P V [Dating Sim] [BxG] [Trading Card Game] updated 6-20-2012

[KimiYoriBaka]

yes, you read the subject tags correctly. it'll be both a dating sim and a card game.

I present to you:

Phasma Veritatis

a hopefully commercial dating sim in which you obtain one of the heroines while playing a card game by the same name

plot: The main character (default name "Itoshiki Haru") is a new member of his high school's card game club. He's not really interested in most card games, but luckily the club has deteriorated to only playing trading card games. During the club activities he meets a variety of very interesting people including a handful of cute girls. The plot isn't much, but I'm also planning to have the game as open ended as if feasible.

setting: Right now I'm going with some anonymous place in tokyo (cause that seems like the most relevant place for a tcg, as most of them are japanese). With the premise being what it is, I figure it's fine to just give an atmosphere similar to Yugi-Oh or Duel Masters, just without the overly high-tech machines.

heroines:

Hashida Ami
The mc's underclassman who likes to hang out in his classroom at lunch. She's completely new to the concept of trading cards games, but is very enthusiastic about learning anything that will bring her closer to her precious senpai. She tends to need a lot of explaining to get new ideas, but once she understands something, she really understands it. While she doesn't have previous experience with many types of games, her hidden potential might be surprising...

Kuromachi Sena
The top player of the club, who likes to purposely use convoluted strategies to win. She doesn't seem to be fond of social interaction and shows it very clearly in her concise speech, and only tried to relate to other through games of strategy. As such, she is always willing to try a new game, or to teach others about the intricacies of gaming.

Kasuga Haruka
One of the more popular girls in school. Even though she is an official member of the card game club and shows up regularly, she doesn't show much enthusiasm towards card games. Outside of club, she wouldn't even seem the type to be interested in such things. If pressed, she will even flat-out deny it, even despite having a clear knowledge of the game that is most often played in the club. Having been brought up in a somewhat wealthy family, she may not have as much liberty in her interests as she would like.

(yes, she's a stereotypical rich tsundere, but whatever)

Machiko (haven't thought up a family name)
A local tournament player who goes to a different school, but has ties to Haruka. She also comes from a wealthy background, but has been allowed to live on her own as a way of compromising with her family. In short, she's a shameless gamer girl who has strong bonds with her parents, but would make a mess of things if she lived in the main house. She likes playing any games that allow her to feel like she's demolishing her opponent, particularly fighting games.


the card game itself
Named by one of my friends who speaks latin, "phasma veritatis" apparently mean "true falsehood" and was chosen mainly for the acronym "PV". The game system is a mix of elements from Magic, Yugi-Oh, and Duel Masters, and involves the typical themes of summoning monsters and destroying your opponent. My current plan is to have a base set of 250 cards (which I've already thought up and are just in need of artwork), then have an expansion come out half-way through the game that adds another 150. The artwork for the cards will intentionally be lower in quality than the rest of the game so as to make 400 card images a more managable task, as well as so the cards can be easier to distinguish at a distance.

attached is three card examples and a sketch of ami, who is the only character I've made any satisfactory designs for.

I was originally intending to announce this game after I got the card game working to the point where the starter decks could be played, but lately I've been finding myself working more on the dating sim half, so I thought it be good to start asking for input.

1. To start with, I've already started considering different difficulty level (most likely easy, normal and hard). However, is it likely that dating sim players will be turned away by having to play the card game? If so, is there any way around this?

2. If I allow the player to go anywhere they want at the start of the game, will that annoy players that aren't sure where to go?

3. Will it bother anyone if there are no stats other than affection?

[azureXtwilight]

Ohh, I like card-games!

1. I think some of people do, maybe turning off the card game option helps? But still, it'll be a lot less fun and if winning and losing influences the outcome a lot it'll be hard.
2. I don't think so. It helps with a walkthrough.
3. Not at all.

[gekiganwing]

...a hopefully commercial dating sim...

It sounds like you're still at the early stages of development. This is something you'll want to think about carefully. Be sure to ask other people for advice before you consider selling your game.

