Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

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#46 Post by Topagae » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:59 pm

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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#47 Post by Crocosquirrel » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:28 pm

Having worked with resell sites in the past, I can tell you that it's not all teacups and roses that you describe. First, you have to make it through their selection process(which is in many cases extraordinarily difficult), followed immediately by the site taking a cut of each sale, and after you've gotten all that down, you can deal with it being pirated anyway.

If Valve gets shut down(or *gasp* goes bankrupt), or whatever, then there's no way to retrieve it, and all the hard work gets lost.

Wait... Pytom already said that. In the original thread.
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#48 Post by Topagae » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:37 pm

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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#49 Post by papillon » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:39 pm

If you can't make it through their selection process, then odds are you don't have a very good game on your hands.
Blatantly not the case - plenty of good games don't get on, and plenty of games can't make it through their selection process but are later added because they get huge amounts of accolades from the rest of the world and steam goes "Um... Forget what we said earlier, sell here now!"

It should be extremely obvious that any 'quality-limited' selection process has huge stumbling blocks in its way if it's trying to be a wide-ranging site. If there are a limited number of people judging the "quality" of an entry, their personal tastes and genre knowledge will play an enormous part in the decisions they make. If they're unfamiliar with a genre, they won't know how to judge it. If they aren't personally interested in a particular art style, they may reject it out of hand despite there being a fanbase for it.

That doesn't make Steam evil, but it's frustrating when the general perception starts thinking of Steam as "the" marketplace when it's in fact a limited one. There are a lot of users out there who insist that all games SHOULD be sold on steam and that clearly if your game works Steam will accept it so if it's not on Steam then either it doesn't run at all or you're too stupid to have tried submitting it. Which... just isn't so.

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#50 Post by Topagae » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:09 pm

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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#51 Post by Crocosquirrel » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:47 pm

As far as Steam going down being a threat, most games that are sold thereto require Steam authentication to run at all. Valve going bankrupt could create a huge issue.

Besides, Steam gets pissy when it can't call home for awhile.
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#52 Post by Topagae » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:09 pm

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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#53 Post by Crocosquirrel » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:43 am

I've honestly never met a hard drive still alive after 20 years. CDs tend to have a 7-year lifespan, DVDs no more than ten years, and hard drives usually about five. The longest-lived drive I have ever seen was twelve, and it sat in the same well-ventilated clean room for the entire time it lived.

Besides, have you ever replaced a hard drive and copied *everything* over onto the new drive?

Even if it weren't a pain in the butt, I guarantee at least one program on the drive doesn't work, most likely an installation piece that has some very specific registry keys that didn't get copied. I'd rather have a complete installer downloadable, or a piece of physical media I can copy at my need and use, rather than have to rebuy from a company that might not be there in ten years.

Either way, backup, backup, backup. Even if your security thingy might not work very well, look at who you're deterring.

The serious peeps aren't deterrable.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#54 Post by PyTom » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:54 am

DarkSpartan wrote:Besides, have you ever replaced a hard drive and copied *everything* over onto the new drive?
Yes, a few weeks ago.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#55 Post by Crocosquirrel » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:37 am

A rare thing, especially if it was a system drive, which is more what I was getting at. Perhaps a tad more care in choosing words, rather than a stream of consciousness would help matters.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#56 Post by LVUER » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:47 am

Only 10 years? Some of my CDs have been around for more than 12 years old (I bought them way before 1995) and they're still working just fine... Theoretically, if you put your CD and DVD in best storing condition, they will be in their perfect condition even after decades.

If you never met CD/DVD that more than 10 years old, then they make a mistake when storing those discs.

Oh, and I've used all of my HDDs for more than 5 years and they're still works just fine. Though HDD bounds to dead without any prior notice even if you "store" them right since they have electronic components.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#57 Post by Crocosquirrel » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:36 am

Those perfect conditions are hard to maintain when you have a game that requires the disc, for example, as is the case with games on most consoles, or nearly every game commercially produced from roughly 1995 until just a couple of years ago. Additionally, the requirements for "perfect" storage simply aren't known to the average user, and if they are achieved, are accomplished to what amounts to good fortune.

On the flip side, there are a great many CDs/DVDs that get badly abused, scratched, gouged, or left around a light source and degrade rapidly. Commercially produced discs are less prone to that last than your average archive disc, and thus ten-year lifespans under optimal conditions can readily be realized.

But seriously... How many people to you know that keep their purchased discs in their original jewel cases? Probably more than get a jewel case for every CD they burn, but not nearly as many as hang onto their DVD cases. Thus the reason DVDs seem to have longer lifespans.

As for abusing discs, ask any number of families that have small children.

Either way, it makes a far more reliable medium than a Hard Drive, which can fail just because it feels the urge one morning. I've been a computer tech for years innumerable, and there are times when storage mediums of all stripes simply expire. Proper precautions will help that, but will never eliminate it entirely. Best warranty in the HDD biz is Seagate at five years, and even they can be sticky about it if it looks like it's taken even the slightest shock. Your average CD manufacturer is closer to a year.

