ANN Answerman 2011-04-1

[KomiTsuku]

Okay, I've honestly lost track of the whole conversation. It seems like you two are arguing the same point with different motivation behind it...

~Starts humming "We Didn't Start The Flame War"~

Truthfully, I've played very few JVNs. Very, very few. I can't honestly name one off-hand. Unless Phoenix Wright counts. I'm just a fiction writer who thought that this would be a really cool medium to try and migrate my works to. What ended up bringing me to this medium was a "Know what would be really cool? A graphic version of our story," conversation with my assistant and a very chance encounter with Ripples. I'm willing to bet I'm not the only person out there with this sort of backstory.

I'm afraid you won't be getting a pure yuri or yaoi game from me. I work in an equal opportunity universe. Like I've said, I'm just a sci-fi writer who thinks that pictures with his stories and some sort of gameplay would be cool. The whole advancement of the genre and other whatnot is a little above my level.

[Taleweaver]

ATTENTION! LONG RANT TO FOLLOW!

Holy flamewar, Batman! What's happening in this thread? I'd tell everybody to chill if you hadn't already...

I'd like to take on one aspect of this discussion now:

We cannot target a large demographic of people when other, better game-makers are targeting the same people with more money, and better artists, and more resources, plus the whole JP fetish thing that anime fans tend to have.

What we CAN do, however, is create better storys. And VNs with better art. And more interactivity. In short, we are capable of making better games.

Whoa. Now I've lost it, haven't I?

Well, not exactly. There is a small - a very small - number of VNs that are top-notch in every respect. Take most Key titles, for example - beautiful, professional artwork, gripping plots, memorable characters, fully voiced, animated cutscenes. Kanon, Clannad, the sort of titles that are legendary. That's a level we probably won't be able to surpass.

But then again, look at the large mass of VN titles that sell well in Japan. Plot? Many of them are H-games with just the "choose your little girl to rape" plot that Answerman mentioned here. I've played stuff like Tsuki Possession or the X-Change series, and none of them can even start to compare with the depth of character and power of storytelling of Mikey's Ori, Ochi, Onoe. The artwork in these titles is rather good, yes, but nothing that Katawa Shoujo hasn't done better.

Then there's the typical "everything happens in high school" problem that the majority of original J-games suffers from. The only reason that this sort of cliché happens to be at least somewhat popular outside of Japan is because of young girls in school uniforms, which seem to be some sort of universal fetish to men between 14 and 60. Well, big deal. What happened to sexy latinas? What's with sorority girls in cheerleader uniforms? Aren't there any popular fetishes in the West? I'm not saying these are necessary for a successful game, but if we WANTED to tackle the same niche, there would be a few ways to do it!

Then there's the success of Ace Attorney. Heck, give me DaFool as my artist, any of the musicians here from the forums, a few months to entirely work myself into Ren'Py and I am certain even I could reproduce the first Ace Attorney game. No - the first three Ace Attorney games, not including the bonus case to AA1, which included a fully animated video cutscene and "gameplay gimmicks" like the fingerprint dusting mechanisms. These games are gripping crime dramas, it's the plot that made them successful, and I can write good crime plots and snappy dialogue. The rest just isn't hard to do, and I'm confident this forum has all necessary skills to do it.

I mean, look at the doujin games that became popular. Higurashi no naku koro ni was a freaking indie kineno (okay, they called it "sound novel"), and it spawned sequel upon sequel and three professional anime series with a production quality an effing gazillion above of the original games! Look at Shingetsutan Tsukihime, with art that looks amateurish even in comparison to some of our titles and about one choice for every half hour of text. The plot made it popular, guys, and it made it an anime series.

Oh - and by the way, it's not a coincidence that none of the aforementioned games were BL or Yuri titles. BL and Yuri appeal to a niche audience in the niche audience that plays VNs. BL titles are more popular in Japan because the shoujo manga fandom has been into BL for a long time, and BL titles are popular among teenage girls because they offer sexual fantasies in which the protagonists are not a possible threat to the reader. (I live in a society where most girls are taught that every man is a possible rapist, so gay men seem much less threatening to them.) However, if we want to make VNs that appeal to a larger audience, BL and Yuri are out of the question as an effing lot of people won't play anything that even smells of it. I, for example, usually don't touch BL games because man on man doesn't appeal to me. Call me homophobic, but I'm not alone.

Really. If any of you feels up to the task of producing the next big commercial VN hit, everything necessary for it is here in the LSF. I, for one, am content with making my small, non-professional (yet hopefully enthralling) games; however, I do not object to working in a team, and I'm willing to write a gripping plot and dialogue script for anyone with the necessary devotion and ambition to go for gold. I'll even work for free, or for a small share of the profits if that certain someone wants to go fully commercial. I honestly believe that my writing is more than sufficient for a professional release and that I can write for a large audience, and I'm certain that some of the artists here feel the same about their skill level.

