Twelve [Sci-Fi][KN] (Update August 06)

[Sapphi]

Hi! Also: wow!

Ah, the happiest thing to read at the top of a critique...

After seeing the scans of a wide-eyed cat girl, I admit some amount of, um, trepidation. The story, however, was sweet and clever and fairly well written. In fact, transferring the AI's consciousness to the animal's body was a downright inspired twist. Over all, it's a wonderful series of vignettes about the weirdness of love.

You know, I never thought about what people might think of her design. But since I came up with it in what I want to say was my sophomore year of high school and those particular sketches are senior-year era, I guess I can see how someone might look at it and groan, "Oh no!" I'm very glad the story exceeded your expectations, though, and that you liked the cat body thing.

Some critiques, though: you're doing this from the AI's point-of-view, so what we know about the programmer we can only glean from his inputs. I totally agree with your choice, but sometimes Master's dialogue was too on the nose. We don't need the programmer to say "I am lonely." Master, after all, programmed a robot to love him. We can guess at a few of his motivations. And besides, when Master talks about the real cat later, it quite obviously reflects himself.

Hm, I think you're right. That's the plot talking and not the character. I was struggling a bit since I'm not quite sure that if you were teaching an AI, you would want to beat around the bush too much when answering questions (since you don't want to confuse it, and besides, an AI won't judge you no matter how honest you are) but I do see now how it's rather unnecessary for him to explicitly say things like that.

Some of Twelve's observations, too, dwell too obviously on its love for Master. Clearly, it's supposed to be in love, and was programmed to love, but hitting us over the head with (barely sexual) childlike love again and again is sometimes too much.

I'll definitely keep this in mind for the rewrite. I was going for "I am a computer, and I make obvious comments" because I thought it would be cute, but I don't want to accidentally insult or annoy the readers. I hope once I rework the script you will return to comment on whether or not I've been successful in this area.

Originally, also, I was going to critique the easy definition of love that Master offers, but looking back on it, it sets up the ending well. So: NICE.

Thank you ^_^
Although, since it jumped out at you, maybe that means his response was too "conveniently blatant" for the purposes of the plot, and I could perhaps rewrite that scene so that his definition is arrived at after some discussion rather than just delivered? I'm trying to toe that troublesome line between "poetically brief" and "some semblance of real life". If you lean too far one way, it's too elementary, and if you lean too far the other, it's too waterlogged... pacing is so easy to critique in someone else's work but so hard to pinpoint in one's own...

(By the way, did you mean for the AI's "Master" label for its creator to be that creepy and unnerving?)

I did not - I thought it was sweet and childlike, and I liked the sort of tragic echo it lent to her dialogue.
This is probably because the original story I wrote in high school was much more character-centric, so you knew more about the programmer, and Twelve was more humanized, so I think "Master" came across more as an affectionate term and it just stuck in my mind as such since then.
I have to ask, though... is it creepy and unnerving in a good way, or does it just squick you out?

That's the most I can critique it, though, for what it sets out to accomplish, it achieves.

Well, it makes me really happy to hear that. ;w;
Thanks for taking the time to read and give me your thoughts. Your critiques on my writing were just the kind I was hoping to receive!

[TheTourist]

What the Master says to the AI and what the reader sees doesn't have to be the same. The Master might answer its "Why did you make me?" but maybe the game jumps scenes before that happens.

Also, I just found the "Master" label unnerving because he programmed -- that is to say, essentially controlled -- the AI to love him. This is a love robot, or a lovebot, calling its own "Master." Throwing in the Master doesn't seem childlike, in that regard (I never called my mother or father "Master"), but maybe that's just me. I really do think it's personal preference and you shouldn't worry about it, since it didn't seem to bother anyone else.

[Sapphi]

What the Master says to the AI and what the reader sees doesn't have to be the same. The Master might answer its "Why did you make me?" but maybe the game jumps scenes before that happens.

I'll try to keep that in mind. The script revision might take the form of a rough playable version with sketches and placeholder graphics.

Also, I just found the "Master" label unnerving because he programmed -- that is to say, essentially controlled -- the AI to love him. This is a love robot, or a lovebot, calling its own "Master." Throwing in the Master doesn't seem childlike, in that regard (I never called my mother or father "Master"), but maybe that's just me. I really do think it's personal preference and you shouldn't worry about it, since it didn't seem to bother anyone else.

I thought long and hard about this at work (I wonder what my coworkers would think if they knew the kind of thoughts that occupy my brain).

On the one hand, I definitely understand where you are coming from and I feel that a lot of readers would have the same reaction. It's a little worrisome that the inherent creepiness will distract from the focus of the story. It's supposed to be about the futility of it all, but since I am a bit of an "emotional animist", it's also supposed to be a love story. Sort of, "This is hopeless and depressing - but not completely." I wanted to invoke that "Power of Love" trope at the end, albeit in a logical fashion and not magical sparkly fairy dust Deus ex Machina. (Hopefully I succeeded...)

