ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

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Taleweaver
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#16 Post by Taleweaver »

kinougames wrote:@Taleweaver
AA is the closest to a VN, but it's still gameplay. You CAN get a game over, but you can also start from where you last were. (If you lose all your energy or smth, you can get a gameover during court.)
Well, the court scenes ARE the VN parts. Only that instead of text choices like "Present the bloody glove", you get to click on a bloody glove and then on "Present" to make a choice. Failing these parts will drain "energy" and lead to a game over sooner or later, but that's the equivalent of a VN where the number of choices you make regarding a certain person is recorded, and if you make too many bad choices about that person, you don't get the good ending any longer.

Gameplay in AA is more like "dust for fingerprints", or "use luminol", or even the "find the difference in two musical pieces" part in Apollo Justice. These parts are fun, but you can't fail them the way you can fail to beat a boss in Blue Lemma's "Zenith Chronicles" (yay! viral ad!).

I agree that VNs are adventure games at heart, only with plenty of text. Maybe we should concentrate on producing more fully voiced titles so that playing them is a little like watching puppet shows?
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#17 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Long time lurker, seldom poster, but I thought I'd put forward my thoughts since I feel so strongly about the particular issues touched on in Answerman's article.

I'm not a big fan of VNs or Kinetic Novels. The reason is pretty simple. If I wanted to read a story, I'd read an actual novel. If I wanted to read a novel with pictures, I'd read a manga. I'm not saying that to be contrary. It's just that VN and KN have a HUGE overlap with existing media that tend to do what they do, only better. I feel that is a big reason they are not more successful.

I want to play a GAME. I want gameplay, or at least a chance to make meaningful decisions every 5-10 minutes, not three or four choices spread over hours of "gameplay". I prefer what are called "life simulation" games around here. True Love '95 was the first game I played in this genre, VN or otherwise, and it remains my favorite. For me to play a VN, it has to have a GREAT story, and one I can't get else where. Most VN come across to me (and again I apologize - I don't mean to offend) as a sort of "poor man's" / "poor woman's" manga. A way for the author to tell stories with pictures without having to draw everything that happens.

You've got to consider the interactive nature of the medium you've chosen. I know making actual games can be difficult, but people like Jack and Hanako do it all the time and tell great stories in the process - while letting me DO something. Like has been mentioned, the Ace Attorney games, even the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games from Bioware prove that a huge audience is willing to read through a TON of text and story with two people just looking at each other if you give them meaningful choices to make and gameplay in-between.

The old "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" books are a good template to look at for VN with no "game elements". Those books never went more than 4-5 pages without letting the player make a choice or decision. Sure, a lot of the choices looped back on themselves, and frustrating dead-ends and deaths wouldn't be good for a VN, but the books at least encouraged interaction and thought from the reader rather than just having them stare at the page.

I'm more likely to care about your story if I am made to have a vested interest in it. Gameplay and frequent choices cause that investment to take place.

I'm not sure why Kinetic Novels exist. If seems like you could post a short story along with pictures of your characters and accomplish the same thing, just like some books have illustrations every chapter or two.

Again, I know I've likely stepped on some people's toes, and I apologize. I really just want to see the community and genre grow, and I think Answerman is on to something. Of course, you could just disregard everything I've said. After all, I might be an awful person since I laughed so hard I snorted coffee at the "Choose Your Own Little Girl to Rape Adventure" line in the article.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#18 Post by kinougames »

@Taleweaver

Honestly, there are so many games in which you cannot get a "true" game over I'm unsure why you're quoting that as the reason it's a VN. I play RPGs, and when I fail, some of them let me try again...ad infinitum. It's not a particularly VN-related trait.

@LateWhiteRabbit

Life sims, eh? :D You should check my group's game, it's precisely a life sim.
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =16&t=8926

In addition:
It's just that VN and KN have a HUGE overlap with existing media that tend to do what they do, only better. I feel that is a big reason they are not more successful.
I pretty much am 100% sure that this is why pure EVNs don't sell that well in America.
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#19 Post by J. Datie »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:I'm not sure why Kinetic Novels exist. If seems like you could post a short story along with pictures of your characters and accomplish the same thing, just like some books have illustrations every chapter or two.
I fail to see how removing music and sound effects, having less variations in images, and no bookmarks would result in a better product. The only advantage I can see is that people could start reading without having to download it, but since people have already made streaming VNs, it's kind of a moot point.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#20 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

@kinougames

Thanks. I'll check it out. Looks right up my alley. We need more games in the Princess Maker vein. That is a ridiculously small genre, even counting foreign releases and similar games by Jack and Hanako.