1. To start with, I've already started considering different difficulty level (most likely easy, normal and hard). However, is it likely that dating sim players will be turned away by having to play the card game? If so, is there any way around this?

2. If I allow the player to go anywhere they want at the start of the game, will that annoy players that aren't sure where to go?

3. Will it bother anyone if there are no stats other than affection?

First, perhaps you could offer the player three modes: "Full Game," "Card Game only," and "Romance Game only." This might be difficult to pull off, but it might also be a good way to appeal to a variety of people.

Second, where exactly could the player go, besides the club room? If the player can freely move from location to location, then make sure those places make sense, and are relevant to your plot. (Have you played the freeware game "Heartache 101"? If not, give it a shot. The main character can go to several locations at the beginning, and discover more later on.)

Third, you can include as many or as few stats as you want. Decide what the scope of your project will be. If you want to keep it relatively simple, focus on the card game, and include just one statistic and simple relationship paths, then that is certainly an option.

One more thought: "Will it blend?" Do you intend for your card game to be integrated with your romance game, and vice versa? Video game gameplay roulette used to be more common, though you can still find current examples in relatively mainstream games. This is neither good nor bad. There are plenty of quality games in which the types and styles of gameplay do not blend perfectly. (For instance, I still like the early SNES game Actraiser, which was an uneven mix of side scrolling action and Simcity with even more disasters. And the basic concepts of Sakura Wars could have been two or three distinctly different games. The franchise is a combination of 1920s + Steampunk + Musical Theater + Mecha + Strategy RPG + Worksafe Harem + Dramedy. Despite some complaints, I liked game #5.)

[KimiYoriBaka]

"Full Game," "Card Game only," and "Romance Game only."

"card game only" would be the same as just playing through while being a jerk to everyone, and "romance game only" would require either some way for deciding how the player fares or some way of bypassing the parts of the story that involve the card game. regardless of how it's done, I don't think this would be a good idea to have this as an upfront choice, as it would mean sacrificing a great deal of what makes up the characters.

I'm definitely going to require the player to try out the card game at least once. Other than that, I could leave the option open as to whether to actually play the card game, as long as the player wouldn't mind having to eventually deal with the main character leaving the club.

What do you think of the compromise of having the option of avoiding half the game, but at the cost of a higher difficulty to get a good end in the part of the game the player chooses?

where exactly could the player go, besides the club room?

I have a list lying around of places I came up with, but it mostly involves different places to hang out, both in the school and around the town. I figure the main places the main character would go to would be the clubroom, the local game store, his own home, and any place the other club members felt like going. Besides that, I like the idea of having other types of shops where the mc can buy random gifts and things.

Have you played the freeware game "Heartache 101"?

downloading...

Will it blend?

I'm not really concerned about this. From what I've seen, dating sims are essentially just games in which you need to get a person to fall in with the main character. as such, it isn't hard to just write a story such that the romance is part of the gameplay. isn't that what bioware has been doing for a while?

On that subject, though, I would also like to try integrating the personalities of the opponents into the card game. Most of this will just be a question of how much I can work on the ai before going insane, but there is also the possibility of including casual chats while the characters are playing. This would definitely work for blending the dating sim with the card game, but it also could get annoying for the players who try to focus on the game.

possibly the inclusion of dialogue, but also the inclusion of a "Could you please shut up?" button?

Code: Select all

if winning and losing influences the outcome a lot it'll be hard.

aside from the possible compromise mentioned above, I am planning to make it easy to get good endings as long as the player is trying to get a certain girl. the card game element would cause the play time to extend pretty drastically, so I wouldn't expect players to play again just to get a certain girl.

At the very least, winning will only matter if the player is trying to make the mc become a tournament champion, which won't make too much of a difference for the heroines.

[netravelr]

I really like the idea, and I'm excited to see what you do with the game! With that being said, I'd very much recommend opening up new areas as the game continue rather than having it all open at once. If your game is going to be more complex than Blackjack chances are people will need a good tutorial and from my experience the more you can make your game NOT seem like a tutorial the better, so making new areas a reward for playing seems like a good idea to me. Just my 2 cents.

