Opinions about romance sub-plots?

[Rina]

I was wondering about the opinions about romance sub-plots in an RPG/non-romance oriented game. I'm talking the romances you see in Dragon Age (Alistair <3), Jade Empire, Mass Effect - basically any sort of Bioware RPG (or any other game with romances).

Do you expect a lot of detail in these romances? Do you expect more than one romance option? Is it something that you think could enhance the game, and should a romance affect an ending? And if it should, then how heavily?

I'm working on a VN right now, and because I'm secretly a romance-junkie I've been thinking about making some NPC's 'obtainable'. Personally, I prefer the romances you see in RPGs more than dating sims, simply because it's a little more meaningful and you get a greater depth of their personality (since the character wasn't created specifically to be romanced, they actually play a role to the story), whereas with dating sims it's normally "be smart and lose weight and wear that dress he likes and you'll get a pretty CG". Though this might be because I haven't played a dating sim that's really gotten to me the way Bioware romances have.

Thoughts? Opinions? Yay or nay?

[broken_angel]

I personally love side-romances in games like that.
(Throughout the Fire Emblem games, I was secretly hoping that if I developed two characters' relationships enough, they would actually get together...unfortunately, the closest I got was an ending where something was slightly hinted at with Sothe and Micaiah.)

It definitely gives more depth to the story because it gives the characters a more...human feel, I guess. It makes them more relatable. Suddenly, it's not all about saving the world from some supreme power, the likes of which we could never imagine in our own world, but there's something else...something we all yearn and strive for in our own lives: love.

If you do give a romance option, though, it seems weird to only have one obtainable character. In reality, any member of your party should be eligible...after all, when you travel in such close quarters with someone for a time, you're bound to develop a close bond, if not romantic feelings towards each other (I keep thinking of Xena: Warrior Princess, har har).

As for how much it affects the ending...it depends on how much focus you want to give the romance aspect. Personally, if I were just doing the romance as a sub-plot, then I would only make the romance affect the ending if it was pursued. The ending you get should be determined largely by the gameplay, since that's the main focus, but if a romance was pursued, then that would lead to a slightly different ending. Instead of just "You won the battle against the evil tyrant and saved the world," it would be "You won the battle against the evil tyrant, saved the world, and lived happily ever after with the love of your life."

And it sounds to me like you just haven't played the right dating sims.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Hell yeah. I adore romantic sub-plots. I would like to see them in most games (Fallout should definitely have them, I would have had Boon so fast...)

I agree with a lot of what broken-angel said. I believe it makes them more human and adds a extra layer to the story telling. Humans are rarely single-minded about everything and emotions play a big role in what we do. I think it is a bit unnatural that there isn't something going on when people are in a group trying to save the world. Something else to live for if you would.

Multiple obtainable characters would be good since we all have different tastes in characters. I also think that the romance should play some part in the ending, otherwise your choices will seem hallow by the end. It could vary as to how much, but it should definitely have some follow through.

I personally like romantic sub-plots more than romantic plots. Just as it seems weird to have a plot with no romance, it feels weird for romance to have no plot. I think it is all about layers. You need to have multiple layers to your story, different things for the player to do and read into.

[jack_norton]

In my WIP RPG Planet Stronghold I'll have romance sub-plots. I think is cool to know more the various characters. Just playing the main game you don't know much of each of them, but if you play the romance subplot you discover about their past (some aren't romance, just boost your relationship but has no romance ending).
As long as they're optional and not required by the game (some players don't care about it, even if I think is a minority) is good to have

[Aleema]

Count me in as a big fan of romance as subplots. I actually pretty much prefer them over dating sims. I mean, if it's a good romance story, awesome! But dating simulators where you raise stats and get a confession out of the guy for the ending don't really satisfy my need for a love story, and the love is almost obligatorily shallow. It was just a fun game with eye candy. I've played games/watched movies/read books with an express purpose of enjoying a romance story that probably wasn't even there! That's how hidden I don't mind them. If a story revolves around love, it better be really good and detailed. We've seen all of the love arcs already! We want context and situations now. (Heck, some people even want just the taboo now.) I agree that it characterizes more than any simple slice-of-life story, since someone's character is defined by how they deal with conflict. So yeah, depth and all that jazz.