Which reminds me: Buy stock in Memorex. At least then monthly backup habit will see a return.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#58 Post by Jake » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:29 am

DarkSpartan wrote: On the flip side, there are a great many CDs/DVDs that get badly abused, scratched, gouged, or left around a light source and degrade rapidly. Commercially produced discs are less prone to that last than your average archive disc, and thus ten-year lifespans under optimal conditions can readily be realized.
Um.

Firstly, if your 'archive' discs are getting badly abused, scratched, gouged or left around in the light source, you're just not taking care of them - backups are supposed to be left in a cupboard somewhere until you need them, not used as frisbees!

Secondly, though - and more importantly - there's actually a huge difference in manufacturing between a CDR and a commercial pressed CD, and the commercial CD is just naturally more robust. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a CDR I wrote when I was at university ten years ago was now unreadable; I would be surprised if the first music CD I got in 1989 or so didn't still play just as well today as it did the day I first listened to it. I also wouldn't be surprised if that's the kind of CD LVUER is thinking of...

(And as it goes, I don't copy over entire disks verbatim, but I do tend to keep all my installers - especially things I've bought - in one place, and I certainly copy that over when I replace a hard drive.)





Anyway, everyone should back up to magnetic tape and keep it in controlled-conditions vaults at their bank.
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#59 Post by Crocosquirrel » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:14 am

Jake wrote:
Firstly, if your 'archive' discs are getting badly abused, scratched, gouged or left around in the light source, you're just not taking care of them - backups are supposed to be left in a cupboard somewhere until you need them, not used as frisbees!
I never suggested that I do this, but that that's the fate of a great many discs that do get made.
Secondly, though - and more importantly - there's actually a huge difference in manufacturing between a CDR and a commercial pressed CD, and the commercial CD is just naturally more robust. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a CDR I wrote when I was at university ten years ago was now unreadable; I would be surprised if the first music CD I got in 1989 or so didn't still play just as well today as it did the day I first listened to it. I also wouldn't be surprised if that's the kind of CD LVUER is thinking of...
Completely agreed, down to the assumption of which discs LVUER was talking about. Those discs do degrade over time and frequent use, though. That much I've seen.
(And as it goes, I don't copy over entire disks verbatim, but I do tend to keep all my installers - especially things I've bought - in one place, and I certainly copy that over when I replace a hard drive.)
That's my general default.
Anyway, everyone should back up to magnetic tape and keep it in controlled-conditions vaults at their bank.
That might be a *tad* overboard, and certainly expensive. To say nothing of your friendly neighborhood EMP passing through ;)
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Re: Copy-Protection (was: Downloadable Games are Important)

#60 Post by LVUER » Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:17 am

Actually, I was talking both kind of CD/DVD since I myself have both (and survived for more than 10 years). Though most of my old CD collection is commercial pressed CD (since it's PSX games discs). And I put them all in proper CD case (or at least, in special CD container).

Since we're talking about archiving, I make an assumption that we're talking about CD that sole purpose is to keep backed-up data (game or data). We should keep such discs in cupboard or something, not out in the open, without their case (or worse, give them to your son to be played at). Even if you play your discs before deciding to store them (like I did), I doubt you use that discs over and over for 10 whole years. If you do, it's better to make the image or copy the whole discs to your HDD (or another disc).

When I said "the best storing condition", it's only theoretically. And if you could achieve that, supposedly your CD life-expectancy would be unlimited. Of course it would be extremely difficult for normal civilian to do that (I heard there is a specialized commercial cabinet that could preserve CD in the best storing condition, but not only it's very expensive, it's also consume huge electricity).

But, if you take just a little care on how and where do you keep your discs, your CD will be last much longer. I didn't found such place at my home from the first. It costs me several tens of CDs before I know such places (it would be differ from house to house, and country to country... fortunately, I live in tropical climate country where temperature and humidity is stable). I've once misplaced my discs at "wrong" container and discover that my discs were covered in fungi.

Anyway, the best way to preserve data is to back up multiple times in multiple media. And keep them in right place, out of the reach of your children... no, make it ANYONE else's hands.
-not too humid
-not too hot/cold
-not under direct light source (especially sun)
-not near strong electromagnetic current
-not near strong smell or other chemicals
-keep it inside specialized discs container/case (if you don't want individual disc case that takes lots of space, you could use container that could keep 10-100 discs at once, though I prefer 10-50, not more since your discs could break because of the weight).
-and perhaps the most difficult one, if you place it inside a "locked" furniture/cabinet, be careful on where do you put your discs. From my personal experience, book shelves/cabinet is the best. If that place could preserve your book well, it also could do the same to your discs. So be careful with places that could make your book pages "become yellow".

I understand that several of those condition is very difficult to achieve in non-tropical country (lucky me ^_^ ) and surely cost quite a bit of money.
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