Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play value?

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Sakura02
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Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play value?

#1 Post by Sakura02 »

So I'm a newbie VN maker and I've been working on a story with a goal to make it have a high replay value. I mean I know there are only so many endings you might probably care to see in a story, and visual novels have their limitiations. However, I want your opinon on this.

Info about the game so far

It's school life fantasy type story. Might possibly be 15+ or 18+ rated game. Dating is one of the main parts in it, but I'm writing the story in such a way in which you can play through and ignore the 13+ possible bachelorette choices, and still have a good ending. Yes you heard me 13+ different characters to date O_O; kinda crazy right. It's suppose to be funny with some serious parts in it but not many.

I'm starting an pretty amibitious project for a newbie to renpy and even possibly trying to go for a renpy record ^_~ maybe, but I'll talk more about it in another post. Anyways here are some things I'm thinking may give it a high-replay value, but I want a second opinion to whether these things can work or if it's just my wishful thinking?

Things that might make it appealing to replay

- Many multiple endings to aim for (my goal is to have 20+ different endings). The endings aren't classified as really good or bad. Well maybe there are 2 horrible endings you can get.

- Avoiding repetition of scenes. 80% of menu choices will lead to a brand new path, or completely new dialogue. I was thinking this may or may not drive the player crazy because every single choice IS important and there are many choices. But by choosing certain paths you unlock new characters. (Not all the bachelorettes are available at once of course)

- I forgot what exactly it's call and I have yet to figure how to implement this but they'll be a picture collecting section where you can see how many scenarios of each character you have encountered or the percentage of the game you've completed.


So those are the three main things, with the limitations of my programming knowledge XD.
Any thoughts on this or comments thanks 8)

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#2 Post by lordcloudx »

It looks like a good idea in theory, but... well, a lot of things are good ideas in theory. So, I can't really pass a conclusive judgment until your game is actually out. I, for one, believe that execution is everything. Even the worst ideas have the potential to be the best games with good execution.

The idea of each menu choice leading to a completely new scenario reminds me more of early Sierra adventure games rather than a traditional VN, but this doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing.

It seems you also want to feature unlockable CGs with a percentage completion screen for each character - which is a nice touch that makes the VN more "game-like." Personally, though, it does absolutely nothing for me.

That aside, your plan looks solid so far. One thing I would suggest is to add a "one true ending path" or rather, an unlockable path/paths that can only be viewed after you have played through everything. This has been done before in such games as the largely overrated, but still competent FSN as well as in Ever17.

By "one true ending path," I just meaning adding something that you wouldn't be able to achieve on your initial playthrough.
How do you make your games? I see. Thank you for the prompt replies, but it is my considered opinion that you're doing it wrong inefficiently because I am a perfushenal professional. Do it my way this way and we can all ascend VN Nirvana together while allowing me to stroke my ego you will improve much faster. Also, please don't forget to thank me for this constructive critique or I will cry and bore you to death respond appropriately with a tl;dr rant discourse of epic adequately lengthy proportions. - Sarcasm Veiled in Euphemism: Secrets of Forum Civility by lordcloudx (Coming soon to an online ebook near you.)

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#3 Post by Sapphi »

Personally... if the art in your game is anything like your avatar, I'll probably be interested to "find" all the datable characters just to see what they look like. I really like your style, but that's a personal thing. It's hard to comment about your game otherwise without actually seeing it, unfortunately.
lordcloudx wrote: That aside, your plan looks solid so far. One thing I would suggest is to add a "one true ending path" or rather, an unlockable path/paths that can only be viewed after you have played through everything. This has been done before in such games as the largely overrated, but still competent FSN as well as in Ever17.
This is what I plan to do as well; I think it's a good strategy a developer as it gives the player something a bit more tangible to strive for than simply "I saw all the endings!", CG's aside of course.

