Replay and Multiple Endings for Mystery Games

[Topagae]

A new thread would be good.

I actually had a lot of hand in researching/studying real person AI. The idea that you can populate the world with random people,places, give it a backstory of events that shape things. And let a bunch of AI's capable of learning loose.

The closest mainstream thing would probably be the sims.

The best story-telling version of this would be Dwarf Fortress.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_Fortress

I actually pondered exactly this (My concentration was AI and computer security). I was writing some neural networks and training sets to populate an academy of Students at a hero's training school. Lame? Yes, but I wasn't going for originality.

But the world and everyone in it would be intelligently randomly generated. The world and everything in it has a history, the shapes all the people/places/things in it, all the things the player encounter would all start out with backgrounds, likes, dislikes, and relationships with one another. And they could all learn.

Who would you be? You'd be the new kid, stirring up all the stuff already there. Probably with a character creator that allows you to choose background stuff instead of being randomly generated like the others. I wasn't too sure it would work because life WOULD go on when your player doesn't involve themselves with stuff, it would change how the game is played entirely because usually everything and anything in a game is usually planned for, and focussed on the player. In this "Game" it'd be more like reality X_x

I stopped because I needed to get a real job and I couldn't afford grad school. I also didn't know if people would want to "Play" this game, and even if they did. I doubt it'd be profitable enough to makeup for the costs X_x.

[sake-bento]

Maybe some mod can cut those last posts into a new thread
A system like SH would probably work better indeed, but would still be a pain: in SH the various character you can romance never met each other (except for a short scene of Yuza and Janimee), so you don't have to check for consistency for that.
In a detective story usually the relationships between each character are essential for the story and for determining who is the murder and the motivations (y hates z, y loves x), so it would still be lot of work, unless the characters never met each other in a scene (maybe they're in custody or some other reason but should be plausible).

I requested a thread split~

That's a good point about character interaction. If the story played out more like a crime procedural (Law & Order, Castle) that could cut down on a lot. Each of the characters is usually interviewed separately, that would probably make things easier and cut down on the amount of cross checking needed.

Something like that is harder to write authentically, though. An amateur detective can do whatever he pleases, but a pro detective needs to follow official procedures (or knowingly break them). I have a police consultant for the Jisei series so that I can write Gurski with some level of realism, and it's already difficult for just one of the supporting cast to have to play by all the rules and remain at least semi-believable. (And I still break tons of rules with Gurski, anyway.) UNLESS you make up an entirely new reality or sci-fi it up so that you can create whatever police procedures you feel like. XD

[Topagae]

Can't you just take some literary liberties with realistic procedures? I can imagine it really slows things down because CSI would be like 99% paperwork and meetings if it was even slightly more realistic.

[jack_norton]

UNLESS you make up an entirely new reality or sci-fi it up so that you can create whatever police procedures you feel like. XD

Heh, that's why I like fantasy/sci-fi settings and even for Vera I put the supernatural monsters as murderers so I always have an easy way out

[Topagae]

Easy way out. Or. AWESOME? Seriously, supernatural makes everything better ;3

[sake-bento]

You definitely can take SOME liberties. I took quite a few with Jisei, and I intend to take more.

But you have to pick and choose your battles. We watch or read these stories because we want to see police in action. Therefore, it has to be believable to at least some extent. DNA labwork takes weeks to process, and mere minutes in most crime dramas. We all accept that they're bending reality so that we don't actually have to watch the characters chill for a couple weeks. But if the police break in without a warrant, forensics makes up magical science procedures that don't exist, or someone calls area divisions in LA "precincts" instead of "districts," then someone is bound to notice, and it'll ruin the sense of actually watching the police at work.

For comparison, CSI takes many more liberties than Law & Order when it comes to how grounded in reality they are. While CSI is a very popular show, the liberties they take actually turn off a lot of mystery genre fans.