I would have to say, multiple obtainable guys is good, but the biggest thing for me, personally, is equality. If you can play as either a male or female, the number of love interests should be equal. Then I won't feel cheated. 3 girls to date vs. 1 guy to date will just cheese me off, but 1 girl LI + 1 guy LI will magically be wonderful and okay. Number isn't important so long as neither gender is given special treatment. You'll earn my respect big timez.

But I do think there is a line of having too many people to date, and I certainly think everyone in your party should not be obtainable (dating Sten or Oghren in Dragon Age would just seem forced). Not only is that a burden on the developer, but it cheapens the connections you make with the characters (and restricts all the party members to young, attractive people). Every player will have a different taste in partners, but is it honestly realistic that everyone in the party will fall in love with you if you bat your eyes at them? If you can date 5 girls/guys in the course of an RPG, how deep can you honestly make each one? And what are the consequences, besides maybe a bonus to their stats? Seems gimmicky to me, than really weighing "would these people be in love?" Mass Effect's love system, while I love the game, was more about screwing to relieve stress than love (DON'T SHOOT ME), and isn't refuted in the second game where all the love interests are set up to potentially die (suicide mission). But I'll wait for the 3rd game to see what they do with ME1 LIs to make a strong judgement about that. But from what we have now, you get to know each character a little by telling a sappy story, the final battle comes, and ... The next game, they're gone. I really didn't feel a strong connection to the LIs in that game outside of "you're pretty" and hints of sexual tension. And a very, very out-of-character Shepard trying to hit on all the characters. So. Forced. But I think Dragon Age addresses this issue a lot better with actually feeling like you're making a connection with your character, and one that extends past the sex scene. But if Mass Effect did not have those love stories ... my interest in the game would've significantly dropped.

I think it would be wonderful for love interests to affect the ending. In fact, if the game has a separate ending, I still want to know how the character concludes their relationship with their LI. Not mentioning it at all in the end would make me Nerd Rage! So if in doubt ... involve it at least a little bit. But I'm not sure I'd appreciate getting a "bad" ending for my particular taste in men, but I'd probably applaud you just the same for making one of my decisions have a strong consequence. If all of my other actions affect it, why wouldn't my love life? Seems like a huge part of what makes someone human, so if being bad/good in a game reflects in the ending, shouldn't who I've made a strong partnership with affect it, too? If not, the LIs may seem superfluous and just a game mechanic.

[gekiganwing]

Personally, I prefer the romances you see in RPGs more than dating sims, simply because it's a little more meaningful and you get a greater depth of their personality (since the character wasn't created specifically to be romanced, they actually play a role to the story), whereas with dating sims it's normally "be smart and lose weight and wear that dress he likes and you'll get a pretty CG". Though this might be because I haven't played a dating sim that's really gotten to me the way Bioware romances have.

I'm curious what games you're referring to. Perhaps you've tried some titles that emphasized game mechanics rather than narrative. For instance, there's a few Flash games in English which have a girl main character, some fairly simple dating simulation gameplay, and maybe a little plot. If you played the English version of Tokimemo Girl's Side, then you know that it has almost no story and almost all complex gameplay. And if you're thinking about content created by people here on the Lemma Soft forums, then there isn't a lot of plot in RE: Alistair or Lollipop Love.

That said, if you look at non-slice-of-life stories such as the Fantasia series, Frozen Essence, or Memoirs of an Angel, then you might find something substantial.

Incidentally, I bought the XBox versions of KOTOR and Jade Empire in used condition for only a few dollars each... but only made it an hour into the former, and haven't tried the latter yet. I'm not sure if I'm interested. Also, I passed on getting a used 360 copy of DA:O for less than $20.