I have to warn you... I know you want to make your game huge (a worthy ambition) but as people here continue to reiterate, do NOT bite off more than you can chew. The game I'm making... I want it to be at least a full hour in one path's playtime, and I only have 3 main, dateable characters at the moment. It is taking an incredible (read: unforeseen) amount of time to write out their separate paths, and I'm not even a third of the way finished yet. And the kicker is... I had originally planned it to have like... 8 dateable characters. Fortunately, I downsized immensely, so now I can focus more on the three wonderful girls who remain. ^_^

I'm not necessarily telling you to downsize, because I believe anyone with enough determination can make a huge game, but the question that remains is how will it affect the quality of the game. I can imagine (from personal experience) that you will get bored/overwhelmed with the amount of path writing you have to do for every character, and want to get your game finished as soon as possible, so you might fudge a little bit and not do your best. Or, abandon the project entirely or have to rework it, possibly losing work you already did for parts you have to cut out.

My personal recommendation is to pick your favorite characters that you think are central to the story, get their paths and the main paths finished, and then work from there if you want to add more characters. That way, you can still plan for a big game, but getting the basic framework down first will ensure you aren't going to have to throw any work away.
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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#4 Post by Samu-kun »

That's a bad idea, not because of the concept, but because it's impossible to make. Imagine all 13 of your characters going to school, living at home, and then throw in a hypothetical shrine omatsuri festival and a trip to the a swimming pool some time in the story. That's already 52 character sprites you need to draw, without counting different poses or expressions. It's hopeless for one person. It's probably hopeless for even a team of five to seven people.

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#5 Post by Chansel »

Wow, 13 bachelorettes? That’s a very, VERY high number. It’ll take a lot of determination to finish all of their paths. Especially if you make every choice count by creating separate paths every time one comes up.
Now I don’t want to hamper your spirits, but you might want to consider starting a little smaller. As the others already mentioned, it’s a lot more work to finish everything than you’d think. The game I’m making only has 4 obtainable characters and that’s already becoming pretty overwhelming. Just make sure you don’t bite of more than you can chew ;) Because it’d be a shame if you started working on the project and put a lot and time and effort into it, only to backdown halfway. It happens too often and it’s really a shame.
Though I see your point in wanting to have as many bachelorettes as possible because it can be a lot of fun. But ask yourself if it’s really necessary? Would the game suffer a lot of you cut the number in half? 6 or 7 is still a LOT of characters, but it’ll be easier to tackle than 13.

Just think that to finish one scene, you’ll probably end up re-writing it 3 times or so (I think that’s my average of re-writing scenes.) Now think how many scenes you want for each character. Multiply it by 3. And then by 13.
I bet that’s a pretty high number, ne?
Now don’t get me wrong. If you are the kind of person who can really buckle down and write several good paths for 13 characters, then by all means go ahead and knock yourself out! But just don’t underestimate the amount of work it’ll take. Because it really is A LOT.
That aside, your plan looks solid so far. One thing I would suggest is to add a "one true ending path" or rather, an unlockable path/paths that can only be viewed after you have played through everything. This has been done before in such games as the largely overrated, but still competent FSN as well as in Ever17.