[papillon]

A game that came through my hands in the IGF called "The Art of Murder" was also working on procedural mystery generation, although of a more simple kind than the sort with lots of AIs bouncing off each other. (Also, it had neat visuals.)

At least in the version I played, though, while the details of the crime varied, the steps you needed to take to solve it were almost identical from game to game. I think it was still being worked on, though, so it might have evolved since then.

[Topagae]

AI is a complex beast, complex and incredibly not-well understood or solidified. Especially when you give your NPC's the ability to learn, they WILL start doing things you hadn't planned for, and you DO NOT want. Generally why generating the mystery ahead of time was fine, but making the other NPC's act just as random while you solve it would be nightmarish, so solving the mystery would have to be very very similar from game to game to avoid a horrible game experience.

Cause what if the generator randomly generated YOU were the murderer? *DUN DUN DUUUUN*

[papillon]

so solving the mystery would have to be very very similar from game to game to avoid a horrible game experience.

Play the game I'm talking about first so you know what I'm saying. (Well, if I could remember the correct name so I could link you to it! AHA - it's called the art of CRIME, not murder. But the official webpage lists it as "coming soon" so I guess they are still working on it and it's not available to the general public. Never mind.)

in my test playthroughs, the *actual steps* taken to reach the good ending were far too similar, in ways that could easily have been altered with more dev time. The (blank) was always hidden in the (blank), for example, even though it was put there by entirely different people.

[Topagae]

Ah my bad, I thought you were talking about a completely, or mostly completely, generated game.

[sake-bento]

(Well, if I could remember the correct name so I could link you to it! AHA - it's called the art of CRIME, not murder. But the official webpage lists it as "coming soon" so I guess they are still working on it and it's not available to the general public. Never mind.)

That looks like a crazy sweet game. ::bookmarks::

The site says that each version is generated procedurally. Does that mean that even if Mr. X did it in both versions of your playthrough, there would be different clues to point you in his direction?

[papillon]

I'm not sure how much of the game is generated. The relationships of the characters to each other are, and you have to find these out in the game, but the number of characters is the same, and the basic STRUCTURE of relationships is similar... iirc, there is a Victim, a Murderer, a Victim's Associate, and a Relative (I can't remember if the relative belongs to the victim or the murderer). The relationship between the victim and the murderer varies - it could be husband/wife, boyfriend/girlfriend or probably other things. Same for the other relationships, there are lots of possibilities. The location and implements used in the murder vary. The address the crime takes place at varies and there are different types of clues to establish that address.

But some key elements were always in the same place, and that stood out when so much of the rest of the game was flexible.

As they're clearly not done with it, much may have changed since my IGF copy!

[Showsni]

Cause what if the generator randomly generated YOU were the murderer? *DUN DUN DUUUUN*

Like in Cluedo? "Okay, I'm ready to make an accusation! It was myself, Professor Plum, here in the Conservatory with this dagger! Ha! I'm right! Wait a minute, now I'm going to be hanged..."

[Topagae]

I always wanted a game like that. Where you're some kind of amnesiac, you call EVERYONE to the parlor cause you're about to figure it out. Then you do and kill everyone.

[Fluffycrow]

AI is a complex beast, complex and incredibly not-well understood or solidified. Especially when you give your NPC's the ability to learn, they WILL start doing things you hadn't planned for, and you DO NOT want. Generally why generating the mystery ahead of time was fine, but making the other NPC's act just as random while you solve it would be nightmarish, so solving the mystery would have to be very very similar from game to game to avoid a horrible game experience.

Cause what if the generator randomly generated YOU were the murderer? *DUN DUN DUUUUN*

I sense a movie plot.

But, on topic, having multiple "good" endings in a mystery game would be awesome. In the VN I'm working on now, there will be an ending where the MC doesn't solve to mystery, but another character does, and everyone essentially lives happily ever after anyways (Except, well, the murderer.). So, yeah, Jisei with different "good" endings would be completely awesome. Except, let's not get Chance naked.