That said, I tried to think... what VNs/romance games have I played that had an impactful plot?

- Both of the RED Entertainment games that were localized were half serious, half comedy. It's been a few years since I last tried Thousand Arms, but I recall that the story occasionally took itself seriously. Also, the plot of Sakura Wars 5 is supposed to be absurd, but the chapters slowly become more impactful as the game goes on.

- In Persona 4, the main character can choose to have an intimate relationship with one of the girls. (The game even allows the player to create a small harem.) This makes a difference in the Christmas scenes. However, it's not as important as the overarching story, and the game's theme of family-esque friendship. From what I played of Persona 3, I believe it's similar.

- Both Kana Little Sister and Private Nurse are small scale dramas. They have romantic triangles and sex scenes, but the plot in each visual novel is genuine and memorable.

- Edelweiss has a lot of comedy, but the story in each path tends to get serious around the halfway mark. (It's tough to recommend this H-game/VN in its current form... if you're interested, wait until Mangagamer finishes the re-translation.)

- Generally speaking, if a game is meant to make the player uncomfortable, then it had better have a compelling story. Two H-games that fit that description that I read are Three Sisters Story and Chain the Lost Footprints. The former is sort of a graphic adventure game, while the latter is a VN.

- Finally, if you haven't read some of the mostly worksafe, freeware visual novels translated through the Altogether festivals, then do so. They range from dramatic slice of life to experimental.

Shamefully, I haven't gotten around to a lot of thoughtful or plot-driven VNs. So if anyone else wants to talk about how awesome Higurashi, Cross Channel, Saya no Uta, Ever17, Suika, or the Type-Moon games were, then go ahead.

[Showsni]

The romance subplots in the Baldur's Gate series were pretty well done, I thought. (Well, I only actually played Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal, I don't know about the first game.) I guess this is the BioWare romance subplot you were talking about... Though, it does have a gender imbalance - male PCs can date Viconia, Aerie or Jaheira, whilst females only get the choice of Anomen. (Bisexuals can date Edwin! Ba dum tish.) I think the romances are pretty much mutually exclusive, as they'd kind of have to be; a game where you jumped from girl to girl with no repercussions wouldn't make too much sense. And they did end up impacting the final outcome - I ended up giving up godhood to stay with my wife and child...

[papillon]

I think the romances are pretty much mutually exclusive, as they'd kind of have to be; a game where you jumped from girl to girl with no repercussions wouldn't make too much sense.

On the other hand, flirting with various options before settling on one isn't unreasonable (and in DA, at least, you can deal with the repercussions of starting one romance and dropping it for another).

I didn't much care for hte romances in Baldur's Gate myself.

But I do think there is a line of having too many people to date, and I certainly think everyone in your party should not be obtainable (dating Sten or Oghren in Dragon Age would just seem forced). Not only is that a burden on the developer, but it cheapens the connections you make with the characters (and restricts all the party members to young, attractive people). Every player will have a different taste in partners, but is it honestly realistic that everyone in the party will fall in love with you if you bat your eyes at them?

1. People's ideas of what's attractive vary wildly. There's no reason other than designer prejudice to restrict all party members to "traditionally attractive" people even if they are all romanceable. Some people like much older partners. Some people are actually more interested in characters than their superficial physical characteristics.

2. Abortive romances might be interesting as well. Dating Oghren isn't inconceivable if your PC for some reason actually _likes_ him - he is at least actively looking for love. Sten is clearly impossible for character reasons - but you as a PC might conceivably TRY to make moves on him, and have to deal with the results. I don't recall if anything along those lines is in the game because it simply wouldn't have occurred to my PC to flirt with him. Considering the difficulty he has accepting the idea of the PC as a woman warrior, a going-nowhere romance attempt where you talk about some of the issues could at least be interesting. You could even have an ending option to go off and adventure with him, still trying to win him over to your worldview.