This is what I plan to do as well; I think it's a good strategy a developer as it gives the player something a bit more tangible to strive for than simply "I saw all the endings!", CG's aside of course.
I’m personally not a fan of this tactic. It’s like the game maker is forcing me to play the game over and over again just to get that one true ending. Truth be told, I think it’s a rather cheap technique to make the player continuously play your game. I do realize it’s a tactic that’s used often and I do understand why you’d want to do it, as a way to reward the player for finding all the endings, I get that. And for the smaller games with 4 – 5 endings I’ve learned to cope with it. But for this game, one that’ll feature 20+ endings, I think it’s a definite NO. That’s just too much work just to get the ‘true’ ending. Besides, in a VN where all choices really count, wouldn’t creating a true ending kinda go against the principle? It’ll be like saying “Sure, you’re choices count and determine the fate of the MC. But secretly THIS is the way it’s supposed to go and all that you’ve done was just a way of spending time until you could play the REAL story!”
... >.> Not my cup of tea.
(sorry if I want a bit on a rant here, but true endings just annoy me in VN’s where your choices are supposed to determine the outcome of the story >.<)
That's a bad idea, not because of the concept, but because it's impossible to make. Imagine all 13 of your characters going to school, living at home, and then throw in a hypothetical shrine omatsuri festival and a trip to the a swimming pool some time in the story. That's already 52 character sprites you need to draw, without counting different poses or expressions. It's hopeless for one person. It's probably hopeless for even a team of five to seven people.
So your saying that a sprite just HAS to have 4 different outfits? O.o? Or that a VN can’t exist without the whole cast wearing school uniforms, going to the beach or attending traditional Japanese festivals? Because if that’s the point you’re making, then I wholeheartedly disagree. Not all VN’s take place in Japan nor do they all throw massive beach parties.
Yes, having multiple outfits for characters is cool, but by no means is it a necessity for your game to work. It’s just a matter of what you (the creator) finds more important. Creating a whole new character, or giving that existing character a swimsuit? I’m not saying that one choice is better than the other, because there both good in their own ways.
Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that a game can function just fine with 13 sprites where they all have just 1 outfit and 1 pose. It won’t be the most dynamic game, sure. But it’ll work just fine nonetheless.
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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#6 Post by Sapphi »

Chansel wrote:
That aside, your plan looks solid so far. One thing I would suggest is to add a "one true ending path" or rather, an unlockable path/paths that can only be viewed after you have played through everything. This has been done before in such games as the largely overrated, but still competent FSN as well as in Ever17.

This is what I plan to do as well; I think it's a good strategy a developer as it gives the player something a bit more tangible to strive for than simply "I saw all the endings!", CG's aside of course.
I’m personally not a fan of this tactic. It’s like the game maker is forcing me to play the game over and over again just to get that one true ending. Truth be told, I think it’s a rather cheap technique to make the player continuously play your game. I do realize it’s a tactic that’s used often and I do understand why you’d want to do it, as a way to reward the player for finding all the endings, I get that. And for the smaller games with 4 – 5 endings I’ve learned to cope with it. But for this game, one that’ll feature 20+ endings, I think it’s a definite NO. That’s just too much work just to get the ‘true’ ending. Besides, in a VN where all choices really count, wouldn’t creating a true ending kinda go against the principle? It’ll be like saying “Sure, you’re choices count and determine the fate of the MC. But secretly THIS is the way it’s supposed to go and all that you’ve done was just a way of spending time until you could play the REAL story!”
... >.> Not my cup of tea.
(sorry if I want a bit on a rant here, but true endings just annoy me in VN’s where your choices are supposed to determine the outcome of the story >.<)
Yeah, I see what you're saying. If it's any better, each of the 3 girls in DDC has a bad end, a good end, and a romantic end, and the player is only required to get one ending of each girl's good or romantic endings (plus the neutral story path good end) to advance to what I call the "After-story". I agree that having to get every single ending would be a little much, especially with 20-some endings...
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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#7 Post by Der Tor »

Well yeah... generally increasing the number of paths increases re-play value. But if you just focus on paths, paths, paths and write the story around having as many paths as possible it backfires and makes it dull and confusing and then nobody is gonna explore the other paths. Also as has already been stated it's impractical to include too many branches particularly if you are not a gigantic company with a gigantic studio and hundreds of employees. That's because with each new branch the work you have to put into everything multiplies exponentially.

If you make the story interesting and creative you can have replay value without needing so many paths that it becomes confusing. There are some movies and books which most people have watched or read 3 or 4 times or more even though they don't have any branching "paths". Still sometimes you NEED to watch a movie twice to understand the story... a good example would be "The 6th Sense" or The Machinist or Donnie Darko or Memento or The usual suspects or Existenz etc. etc.. Movies like this you need to watch twice because the second time you watch it, you watch it from a different angle and understand it differently.