[KimiYoriBaka]

progress update:

still working on getting the card game to be playable, but on the bright side, it is now possible to complete a game against a dummy ai as long as there's no effects used. This is progress cause it means attacking and playing cards works. on the more depressing side of things, the interface is going to take a lot of work to get all the bugs out. apparently renpy doesn't like my way of making the pop-up menus for what can be done with each card.

So far though, it looks like I'll be able to fit the whole card game within 800x600 pixels, so I won't need to worry about moving the view around, which would be a major hassle.

I've been doing some writing of individual scenes, but I haven't gotten around to fleshing out the overall plots for each route. I do at least have a plan for how each one should go. I've also decided on a time frame for the story: 4 months, with half the time being for attracting the girls and the other half for the actual relationship. If all goes well, this should give plenty of time for the player to actually get to know the chosen heroine, as well as also give enough time for a player that doesn't care about the dating sim aspect to collect every card in the game.

on the more concrete side of things, here's some sketches. the one marked as such is kuromachi, while the others are ideas for possible opponents. something to note if anyone comments about them: kuromachi is supposed to be wearing clothes meant for someone about a head taller than her.

[KimiYoriBaka]

sorry about double post, but it feels like it'd be pointless to edit this into the last post when this thread has no traffic.

anyway, firstly, I've got some possible mini-games I'm working on, but I'm not very confident about whether my code will work on other computers. I don't really know much about how computers can differ from machine to machine, and I'd rather not get weird surprises later. the attached file contains two prototypes for playtesting.

since it's convenient, here's some questions I have about them:
1. the most important thing, do either of the games lag?

2. are they too distracting to be put in a dating sim?

3. would it be fun to watch one or more of the heroines try/fail at these games while the mc chats with them?

4. other than these, are there any game genres that it would be fun to watch the same heroines try/fail at?


another thing of relevance to this project. I've started a blog for this and any future game projects I might attempt. it doesn't have much right though.

btw, am I the only one that gets a horribly sickening feeling when attempting to blog?

[mugenjohncel]

I have a suggestion... please hear me out...

About the card game graphics... what if...

You invite (aka... recruit) various guest artist to do at least one art for the card game part... it would be much more interesting if say you allow individual artistic license like in Ren'py Tarrot Card... this way you could concentrate on the actual art for the Dating Sim while various guest artists will slowly build up the art assets for the card game and still not suffer burnout (since they only need to do only one art) of course you have to credit them properly like in Magic the Gathering cards where the name of the artist who did the image is written in the front and you could push it further by adding a URL to visit the particular artist like a deviantart or website or twitter or even email...



I just can't resist...

"POOF" (Disappears)

[gekiganwing]

Back a month or two ago, you said, "I've also decided on a time frame for the story: 4 months, with half the time being for attracting the girls and the other half for the actual relationship." Good idea. That way, there can be balance between the main character trying to make a decision, and the characters committing to their relationships.

1. the most important thing, do either of the games lag?

2. are they too distracting to be put in a dating sim?

3. would it be fun to watch one or more of the heroines try/fail at these games while the mc chats with them?

4. other than these, are there any game genres that it would be fun to watch the same heroines try/fail at?

1. I tried both of the games. Both ran at a decent speed on my Windows laptop (which has a lot of RAM but only 1.6 GHZ processing). Neither seemed to falter.

2. At best, mini-games can be good additions to a solid game, as well as ways to add diverse gameplay and enjoyable distractions. At worst, they can be out of place, frustrating, and/or detrimental to the overall gameplay. Therefore, consider what you want to make. If your goal is to make a mini-game compilation, then include as many as you want, but don't make them mandatory. If your game is first and foremost about the characters, their relationships, and the plot, then make the mini-games purely optional.

3. How exactly would the main character (and/or the audience) watch the NPCs play games? Please let us know how this would work. Are we simply reading about how they play games, or do you have something else in mind?