ISTR reading some people complaining about being unable to approach the not-available-to-your-gender options romantically - not necessarily in order to succeed, but to be able to have the story results of rejection, and the way it would change the character dynamic. There are mods that will allow you to romance them anyway, but there aren't mods to allow you to talk about how they're not gay.

[Aleema]

1. People's ideas of what's attractive vary wildly. There's no reason other than designer prejudice to restrict all party members to "traditionally attractive" people even if they are all romanceable. Some people like much older partners. Some people are actually more interested in characters than their superficial physical characteristics.

2. Abortive romances might be interesting as well. Dating Oghren isn't inconceivable if your PC for some reason actually _likes_ him - he is at least actively looking for love. Sten is clearly impossible for character reasons - but you as a PC might conceivably TRY to make moves on him, and have to deal with the results. I don't recall if anything along those lines is in the game because it simply wouldn't have occurred to my PC to flirt with him. Considering the difficulty he has accepting the idea of the PC as a woman warrior, a going-nowhere romance attempt where you talk about some of the issues could at least be interesting. You could even have an ending option to go off and adventure with him, still trying to win him over to your worldview.

I agree. I just think, if you want to satisfy every person's taste in partners, you're working towards something that will cheapen the game, rather than, ideally, make it ten times better. Characters will be created purely for XYZ traits, whip a writer to trod out dialogue for them, and then you end up with a date sim. Yay, maybe? Date sims usually have a large cast, and even then, I bet people will complain that something is missing. It's not true of everything, but more characters usually means less characterization. So I personally like a little linearity in these types of games to encourage storytelling and an actual "falling in love", but if a game lets you customize your MC so intricately, yeah, I can see why you'd want complete control over who they date, too. I'm not arguing people would never want to date Oghren or Sten, but it would seem forced on the writer's part, and very gimmicky to me (like Mass Effect's cheesy pickup lines for every character -- I'd rather not come off as a sexual predator kthxbioware). If you could romance the coveted Bann Teagan, who's not even in your party, I'm pretty sure all we would get is a screen of text or something that says "you had sex/got married yay are you happy now?" We can do that in our head ourselves. =P

But to echo Chris Priestly again, if you make some people LIs, then there's suddenly a demand for EVERYONE to be a LI. Kinda cheapens it the more you make, in my opinion. But thank god for mods!

[papillon]

Yeah, I think trying to make too many people all romanceable and equal at once is likely to dilute the story (and exhaust the poor writers). But in the current age of DLC, there's always the possibility for adding more depth post-release to characters that want it?

[Aleema]

I would pay good money for that.

Damn you, Bioware! You dropped DA:O DLC before you got to Alistair/Zevran stories. I shall never forgive them. NEVAR.

[Rina]

But I do think there is a line of having too many people to date, and I certainly think everyone in your party should not be obtainable (dating Sten or Oghren in Dragon Age would just seem forced). Not only is that a burden on the developer, but it cheapens the connections you make with the characters (and restricts all the party members to young, attractive people). Every player will have a different taste in partners, but is it honestly realistic that everyone in the party will fall in love with you if you bat your eyes at them? If you can date 5 girls/guys in the course of an RPG, how deep can you honestly make each one? And what are the consequences, besides maybe a bonus to their stats? Seems gimmicky to me, than really weighing "would these people be in love?" Mass Effect's love system, while I love the game, was more about screwing to relieve stress than love (DON'T SHOOT ME), and isn't refuted in the second game where all the love interests are set up to potentially die (suicide mission). But I'll wait for the 3rd game to see what they do with ME1 LIs to make a strong judgement about that. But from what we have now, you get to know each character a little by telling a sappy story, the final battle comes, and ... The next game, they're gone. I really didn't feel a strong connection to the LIs in that game outside of "you're pretty" and hints of sexual tension. And a very, very out-of-character Shepard trying to hit on all the characters. So. Forced. But I think Dragon Age addresses this issue a lot better with actually feeling like you're making a connection with your character, and one that extends past the sex scene. But if Mass Effect did not have those love stories ... my interest in the game would've significantly dropped.