Well, so much for my rant.

First bidders?

[Suikama]

~Starts humming "We Didn't Start The Flame War"~

Peeps were hatin’ on it ‘fore I left my comment~

I think worrying about competition is a bit of a moot point considering how small Visual Novels are in general. People bring up Pheonix Wright a lot as a 'sucessful example' and yet I've heard Capcom complain that it wasn't as popular as they liked. If you really want to sell you gotta try targeting a bigger audience. And yeah a good way to do that is write a gripping plot.

*COUGHMADOKACOUGH*

[Starling]

Huh... lots of opinions flying around, and lots of toe treading XD

What I find interesting is that my first VNs were actually Moonlight Walks and a few short translated KNs and that's what I fell in love with. In fact I remember it being that old horror butterfly game that really hooked me.

In fact the only JVNs I've ever played were more recent and they were both tokimeki memorials that I wanted to play because I had enjoyed Re:Alistair so much and wanted more and their weren't really any EVNs at the time that were similar, and Princess Maker 2 because someone recommended it to me, but in my brain I didn't even compare that to a VN.

What I personally love about them is that they bring a story to life. It's not just about the character sprite whose expression changes. It's about the backgrounds that ground your mind in a place, it's about the music that can help set the mood, it's about the SFX or voice acting maybe that further immerse you into the game.

Add on a layer of interactivity on that and the game just explodes in awesome in my mind. I was always a HUGE fan of choose your own adventure as a child, and any game that gave you that customization of choosing what you say just was amazing.

What's also amazing is when I discovered VNs I actually ran out of things to play at first, and this was only 3 and a half years ago. Then last summer I rediscovered them and there was such a wealth coming out all the time that it was mindboggling amazing. The level of quality has increased BY TENFOLDS and the amount of interactivity is constantly growing. The amount of programming in Rock Robin for example is WAY more interactivity than EVNs used to be and that's just one, there are so many now. There are also commercial games out now, where I don't even know if I remember there being any when I first got into VNs those years ago.

I can only imagine how this community will have changed by this time next year.

I can tell you that they will become more and more popular, especially if you continue to expose people who haven't experienced VNs before. I announced the releases of RockRobin's demo and Rapunzel on facebook when we were done with them. I also made all my friends promise to play them. I was amazed by how many people downloaded both, people who you would not expect to enjoy VNs. On top of that I have personally introduced RockRobin to at least 6 people who had never even heard of VNs before I mentioned them and now they are all RABID fans of it.

Just raising the awareness in your own group of friends, family and peers can do wonders for the VN community.

...and wow XD totally didn't mean to ramble so long. Should go do homework now >___> XD~

[sake-bento]

Hey gang, some of this thread is starting to get heated, so we're installing a "twelve hour" rule. If you post in this thread, please wait 12 hours before you do so again.

[Suikama]

Huh... lots of opinions flying around, and lots of toe treading XD

What I find interesting is that my first VNs were actually Moonlight Walks and a few short translated KNs and that's what I fell in love with. In fact I remember it being that old horror butterfly game that really hooked me.

In fact the only JVNs I've ever played were more recent and they were both tokimeki memorials that I wanted to play because I had enjoyed Re:Alistair so much and wanted more and their weren't really any EVNs at the time that were similar, and Princess Maker 2 because someone recommended it to me, but in my brain I didn't even compare that to a VN.

What I personally love about them is that they bring a story to life. It's not just about the character sprite whose expression changes. It's about the backgrounds that ground your mind in a place, it's about the music that can help set the mood, it's about the SFX or voice acting maybe that further immerse you into the game.

Add on a layer of interactivity on that and the game just explodes in awesome in my mind. I was always a HUGE fan of choose your own adventure as a child, and any game that gave you that customization of choosing what you say just was amazing.

What's also amazing is when I discovered VNs I actually ran out of things to play at first, and this was only 3 and a half years ago. Then last summer I rediscovered them and there was such a wealth coming out all the time that it was mindboggling amazing. The level of quality has increased BY TENFOLDS and the amount of interactivity is constantly growing. The amount of programming in Rock Robin for example is WAY more interactivity than EVNs used to be and that's just one, there are so many now. There are also commercial games out now, where I don't even know if I remember there being any when I first got into VNs those years ago.

I can only imagine how this community will have changed by this time next year.

I can tell you that they will become more and more popular, especially if you continue to expose people who haven't experienced VNs before. I announced the releases of RockRobin's demo and Rapunzel on facebook when we were done with them. I also made all my friends promise to play them. I was amazed by how many people downloaded both, people who you would not expect to enjoy VNs. On top of that I have personally introduced RockRobin to at least 6 people who had never even heard of VNs before I mentioned them and now they are all RABID fans of it.