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#8 Post by flowerthief »

One thing you might consider doing is designating a few of those 13 bachelorettes as major characters to focus on in your writing. The rest can be minor characters and if after you finish the scripts for the major characters you find that you still have the energy to write more, you can start developing minor characters into major characters. I suggest this because I think it's easier to turn a minor character into a major character than the other way around. TV shows do it all the time.
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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#9 Post by Samu-kun »

So your saying that a sprite just HAS to have 4 different outfits? O.o? Or that a VN can’t exist without the whole cast wearing school uniforms, going to the beach or attending traditional Japanese festivals? Because if that’s the point you’re making, then I wholeheartedly disagree. Not all VN’s take place in Japan nor do they all throw massive beach parties.
Yes, having multiple outfits for characters is cool, but by no means is it a necessity for your game to work. It’s just a matter of what you (the creator) finds more important. Creating a whole new character, or giving that existing character a swimsuit? I’m not saying that one choice is better than the other, because there both good in their own ways.
That's not what I mean. I mean that each costume change is multiplied by the number of characters, in this case, 13, making it unrealistic to change the setting of the story two or three times. (But in most stories, there are probably going to be 4 or 5 setting changes which necessitate a change in costumes, making the amount of work you need to do outright crazy)

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#10 Post by Aleema »

Samu-kun wrote:... setting changes which necessitate a change in costumes ...
Uh ... That's awesome, not required. Not necessary, not even expected. It's awesome if you have different clothes for different settings. But I don't expect that from sprites. In fact, I expect sprites to be static for an entire game, except for expression. And that's okay by me. If someone has come up to you and complained that your sprites didn't change clothes from every damn location they went to, ignore them. If YOU want to make different outfits per location -- AWESOME. But I don't think you should set that standard for anyone else.

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#11 Post by Samu-kun »

I would not recommend you send your characters to a pool dressed in fur coats and scarfs, unless for a good reason.

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#12 Post by Aleema »

That seems wildly specific, assuming a story even goes to a pool. Or a festival. Or that their school has uniforms -- or even that they go to school? Character sprite difficulty is based on your need for it. Needs for each game are different. As an artist, you think in terms of how difficult ideas are to draw the worth of doing an idea, but not everyone thinks that way because it's not necessary. But that's okay, you're the one giving yourself the work. But you're saying it would be impossible for them to have a lot of characters, because pools exist? o_O

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#13 Post by Chansel »

Character sprite difficulty is based on your need for it. Needs for each game are different.
That’s pretty much the point I was trying to make.
(But in most stories, there are probably going to be 4 or 5 setting changes which necessitate a change in costumes, making the amount of work you need to do outright crazy)
I suppose we just have different views of what one can expect from the art of an Indie VN then, huh? Because it seems like you’re expecting all the character sprites to have different outfits and poses while I’ll personally be happy with any form of sprite as long as they look half decent C:
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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#14 Post by Sakura02 »

Yay! First off Thank you guys for replying and offering me some valuable advice ;A; This is like my first thread here that was not a technical question. XD So I'm really thrilled to get some feedback :D

I'm probably going to show the progress of my VN in another thread some time in future, and yes the avatar is actually in fact one of the characters. ^_^; and I'm doing this project solo *dies* I'm the artist, writer and programmer.
Samu-kun wrote:That's a bad idea, not because of the concept, but because it's impossible to make. Imagine all 13 of your characters going to school, living at home, and then throw in a hypothetical shrine omatsuri festival and a trip to the a swimming pool some time in the story. That's already 52 character sprites you need to draw, without counting different poses or expressions. It's hopeless for one person. It's probably hopeless for even a team of five to seven people.

