Why are eroge / hentai games less popular here?

[Nio]

It's pretty clear that eroge games are not very common/popular here. Just by looking at the completed games sections you see a large difference between normal and hentai. I'm just curious why that is? It's not that I think they -should- be more popular, but considering it's the internet and all... Also, I'm just curious from a marketing perspective. Do they not sell as well? Are they harder to make? Etc.

My original exposure to VNs were the eroge titles from Japan. As far as I can tell they make up the majority of these type of games over there. However, that could just be because they make up the majority of the commercial titles and I've had little to no exposure to the indie Japanese VN scene outside of DL Site.

But in the case of this community why do you think that is? Why are eroge style games less popular here?

Do you think they -are- more popular but those type of VN creators generally don't post here?

If you create non-eroge VNs was your introduction to VNs a non-eroge one?

From a commercial viability standpoint -- Do you think that eroge games are less appealing outside of Japan? Are they harder to sell? Are they harder to make?

[Aleema]

Eroge games are less popular than what? Other places? Or other types of games? I think this observation is a bit flawed, from whichever way you take it.

Sex is going to sell wherever you are. It'd be nice if it was in your language, but things rarely need to make sense if you just simply get turned on. Eroge is no less popular than any other type of VN outside of Japan, if not the most popular. In general, most 18+ games are the most torrented and have decent importing and commerical outlets. If I wanted to get my hands on a non-eroge otome game, for instance, that would be truly hard to do.

If you mean, there are more non-hentai games being made than hentai games, does that really mean hentai is being shunned? I think it's amazing that VNs aren't being equated to hentai. I think it's great it's being taken as a serious storytelling medium, not just moar pronz plz. (Not that I'm saying 18+ can't have good story, because they often do.) The last thing I want when I tell someone my hobby is for them to think, "oh naked anime girls?" Not because I have no respect for eroge, but because that's simply not the entire scope of the visual novel. It is a flavor, and one that it is known for, just like a celebrity's sex tape. People like sex, so it's what they hear about and seek out. But there's still aspects of that person left to know.

I also do not believe in the slightest that the majority of games Japan produces is eroge. That's ... so ... not ... true. Surely? That's seeing their industry through a filter, and then seeing our community through the same one. Have you seen a Japanese indie VN community? They make fluff out the wazoo. Non-H fluff. Hentai is often sold because it can be sold, because people will buy it. I would have to say that the same is true for non-Japanese VNs (granted, on a smaller scale since VNs aren't as popular in general).

My first VN was indeed eroge (because, again, it's so damn easy to get), but it wasn't my last and it didn't speak to me as a medium at that time.

If indeed eroge is "less popular," it's because the medium has lost its stigma for being a porn machine, and I think that's honestly a good thing.

[Nio]

I tried to clear up my first post a bit by adding that I mean there are more non-eroge games being made here (as in "this community") than not and I'm just curious as to why. I in no way think that it is a bad thing, just an observation.

[papillon]

Those of us who are doing commercial work pretty much can't sell hentai (I mean, we can, but it's complicated). And even if we did go that route, people paying for h-games tend to expect a high CG count, whereas most games here keep the number of CGs low-to-nonexistent, because the numbers don't add up for non-artists on tiny budgets. Zeiva's games, having direct artist involvement, have sky-high CG counts compared to almost everyone else.

Also, freelance artists tend to charge more for porn, making the budgets even harder to balance, both for people trying to turn a profit and people trying to fundraise for their hobbies.

As for the rougher amateur end, a lot of people here are young, not interested in porn, or not confident in their abilities to draw nekkid people. You can tell a non-sex story with pretty crap art and get away with it, but if the purpose of the game is to titillate, the art has to be titillating. People are probably better off writing smutty fanfic, they'll get a lot more attention and approval for it.

[Aleema]

To be honest, I think the influx in female designers has at least some small part to recent trends within the last year. Before then, I can't speak. But either women just aren't as interested in eroge (I like to joke that addiction to romance is a woman's version of men's addiction to sex), or to an even more indirect extent: the presence of women makes it more embarrassing to exploit them?

But I think in general, Ren'Py has become a storytelling medium, not just a that-Japanese-game-I-once-saw emulator.

[Nio]

It could also be that I haven't played enough of a variety of VNs. The ones I have played were centered around the sex or at least it felt like that was the goal of the game to a degree. Sort of like getting a boss battle in another game. But maybe I'm looking at it as a game in that way more than a story.

It's such a small niche market that it just seems like it would be filled more with eroge creators than not.

The comments about there being more female creators and the cost of hiring artists are things I hadn't considered and are interesting. I guess I was thinking about it more from my perspective of a guy that can do the art and code etc.

Good replies so far. Keep 'em coming.

[PyTom]

My gut feeling is there have been, so far, three big waves of English-language visual novel development. (I'm theorizing a bit here, so bear with me.)

The first wave was more-or-less inspired by the golden age of commercial hentai translations, from companies like g-collections and peach princess. For a while, g-collections were releasing translated games at rate of roughly one a month. (This was in 2003 until 2005.)

Games inspired by this wave tended to be ADVs, tended to be anime-inspired (using Japanese names, for example), and tended to have more romance-oriented plots, even if the weren't hentai games. IIRC, early in this phase, the forum was fairly old, with an average age in the mid-20s.

The second wave was probably inspired by fan translations, especially those of Tsukihime (2006) and Fate/stay night (2008). Second-wave games tended to have more action and fighting-oriented plots. These games also tended to use NVL-mode.