I would have loved to romance Sten (although that is virtually impossible, and actually rather dangerous from what Sten tells Morrigan about qunari intercourse xD), but that's beside the point.

Imo, the whole party available idea is rather unrealistic, considering not everyone is going to fall for the same personality (which is why I like Dragon Age for making the NPCs disapprove of you doing choices they're against - you have to be somewhat 'good' to romance Alistair and you have to be 'evil' to romance Morrigan, or at least agree with her).

That said, what does everyone think of different 'paths' for romance options? Like a hate/love relationship path being available for a certain character as well as your usual straight-edge 'falling-in-love' path, or a relationship purely based on sexual tension, or a friends-with-benefits relationship. Would you want there to be a friendship path as well? And is it essential for the romance to continue ever after the relationship has been consummated, and would you like other NPCs to comment on it (In DA, Wynne comments on your relationship with your LI, and sometimes other party members make comments about your relationship with the LI).

And it sounds to me like you just haven't played the right dating sims.

This is probably very true. Most of the dating sims I've played have been slice-of-life games without much plot/originality.

That said, if you look at non-slice-of-life stories such as the Fantasia series, Frozen Essence, or Memoirs of an Angel, then you might find something substantial.

Actually, I'm about to try out a couple of those, so... yeah From what I can see, my opinion on dating sims is probably going to change a little.

The romance subplots in the Baldur's Gate series were pretty well done, I thought. (Well, I only actually played Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal, I don't know about the first game.) I guess this is the BioWare romance subplot you were talking about... Though, it does have a gender imbalance - male PCs can date Viconia, Aerie or Jaheira, whilst females only get the choice of Anomen. (Bisexuals can date Edwin! Ba dum tish.)

In BG1, there wasn't any romances (though there are a bajillions mods you can use to add romance in xD). I think that Haer'Dalis was seriously considered, but they dropped it due to time constraints. And Jaheira was almost dropped as well due to how complicated it was. Then again, Anomen had two 'romance paths', so I suppose it isn't too imbalanced.

Damn you, Bioware! You dropped DA:O DLC before you got to Alistair/Zevran stories. I shall never forgive them. NEVAR.

I hear you so much. At least they gave Morrigan fans closure, I suppose...

[Aleema]

Lots of new questions!!

That said, what does everyone think of different 'paths' for romance options? Like a hate/love relationship path being available for a certain character as well as your usual straight-edge 'falling-in-love' path, or a relationship purely based on sexual tension, or a friends-with-benefits relationship.

Like, different paths per guy, or different paths for ONE guy? I'm a fan of different relationship dynamics, one for each person, and I'm doing that in my own games. Not everyone loves at the same speed and reach the same milestones at the same point in time. 'Cuz people are different. If you're doing a date sim, it's more forgivable to have all the confessions happen on such-and-such date -- but I assume we're talking about getting away from date sims?

Multiple paths for ONE guy ... I'm doing this for one game, but because the game only has one pursuable guy. If it's reasonable that each of your characters will react differently to advances and the entire relationship changes completely, okay, but it should be explained, since not all people will appreciate being f**kbuddies (asking Alistair to bed too early makes him mad, asking Zevran early makes him really happy). Mechanically, this would be a nightmare for you AND for us. We might accidentally start something and get confused as to which double entendre gets Ending A or B or C, times however many character there are. In general, I don't prefer "friends with benefits" paths outside of porn or something. If it's one means to the same end (love), I won't mind a bit. If you just get an ending where you're still indifferent with each other and/or nothing was learned, then ... no.

Would you want there to be a friendship path as well?

I'm going to say yes. But if you have a large cast, it might be unrealistic for everyone to like the MC at once. Some people just don't get along, and you have to choose sides (like, Miranda vs Jack in ME2). But of course I would love to see some depth in characters outside of the booty call route. That's more writing, and if you pull it off, it will be a big PLUS to the game. I don't see it detracting at all, and I can see complex relationship issues, like your love path guy getting jealous of your friendship path guy. Sounds fun. But again, more work for you. And if all the characters are a-holes if you don't date them, that's a big turn off to their character, and discourages future playthroughs, and might hint that people are only nice to each other if they can possibly sleep together. I wouldn't say it's something that's required for me to like your game though.