Lol good point, it is alot of work. I'm using a layers on photoshop. Naked characters and then I draw clothes on them as I need them. Oh the reason why there are so many characters is because the story takes place at a school and all the girls are in fact classmates (Kinda like Negima I guess) They aren't all really going to be in the same scene at the same time but typically 2 or 3 of them hang out in groups and each. Unfortunately, the sprites don't have different poses just different facial expressions, but to break up the monotony there are some illustrated scenes depending on the situation and even short animations of the scenes. I actual just draw the sprites as I go XD so that way I don't have excess graphics that I didn't plan for. I'm probably 5% into the story right now with a 152 graphics in my game folder and that's including backgrounds and I've only introduced 6 main characters and 3 side characters XD, but don't worry about me XD I have a habit of taking on large projects and usually finishing or something close to my goal, and they don't intimidate me. But we'll see if i can keep my word on that. Lol.
I’m personally not a fan of this tactic. It’s like the game maker is forcing me to play the game over and over again just to get that one true ending. Truth be told, I think it’s a rather cheap technique to make the player continuously play your game. I do realize it’s a tactic that’s used often and I do understand why you’d want to do it, as a way to reward the player for finding all the endings, I get that. And for the smaller games with 4 – 5 endings I’ve learned to cope with it. But for this game, one that’ll feature 20+ endings, I think it’s a definite NO. That’s just too much work just to get the ‘true’ ending.
Well you have a point. I don't want to force anyone to play over and over again, I want someone to enjoy playing the second or third time around. Again I might consider having a true ending. But depending on which characters you interact with the sub plots within the story change and the outcome is different. I like to think about my VN idea as not so much focusing so much about getting an particular ending but, about the experiences and events that lead up to the ending. That's what I want to make the most enjoyable part of the game not just getting the girl of your choice. As VN players we all enjoy or dislike different things, and you bring up a good point I'll keep in mind.
Samu-kun wrote:I would not recommend you send your characters to a pool dressed in fur coats and scarfs, unless for a good reason.

No I promise not. XD
Aleema wrote:That seems wildly specific, assuming a story even goes to a pool. Or a festival. Or that their school has uniforms -- or even that they go to school? Character sprite difficulty is based on your need for it. Needs for each game are different. As an artist, you think in terms of how difficult ideas are to draw the worth of doing an idea, but not everyone thinks that way because it's not necessary. But that's okay, you're the one giving yourself the work. But you're saying it would be impossible for them to have a lot of characters, because pools exist? o_O
Well the story itself is kinda different. The setting is actually a mesh of American and Japanese culture, which sounds really bizarre, but it'll make more sense once I work through most of the game. There will be different enviroments and each character will be dressed appropiately for them. Some characters may not be available like let's say for example a beach scene so I might not have a need to draw an outfit for that character. Or there might be that one character you only encounter at school it just depends. Although I might estimate each character having at least 5 different outfits. School Uniform, Casual, Beach/Pool, Formal, Workplace
If you make the story interesting and creative you can have replay value without needing so many paths that it becomes confusing. There are some movies and books which most people have watched or read 3 or 4 times or more even though they don't have any branching "paths". Still sometimes you NEED to watch a movie twice to understand the story... a good example would be "The 6th Sense" or The Machinist or Donnie Darko or Memento or The usual suspects or Existenz etc. etc.. Movies like this you need to watch twice because the second time you watch it, you watch it from a different angle and understand it differently.
I like this comment :D

Thanks for the input guys even though I haven't provided any pictures or insight to the game despite having worked on it 2 months already. Someone mentioned having a feature that can be unlocked once you finish every ending. ;A; I would love that, but this is my first renpy game and my programming knowledge is really limited at this point even though I've seen the things Renpy can do. XD I haven't even figured out how to customize the text box or the main menu yet OTL... I'll have to read up on that later. hehe ^_^;;

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Re: Is it possible to create a VN game with high re-play val

#15 Post by YonYonYon »

Aww, I remember my first very amibitious idea. Over 90 endings and 484+ CG's... It was a really huge project, but for first time I decided to start with something easier ( but I can't cope even with 12 endings ;_; )

Anyway, if you want to do something, just do it.
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