Just raising the awareness in your own group of friends, family and peers can do wonders for the VN community.

...and wow XD totally didn't mean to ramble so long. Should go do homework now >___> XD~

Sorry to sum up your big post like this but so basically it's like this: Tell your friends! Tell your enemies! Tell random people on the street! Tell your dog! Tell everyone about Visual Novels!

Edit: Oh crap I broke the rule... uh...

Sake-sama you're the most magnicifent beautiful stunning charming brilliant and all around greatest moderator and visual novel creator of all time, so please spare this poor lowly pathetic mortal of your banhammering wrath!

*Suikama genuflects*

[sake-bento]

o_____o Uh...wow. Um... I... @_@ You really, really don't have to say all that.

And no genuflecting necessary. The rule goes into effect after the post, so technically you're not breaking it. Posting a response to this would, however, be breaking it, so I'll just assume you've read it. ^_^;;

[DaFool]

It's happening. Here's what a "mainstream" visual novel would eventually look like:

http://moacube.com/games/cinders/

If this becomes a success then we don't need to worry about in-breeding anymore.

[jack_norton]

Yes, I'm quite curious to see how Tom's game (the Moacube coder, not our Tom) does. Since they come from a HO background, they're used to add all those polishing details like animated backgrounds and more. When he approached me to ask info/suggestions, I was quite surprised that he decided to try with a VN as first title as indie, but now that I see the game (I played an alpha build) I think he made a good move

[LateWhiteRabbit]

snip

Taleweaver said what I was trying to say.

Basically, it disappoints me to see the potential in the genre not being used. Like Taleweaver said, there is the talent on these forums to surpass a lot of what comes out in the VN genre, in Japan or in the U.S. or anywhere else. I'm not suggesting we all band together or anything, just that those of us targeting a commercial release step up our game a little bit more and really push the genre forward. Like the Moacube game Cinders that was linked to - what is it doing different that we couldn't do? Couldn't have done already? Animated backgrounds and polished, professional art.

I have a degree in business and a degree in fine art for production, so some people might say my standards are too high. I've always felt though, that if you hold someone to a higher standard they will rise to meet it. Even if they don't meet it, they are better off than they were before.

From a business stand point, if you and your competition are the same size with the same resources, you can try and beat them by copying what they are doing and doing it better. This is what the big AAA developers do a lot. They can afford to. If you are smaller and have less resources than your competition, you need to go niche. Find a demand they are not meeting and fulfill it to the best of your ability. You can make that niche yours and own it, even without the same resources behind you.

The talk of Yuri and BL games are just an example of targeting under exploited niches. From a commercial perspective a game maker would do well in those genres. But they are just an example. You could just as well site any example of a subject in VN that is not well represented in EVNs.

Others have said it and I'll say it again - NONE OF THIS APPLIES TO HOBBYISTS. It would be great if you tried to apply professional standards to your hobby work - after all, if you continually did so, one day you may wake up and discover you've become a professional. But if you don't want to, then fine. Answerman's article, and the main body of this discussion has been about how to grow the COMMERCIAL market for VN and their related ilk. Doing so boils down to a few things:

1. Fulfill a need - gameplay-wise, story-wise, subject-wise - that is not being met elsewhere
2. More gameplay
3. Higher production values

The "VNs" that have broken out and seen large success are those with GAMEPLAY. This is an unavoidable truth if you want larger dispersal of your work in this medium. Others people will read a manga, a comic, a book, or watch a movie. Ace Attorney, Princess Maker, Cute Knight, Recettear, etc. all have reached a wide audience because you play a game along with reading the story. Think of the old Infocom games - the text adventures. They told a story all in words with no pictures - but they still had a high level of interaction with the "player". That's an important part to remember in my mind - your audience is a "player". Not a "reader".

I'll finish by going back to what Taleweaver touched on. I would like to see more diversity in story settings and plots in VNs. (There is a good bit of diversity in the forums here, but bear in mind I am talking about the whole genre.) Why must everything be set in high school? Is it because a lot of the VN makers are in high school themselves? Is it because they are copying what a lot of Japanese VN do? Why not a college, a military academy, a job place, a small town, etc. ? Also, why are the names of characters Japanese? If it is set in Japan, fine. But also ask, why is it set in Japan? Is there some reason the story works better there, or again, am I just copying from Japanese VNs and anime? English players are more likely to be comfortable with English names. And if your VN is set outside of Japan, it just becomes weird for characters to have Japanese names.

As an adult with high school half a lifetime in the past, with college and military service in the bag as well, I get exasperated with being made to repeat high school. There are a lot of VN and anime fans my age too. We'd love more adult stories in VNs. Or why not take us back to a part of our youth we ENJOYED? A nostalgic look on childhood, etc. In short, look outside the box.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

EDIT: Sorry, double post.