4. Again, I'm not sure. But don't compel yourself to create additional content unless it's relevant to your goals, and unless you are interested in spending the effort to program it.

[KimiYoriBaka]

@gekiganwing:
did you try the bullet hell one with the tips on? that's a lesser version of what I'll use. I'm going to work on passing a character object to it so it can fully imitate the renpy say screen. I'll also have it read the cps setting in preferences. lastly, I also have an idea on how to switch back and forth between renpy and renpygame, so when the girl playing the game puts on a really interesting facial expression, I can show it then return to the game, with the time in the mini-game sped forward a bit for consistency.

as for how optional the mini-games would be, I've been thinking more and more that everything the player can do in this game should be purely optional. I've even been planning to, at some point, write out a calender of all the things each girl will do for the 4 months in the game in the case that the mc completely ignores all of them. Ami would have to be written slightly differently for this, since she supposed to be already acquainted with the mc at the start, but for the other three this should give a good base for all the events.

@mugen:
I can see a lot of merit in your idea, especially in the area of getting myself as well as other artists known. However, I think that would work better in a more eclectic project. I would like to have a thoroughly developed world for the player to mess around in, which to me means having a good sense of unity throughout.

also, your card effect reminds me of tanto cuore.

[EroBotan]

can't you consider Mugen's idea one more time?

Sapphi seems to love it too

Pertaining to Uncle Mugen's brilliant post full of handsomeness and win in this thread -

Wouldn't it be cool if there was an "EVN TCG" game?
No idea how the gameplay and rules would work, no idea how it would be implemented, but the idea of everyone submitting "Theme Decks" based on the characters and events in their games sounds like it would be fun. You could play with one story's deck or collect the cards from multiple stories and make your own super-deck. And the gallery feature could be implemented as your "card album".

I think it would be fun to play.
(It would not, however, be fun to make, at all, and would also probably contain gratuitous spoilers for everything.)

[KimiYoriBaka]

(It would not, however, be fun to make, at all, and would also probably contain gratuitous spoilers for everything.)

this is very very true. I can not emphasize enough how true this is. I've only stated it so far in my blog post, so I'll mention it here; I've been working on this game since november. right now, I still don't have enough cards to satisfy what I would consider the min. requirement (400, which is half of the standard 800 these games usually have), mainly because almost half the card ideas have to be rejected for balance reasons. most of the months of work I've done is just to figure out how to get the card game itself to work right and how to code it properly. what's more, I still have to code the 100+ different effects.

there's two other problems with this idea. 1. the balance would be exponentially harder to maintain when having a bunch of different sources for cards. 2. you'd have to come up with a set of game mechanics that support all the different characters without being broken. this is a lot harder than it seems.

while I agree that mugen's post is awesome, I'm not making the kind of game that would fit this idea. the premise is based around a tcg, but the game itself is still going to be a dating sim. If you want to make a tcg based around various evn stories and such, that's fine, and I'll even help if you need advice on the game mechanics and coding, but it needs to be a separate project from this one

[EroBotan]

i see, that makes sense ^^

[gekiganwing]

It has been almost a month. If you don't mind me asking, how are game development and writing going?

[KimiYoriBaka]

I don't mind you asking at all. In fact, I'd prefer if more people took an interest (my friends in rl aren't very interested at all).

I haven't been able to be very productive lately cause of frequent heat rashes, noise, etc... but I have managed to write some of the more important events for each route, mainly confessions and particularly unusual scenes. One thing that's making it take longer for each scene is that I'm trying to include a lot of choices that have only a minor impact. It'll probably mean having less consistency between individual scenes, but I think that will work better for getting the right difficulty and getting the more an immersive dating feel.

For the card game, I've thought up more card ideas, but most of the actual programming has been working out small annoying issues with the card game interface (which inevitably has a lot of issues cause it's like 3000 lines of code just for the base game mechanics). I still haven't gotten to the point of being able to play a full game electronically.

I have gotten a better sense of character designs, but I've been drawing them only in groups. I found that actually makes it easier for me to think. I figure I can draw the actual sprites after I've drawn more group pics involving each character.