@J. Datie
Removing all those things wouldn't necessarily make a better product. I was just pointing out how everything KN do is done in several other media, all which have a wider audience and several of which do it easier and cheaper than KN do. I know some people really like KN, that's cool. But speaking of the Answerman article, and the question of how to create a "VN boom", KN aren't going to do it.

Anime, flash, movies, tv, etc all have music and sound effects, variation in images and tell stories. Speaking from a business background, you don't do well by competing with people who already do what you do, only better. You do well by focusing on a niche that is unexploited by the larger companies or businesses and do that extremely well and make it your own. Like the "raising sim" kinougames is making. Princess Maker games are rare as hell in English (and any other language for that matter). Hanako has done a couple, Jack has done one with similar gameplay, etc. THERE is a genre that no AAA game maker or company is fulfilling. People who love that style of gameplay can't go out and buy the latest "raising sim" by SquareEnix, EA, Activision, Blizzard, or any other company, so you can compete with those companies for the customers money in that arena extremely well.

Of course, all these thoughts I've posted, in my last post and this one, are all looking at it from a business and market side. If you are making VN or KN as a hobby and don't care about making money or selling them, carry on. It isn't my place to tell you how to have fun and spend your time enjoyably.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#21 Post by J. Datie »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote:I was just pointing out how everything KN do is done in several other media, all which have a wider audience and several of which do it easier and cheaper than KN do. I know some people really like KN, that's cool. But speaking of the Answerman article, and the question of how to create a "VN boom", KN aren't going to do it.
Is there any medium that can provide everything a KN does and is easier and cheaper to make? Serious question.

I agree that KN probably aren't going to create a big VN boom, but I don't think anyone making them believes they will. I think people make KNs for, what I'm going to assume, is the same reason people still make comic books. It's cheaper, and it lets them make stories that more expensive mediums wouldn't be able market to a wide enough audience. And people read them because they're in the niche that enjoys those kinds of stories, and probably aren't going to get them from more expensive mediums, unless it's an adaptation.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#22 Post by kinougames »

J. Datie wrote: Is there any medium that can provide everything a KN does and is easier and cheaper to make? Serious question.

I agree that KN probably aren't going to create a big VN boom, but I don't think anyone making them believes they will. I think people make KNs for, what I'm going to assume, is the same reason people still make comic books. It's cheaper, and it lets them make stories that more expensive mediums wouldn't be able market to a wide enough audience. And people read them because they're in the niche that enjoys those kinds of stories, and probably aren't going to get them from more expensive mediums, unless it's an adaptation.
No, but there are several that do it better and have the money to make them look better than any of us. And, because they have the money to advertise, they can get it out there in better ways than we can and they're doing nothing for the VN market.

If the small guys want to compete, they need to do something that isn't getting done and can't be reasonably bought elsewhere.

The problem with KNs is that there ARE those types of stories being done better and groups like mangagamer are at least trying to bring to good ones over here, not to mention that there are some decent inofficial translations of other games (the one for PM2 was pretty damn good for an amateur translation). There currently is no real reason for people to pay attention to EVNs over those options.
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#23 Post by KomiTsuku »

kinougames wrote:
J. Datie wrote: Is there any medium that can provide everything a KN does and is easier and cheaper to make? Serious question.

I agree that KN probably aren't going to create a big VN boom, but I don't think anyone making them believes they will. I think people make KNs for, what I'm going to assume, is the same reason people still make comic books. It's cheaper, and it lets them make stories that more expensive mediums wouldn't be able market to a wide enough audience. And people read them because they're in the niche that enjoys those kinds of stories, and probably aren't going to get them from more expensive mediums, unless it's an adaptation.
No, but there are several that do it better and have the money to make them look better than any of us. And, because they have the money to advertise, they can get it out there in better ways than we can and they're doing nothing for the VN market.

If the small guys want to compete, they need to do something that isn't getting done and can't be reasonably bought elsewhere.

The problem with KNs is that there ARE those types of stories being done better and groups like mangagamer are at least trying to bring to good ones over here, not to mention that there are some decent inofficial translations of other games (the one for PM2 was pretty damn good for an amateur translation). There currently is no real reason for people to pay attention to EVNs over those options.
You mean we'd have to unite under a single banner and draw attention to our medium as a whole. Push our English works over the translated works. Wage war for recognition. Sounds like a tall order. That'd be a lot of hard work and financing.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#24 Post by Aleema »

I sort of agree with the "1% rule" comment, but I think that's rapidly changing in the west. People aren't fans because they don't know it exists. People who like Phoenix Wright are VAST. Vast, people. Meaning, there's loads of people who buy the game that I know of. It has game elements, but the simple fact is that you enjoy the game because of the story. If it were just an evidence matching game, it wouldn't be as interesting. It's the way the trial takes twists and makes you think that keeps your playing. Not the point-and-click feature. Would people play it without these game elements? Probably not as much, because they provide a very important service: interaction. Consequence.

