would an official online contract look like? Or is just having them say how much they'll pay you and the terms in say, an email, count as an official contract?

[papillon]

I usually do up a small plain english contract explaining what I'm asking people to do, at what stages they'll get paid and by what method, what each sides' rights are to the art once it's completed, and whether there are any deadlines, then have both people sign it. Just for my records really.... I've never referred to any of those contracts later, it really doesn't come up. But just in case.

Also, writing the details down helps make sure you aren't misunderstanding what the other person wants.

[Topagae]

@LinWest

There's no such thing as an "Official" contract in most places. It varies from place to place, but in almost all of them, any sort of agreement is a contact. If I were to say "I will do X for you Lin", that is a verbal contract. A written one too if I wrote it on the forums or email, but they're harder to prove in court because they're not as recognized. Generally to make them more recognized you would do something like get it notarized, and have some witnesses. Which means you'd sign it in front of a licensed third party. You could also bring it to some lawyers and let them mumbo-jumbo it up for you, expensive though.

[Topagae]

@Papillion

Very smart, in most countries I think, those would be in fact legally binding contracts.

[lordcloudx]

I'd recommend adding a simple separability/severability clause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severability_clause
Provided that the clause itself is given legal effect in the jurisdiction the contract is under, it should help to safeguard the integrity of the other stipulations inside the contract should any parts of it be struck down as illegal/invalid.

[Deji]

Regarding commissioning somebody, I've learned keeping a good communication and a good relationship is key to success.
You avoid getting annoying changes requested when you keep a good communication and show the client your progress every now and then, and you avoid getting your client worried if you're not working on their commission if you honestly tell them what's going on and apologize honestly if you haven't contacted them for a while. I've never come across somebody that doesn't understand life getting in the way, art blocks and other things whenever I get delayed with things.

I agree with mirage: drawing commissions is a job like any other, it's not something we particularly do for fun (though sometimes some pieces are fun to do).
I think both situations are equally frustrating: when you commission somebody and disappears and when you get commissioned and the person runs away with the art for free.
A person's work time equals money. If you commission somebody and they just disappear with your money, is like if you worked for nothing,. just like the artist not getting paid.
And honestly, when somebody runs away not paying for a commission, you only want to burn the piece/destroy the files of that commission out of frustration, not to display it or show it to other people and then having the thief proudly say "see that art? that artist made it for me and I didn't pay them >D" =_=

I did some small work without getting paid a couple of times (and a few people running disappearing with free sketches)... so now I ask for at least 50% upfront if I've never worked with that person before. If I trust the person, I can take payment whenever. I usually discuss the terms of the payment before starting work in any case.

[jack_norton]

If I trust the person, I can take payment whenever. I usually discuss the terms of the payment before starting work in any case.

Working this way is really the best. I've built up this kind of relationship with several artist I worked with in the past, and indeed good communication (email, twitter or even chat) is the best. From that you immediately see if the artist (and the commissioner) is serious or not.
I really think when working over internet, reputation has more value than any contract. Especially for few thousands dollars nobody is ever going to sue or do anything (on both sides).
It's not uncommon that many artist that worked once for me, for the next commissions began the work already before even getting paid, knowing that I would keep my word. Of course, this happens only when certain kind of relationship are established, I had some bad experiences too in the past like everyone.

[kinougames]

How does one tackle customers' growing expectations for more quality at a lower price point?

The days of 20 dollar casual downloadables seem to be over, thanks to portals experimenting with bundles and $7 price points. I've read many people also complain that the price of a game should be proportional to its production cost, and that only AAA games should be charging $50-$60. Midrange games, they say, should be in $30-$40, and indies in $10-20, and it seems to be happening. Torchlight is $20 and Aztaka is $15... both of those games have very high production values. How does one compete with that?

You make your game unique. You do something that hasn't been done as well as you're about to do it. People will spend a lot more if they can't buy something anywhere else; and when that new thing is done to perfect, they'll spend even more than that.

[kinougames]

This is a common error people make, at least for the US. Even in the more expensive states, like NY, it only costs about $50-70 bucks to file a claim in small claims court, the max prize of which is from 2K to 5K depending on state. There are other added pieces that -could- make it cost more, but in general, if you're suing for even $500, it's well worth the $70 or however bucks.

But how about international contract? Over the internet for example?

Unfortunately, international law becomes a whole new ballgame. However, you CAN sue people from the US (if you are also in the US) who are doing work for you, even if you live in two different states on other sides of the country. Furthermore, I believe the person out of state may be forced to go to court in the state of filing (which is a slightly mean, but added bonus for you).