I think the third wave was the first inspired by English-language visual novels, especially sakevisual's work, like Re:Alistair, and the other early otome games. The third-wave games are often otome in nature, or at least female made. They use ADV style with fairly elaborate interfaces - how much of that is technological versus cultural is hard to tell.

These are my impressions, which may be wrong, and only cover some fraction of the forum.

I'm expecting a fourth wave, inspired by Katawa Shoujo, to begin to reach us sometime next year. (That's a wild-ass guess, however.)

[PyTom]

Does anyone mind if I move this to the main forum? I think it would be interesting to see other perspectives, and there isn't anything overly adult about this thread.

[Nio]

@PyTom: Yeah, I'm starting to think you're right, and I also think that I haven't kept up with the trends and thus am still stuck in the early 2000 era of things. (Man, I feel old).

Does anyone mind if I move this to the main forum? I think it would be interesting to see other perspectives, and there isn't anything overly adult about this thread.

I certainly don't mind. I wasn't sure where to put it. >.> I'll leave that up to you and the others.

[Suikama]

Man, I had a big post written up in your other thread, but then you went and deleted it right before I could post it!

Although it's slightly less relavent to this topic, I figure I'd just post it here anyways since the other topic is gone.

The biggest thing I have to say about the lack of popularity in English Visual Novels is that there is a severe lack of advertising. The reason why there is a large female audience on this site is because the developers of female-targetting VNs usually spread the word of thier releases over Twitter, DeviantArt, tumblr, LiveJournal, and other social networking sites, attracting interested parties and bringing them to this site. Meanwhile I have not seem the same of many other visual novels here. In other words the otome developers just happen to be doing things better than others. This does not mean that this is some sort of unavoidable truth. The majority of the audience is female only seems true because only they have been alerted of these games, but the rest of the internet is still an untapped market. Just look at Katawa Shoujo, which is clearly targeted towards males, but has a fairly large following and thier forums are as active if not more than this entire board.

It's true the 18+ subforum isn't very popular here, but there is a good reason for that. You need an account just to be able to see it. That means the general public is already automatically cut off from seeing it. That's not to say the demand doesn't exist, it definitely does.

I'm not sure about the indie VN scene in general, but one of the biggest indie VNs is one that breaks most steriotypes; the When they Cry series. They're horror/mystery Kinetic novels (so no choices) that doesn't really appeal to a specific gender, but most of all, it has infamously poor art, and yet it's managed to be one of the most popular series, with numerous anime, manga and other things made out of it.

So basically to reiterate my point, while your observations are not nessessarily incorrect, they aren't taking in a large factor into account, and that is the lack of advertising. The world is a very large and diverse place. No matter what kind of VN you make, as long as it's made well, there will be people who like it. The issue is how do you alert these people of the existance of your work? That's where advertising comes in.

Also on the note of Japanese eroges vs the ones here, keep in mind the Japanese ones are usually high budget, so they can afford good artists to draw pretty girls, while the people here are mostly (if not all) independent, and have to rely on our own skills or each other to get by.

[Nio]

Man, I had a big post written up in your other thread, but then you went and deleted it right before I could post it!

Gah! I'm sorry.

[Suikama]

It's okay cause I managed to save my post :V

[Blue Lemma]

I think a big reason for this is in how the LSF community developed. It started back in 2003 as my little game site forum, and that first game was Tales of Lemma. ToL was a non-hentai visual novel, and so a non-hentai base was set. Then PyTom came along with Ren'Py, enabling people to easily make VNs. These first VNs weren't hentai either. So there's always been a sort of non-hentai inertia, and that attracts more people interested in non-hentai English VNs... and so on.

I think another reason is that people here often stick around for a while, and they develop a reputation. In the United States, where I presume a great deal of the users are located, (and many other places as well) hentai/adult content development is not looked upon favorably by the general public. Since people like to link their other sites and be more personal here than on many other sites, it makes them think twice before becoming a hentai developer.

For people willing to spend money to make visual novels, there is already lots of competition in the hentai arena from localization companies like JAST and MangaGamer. That reduces the commercial incentive. As for non-commercial VN creators, there are only a handful who have the skill and dedication to create a professional-level game. Hentai is visual, and it requires professional level art to successfully convey its experience. Therefore, the only people who can pull it off to any degree are in this handful. Others will shy away. (This is along the lines of what papillon said)

And my last reason is that there is already a place for English hentai games - it's called Newgrounds (groan)

[SusanTheCat]

First Visual Novel was not eroge. Not even close. In fact, I haven't met a hentai game that I could even stand for more than ten minutes. All the titles I've looked at so far struck me at being more intended for a male audience.

Susan

[DaFool]

The 2nd wave in these forums can also be attributed to Al|together 2005-6 and Narcissu.

I made the first hentai game with Ren'Py. Though the most successful hentai game was made by GalaxyPink -- the Sexual Fantasy Kingdom series on DLsite (it seemed to have died down along with DLsite in recent years though).

Why did I do it? I wanted to experiment to see what it took. I've always experimented in my approach with mixed results. Heck, I didn't even make your standard BxG harem plot.

I then discovered that it took too much effort for very small return (narrow audience), and lost interest after I turned 30 (the raging hormones one has from 18-29 pretty much disappeared). And I cannot go back to hentai since I'm trying to expand into RPGs to get a wider audience for my games.

Also second the influx of otome-game-loving girls who care more about characterization and relationships than pictures of naked 2D girls and guys.