Like the writer says, once this medium loses its stigma (plz soon plzzz) people can discover that they like it. I, for one, was looking for a way to tell stories. I wanted to visually express them and put music to scenes and I liked making little radio plays for them ... All of those things I liked to do fit perfectly into what the visual novel was. With the number of pleasure writers out there (just check fanfiction.org), I know I'm not alone.

As a consumer, when I was younger I used to draw pictures of the characters in my head and then I would stare at the pictures and daydream scenes. The static picture would come to life and I would see them talking, literally. This medium speaks to me. I need a picture of a character -- and I even prefer them static. I enjoy my imagination more than someone else's interpretation in some regards. Am I a bizarre freak? Is someone who prefers books to movies a freak? I don't think so. I'd like to think not.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#25 Post by Suikama »

Aleema wrote:once this medium loses its stigma (plz soon plzzz) people can discover that they like it
It's not just gonna lose it by itself you know. It's gonna take a large movement of some sort against it rather than waiting it out.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#26 Post by Aleema »

A movement is happening. More can always be done, of course.

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#27 Post by kinougames »

KomiTsuku wrote: You mean we'd have to unite under a single banner and draw attention to our medium as a whole. Push our English works over the translated works. Wage war for recognition. Sounds like a tall order. That'd be a lot of hard work and financing.
No, because unless a bunch of people planned to donate all their spare money to the cause, and even if they did, it still won't compare or compete. Furthermore, as a Japanese speaker, I like Japanese VNs and won't stop buying them anyway.

What I'm saying is that we have to do something with VNs that isn't getting done. KNs are done. They're done and done and done and done again. We do them, we lose. We have to come up with innovative ideas that hit rarer VN topics even in Japan. For example, my group is trying to put out games that showcase more gay people. TONS of gay people are anime fans and the vast majority of games out do not allow a gay option. So many people have approved of my inclusion of several girl/girl options in Papa Pirate, Baby Bandit, and when Mitsumata comes out, the romances that do exist will be largely not-heterosexual. If we continue to focus on the mainstream within this niche, we will be passed over quickly. We need to focus on things that people still want, but aren't getting enough of. Despite the extreme popularity of yaoi (to where it sells out at cons in MOMENTS) only my group and a few other people have done/are working on a BL game, and only THREE BL games have been translated into English (I know, cause I looked). New otome games are coming from Japan every second, written better, drawn better, done better. Either do it different (and not many games here are) or find a new spot in the game and hit that.

Or, we'll stay right where we are.
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#28 Post by flowerthief »

Hmm, I've always assumed that when VNs catch on in the West, it would be because of some big localization breakthrough. Like a high-selling critically acclaimed title with relative mainstream appeal such as 428 ~Fuusa Sareta Shibuya de getting ported to English and making waves. And if that could happen, then the EVN scene could ride those waves until it secures its own proper audience. But that may never happen for all I know, so I suppose it really is up to the EVN community to do it themselves.

The more likely way in which VN's are gonna take off in the West is this: James Cameron wakes up one morning with a sudden inexplicable drive to produce an epic big budget VN....
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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#29 Post by J. Datie »

Aleema wrote:Would people play it without these game elements? Probably not as much, because they provide a very important service: interaction. Consequence.
This is a good point. I haven't played any of the Ace Attorney games, but I believe Digital: A Love Story benefited from the interaction it had, despite being a linear story. I wonder if more KNs / linear stories could benefit from having more interaction. Obviously, things like choices that just loop back around to the choice menu and those adventure type menus with the "look, talk, think" actions that give a generic response for every option but one would examples of bad interaction, but I think a bit more interaction could help draw the reader in.
flowerthief wrote:The more likely way in which VN's are gonna take off in the West is this: James Cameron wakes up one morning with a sudden inexplicable drive to produce an epic big budget VN....
Do you think it'll help if we show him the fake 3D Ren'Py pictures?

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Re: ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

#30 Post by CDRW »

flowerthief wrote:The more likely way in which VN's are gonna take off in the West is this: James Cameron wakes up one morning with a sudden inexplicable drive to produce an epic big budget VN....
NO DAMMIT! JAMES CAMERON OWES ME A BATTLE ANGEL MOVIE FIRST!

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