And is it essential for the romance to continue ever after the relationship has been consummated, and would you like other NPCs to comment on it (In DA, Wynne comments on your relationship with your LI, and sometimes other party members make comments about your relationship with the LI).

Eh, not essential, but very nice. Life doesn't get "happily ever after"s, so telling us that it is one is less impactful than seeing them act like a couple, if just for a short while. Then we can conclude that they're happy on our own, in a realistic way.

When Wynne commented on my relationships in DA, I was ecstatic. So, yes, very that please.

I hear you so much. At least they gave Morrigan fans closure, I suppose...

Actually, some people reported the company to the Better Business Bureau for false advertisement they were so upset with how non-closure-y the DLC was (that's silly, though). From what I heard, it just left them with more questions, and an advert for DA2. But yeah, I am happy for Morrigan and Leilana fans who got their DLC. Just wish some of us weren't left out in the cold like we don't pay as much money (or even more -- ask Jack Norton about how likely women are to pay vs pirate). Ignore me, I'm bitter.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Okay, I am going to talk about my fantasy VN, but I have no doubt it would be a nightmare to both write and program.

I would LOVE to see multiple paths depending on what you choices you made with a character. It seems natural that someone will like or dislike you based on the choices you make or don't make. If you write the characters well the player should be able to read into their personalities to see what the possible right choices should be. That means there would have to a fair bit of effort put in to characterise the character and set them up. I would LOVE to be given a chance to get close to all the characters, even the non-dateable ones. I will make serious decisions once I know them well enough. I kind of dislike how in dating sims you have to sacrifice characters in order to pursue just one. It is like they barely exsit unless you chase them. I have a terrible habit of trying to at least befriend everyone and so I usually end up with no-one. It would be cool if for about half the game you were given a chance to get to know them, possibly chase a couple of side stories about them, just like you would if you really were around these people. I LOVE it when the choices you make have effects, it makes it seem like they had consequence. This includes other NPC commenting on things (I listened to all of DA conversations between characters and I also liked how the scences could change depending on who you had in your party). I would actually really like to see characters reacting, especially jealousy. Jealousy is a lot of fun in stories, it spices things up. To see other characters disliking or liking other characters based on your choices would be soooo cool.

But yes, that is just a dream at the moment, though I would love to do it myself one day. Just have to find some people as ridiculously fangirlish as myself.

[jack_norton]

Mechanically, this would be a nightmare for you AND for us. We might accidentally start something and get confused as to which double entendre gets Ending A or B or C, times however many character there are. In general, I don't prefer "friends with benefits" paths outside of porn or something. If it's one means to the same end (love), I won't mind a bit. If you just get an ending where you're still indifferent with each other and/or nothing was learned, then ... no.

In my game I am planning to have the possibility to maximize the relationship with every NPC, because this unlocks a specific quest for each character (like Mass Effect). I agree that doing a multipath for each character would be insane, would require more time than actually writing the main plot and would be also a bit pointless - I speak as someone that made games with LOT of multiple endings/paths, but then people complained because in some cases were shorter. I don't think are so many the people who replay a game to see all the possibilities, so better make the game longer instead

Just wish some of us weren't left out in the cold like we don't pay as much money (or even more -- ask Jack Norton about how likely women are to pay vs pirate). Ignore me, I'm bitter.

Actually, men buys niche stuff like RPG, strategy, etc. Are mostly "teenager stuff" like FPS or arcade that are insanely pirated. Just think about The Witcher, a RPG very male oriented (you collect erotic cards of the women you slept with! this says all) and it sold over 1 million copies worldwide. My bet is that the male buyers for that game are 90% or something
Still I think game devs should provide equally distributed DLC and extra add-ons for both male/female characters.