[pondrthis]

And if your VN is set outside of Japan, it just becomes weird for characters to have Japanese names.

Unless, of course, they're immigrants. Many interesting stories of many different kinds can be about immigrants. And it bridges a gap between Western and Anime Weeaboo fans when you have some Japanese names and some Western names.

Or why not take us back to a part of our youth we ENJOYED?

I happen to look at high school as the highlight of my youth. It was at least a lot better than college. I played a whole lot of cello in high school, but pretty much all my extracurriculars gave in to the harsh schedules of engineering school in college. And I hate engineering T.T

[Taleweaver]

The talk of Yuri and BL games are just an example of targeting under exploited niches. From a commercial perspective a game maker would do well in those genres. But they are just an example. You could just as well site any example of a subject in VN that is not well represented in EVNs.

That's not what I was trying to say. My words were: get out of the niche, get away from producing games that only appeal to a very specific audience. Go for the big market and do it better than those who are already there!

It's possible, boys and girls! Get on with it!

[TeeGee]

I'm sorry for resurrecting a month-old topic, but I just noticed that we've been mentioned. I felt the urge to jump in and take some stance, as well as clear some misconceptions.

It's happening. Here's what a "mainstream" visual novel would eventually look like:

http://moacube.com/games/cinders/

If this becomes a success then we don't need to worry about in-breeding anymore.

Ha ha, it's funny that you call Cinders "mainstream" . When we started the project, one of our biggest concerns was that we're going against what we perceive as the mainstream of VNs. That is: anime game in some highschool setting. Just shows that everything is relative, based on the point of view.

Yes, I'm quite curious to see how Tom's game (the Moacube coder, not our Tom) does. Since they come from a HO background, they're used to add all those polishing details like animated backgrounds and more. When he approached me to ask info/suggestions, I was quite surprised that he decided to try with a VN as first title as indie, but now that I see the game (I played an alpha build) I think he made a good move

Thanks, Celso . But it's not entirely true. My first indie title was Magi - a weird strategy game about wizard duels. And I don't really come from HO background, as much as just from professional game development. Sure, our latest game was a HO, but I also worked on few other casual games, my own ArcMagi, and even had a brief romance with AAA game development while working on The Witcher.
What we're doing with Cinders, isn't just adding stuff we learned while developing our HO (though, that too), but making sure it's a high quality game in general. Something we feel many existing VNs lack.

I'm not suggesting we all band together or anything, just that those of us targeting a commercial release step up our game a little bit more and really push the genre forward. Like the Moacube game Cinders that was linked to - what is it doing different that we couldn't do? Couldn't have done already? Animated backgrounds and polished, professional art.

I very much agree with this. I'll be completely honest with you - one of the reasons we decided to make Cinders, is that me and my artist tried several VNs and were disappointed with them. Not with the content, but their general style and quality.
We thought: "These games are so fun to read, and it's such a great idea. Too bad that so much of the potential is wasted with these static images, all over the place art, lacking sound design and unfriendly interfaces. Wouldn't it be great to do something like that, but up to modern standards?".

And it's not like it's that hard or couldn't be done already. Especially as this forum seems to be brimming with talented individuals. MoaCube is not a big studio. Right now, the Cinders team is just me, my artist and a musician; with no external funding and just enough savings to afford the groceries for few months. From our outsider perspective, it's not that we're moving the genre forward, but simply that the current VNs are lagging behind the modern standards.

[jack_norton]

And it's not like it's that hard or couldn't be done already. Especially as this forum seems to be brimming with talented individuals. MoaCube is not a big studio. Right now, the Cinders team is just me, my artist and a musician; with no external funding and just enough savings to afford the groceries for few months. From our outsider perspective, it's not that we're moving the genre forward, but simply that the current VNs are lagging behind the modern standards.

Hmm I think groceries in Italy are more expensive
Jokes apart I don't think is so easy as you say. You know how many times told you that having a good artist like Gracjana Zielinska living nearby is probably one of the best thing to happen to an indie dev Working from distance with people (artist, coders, anything) is really hard for several different reasons. Of course you're also very skilled, and since you already worked together before with Phantasmat is another good thing. So I think you're underestimating yourself here. If was so "simple" to make such a quality VN I would have already done it

Now, I can make one of my infamous forecasts (which I used to do with some top casual developer in private). I think your game will be one of the best selling indie VNs, but if you submit them to portals like BFG it won't even get into the top100. This just to say that no matter what people think, pure VNs will never be "mainstream" on PC/Mac. It's a wish, but not a reality.
Of course in 3-4 months when the game is released and is top10 on a portal, feel free to come here and insult me in public since I'd deserve it