I worry that if she calls him Master, people will be distracted by "Ew, what kind of a creep is this guy" and not be able to think of him sympathetically. I want people to have pity for him, not to be disgusted by him. I think the story has the most impact if you feel bad for both of them. If that's not happening, that is something I want to work on. I do think that the deciding line between pity/disgust is not always on the part of the author but in the reader's brain, so I'm not sure how much of this is my "responsibility". (There were times reading Lolita that I really felt sorry for the protagonist... meanwhile I know from online reviews that some people were so disgusted they threw the book at the wall.)

On the other hand, I feel like whether or not she calls him Master, the fact that she exists at all is inherently creepy, and that most of those who will be creeped out, will already be creeped out by the premise and all that it implies without the label... Then again, maybe it's overkill, the back-breaking straw.

I'm kind of torn between "Evoke a feeling in others" vs "Evoke a feeling in myself"... so torn, in fact, that I had to take some painkillers before writing this post.

[TheTourist]

You definitely succeeded in invoking the odd irrationality of love -- and I didn't think the story was depressing, actually, despite the ending. It was just... accurate. Love makes people do seemingly (and still possibly) stupid things. Master's experiment succeeded too well. (Okay, actually, considering the fates of the previous eleven, maybe it is a little depressing... But I still liked it.)

The graphics you use, of course, will also make a huge difference.

[Mink]

Okay, first:

1. Does something like this need a bookmark/save slot?

Not to me it does; it doesn't take THAT long to read. Then again, some people might be annoyed by not having the option to.

2. Have I accidentally plagiarized any science fiction stories? (I sincerely do not know where my ideas come from anymore, could be something I read as a child)

Not that I can think of. <_<

3. Does this have any potential?

Yeah, I just personally find the guy to be unsympathetic, when I actually sit and think about this, and I'm assuming he's supposed to be.

4. Why am I shaking so much?

Aw, don't feel that way. I criticize because I care. When I don't care or don't feel something has a least #3, I wouldn't waste any time doing this.

On the other hand, I feel like whether or not she calls him Master, the fact that she exists at all is inherently creepy, and that most of those who will be creeped out, will already be creeped out by the premise and all that it implies without the label... Then again, maybe it's overkill, the back-breaking straw.

I'm kind of torn between "Evoke a feeling in others" vs "Evoke a feeling in myself"... so torn, in fact, that I had to take some painkillers before writing this post.

It'd probably be a bit less weird if she didn't call him 'Master'. At least without it, you could probably argue that it's to see if A.I.s can be programmed to love, so this would be further used to develop emotions in A.I.s so they don't try to murder everyone, which pop culture seems to find inevitable. For me, it's the 'Master' part that tips it into, "WTF is wrong with him? He created something specifically to love him? Does he not want to deal with, oh horrors, those terrible human women? Is he just a control freak like the woman in Splice*?"

...Barring that, I didn't actually dislike it, though. I'm just like, "...8|" towards the guy, which kinds of dampens it.

I don't know, maybe if he at least was like, "Uh, you don't have to call me that" at some point, it wouldn't be as bad, but I keep picturing someone going, "Yesss, call me Master" while steepling their fingers in an evil manner. Kind of like this. >_>

*In Splice, it gets made pretty clear that the wife (who's name I don't remember and I'm too lazy to look up)

didn't actually want at child, she wanted control, which explains the way she tended to treat/interact with Dren.

[Sapphi]

4. Why am I shaking so much?

Aw, don't feel that way. I criticize because I care. When I don't care or don't feel something has a least #3, I wouldn't waste any time doing this.

I really was terrified when I posted this thread, lol.
I feel better now that it seems to have had a mostly positive reception.
I'm not afraid of well-meaning criticism, but it's still scary to put something you love out for public scrutiny. XD

For me, it's the 'Master' part that tips it into, "WTF is wrong with him? He created something specifically to love him? Does he not want to deal with, oh horrors, those terrible human women? Is he just a control freak like the woman in Splice*?"

I'm keeping that in mind. I went through and changed her lines a bit (having her occasionally address him as "Sir" and in third person as "my master" instead), and I think it does sound less creepy.

I'm going to (try to) make him a little more sympathetic so it doesn't just seem like she exists because he doesn't want to deal with "those terrible human women". Rest assured... I have a plan!

I don't know, maybe if he at least was like, "Uh, you don't have to call me that" at some point, it wouldn't be as bad, but I keep picturing someone going, "Yesss, call me Master" while steepling their fingers in an evil manner. Kind of like this. >_>

See, I love the fact that you guys are commenting about this because I didn't think of it that way at all.

[Tempus]

*One year later*

I liked it.

1. Does something like this need a bookmark/save slot?
I read it in one sitting and think most people would, so I'd say no.

2. Have I accidentally plagiarized any science fiction stories? (I sincerely do not know where my ideas come from anymore, could be something I read as a child)
I'm not really a sci-fi buff; the closest thing it reminds me off is a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex episode from the first season (episode three, to be specific!). A guy basically falls in love with his android and tries to run off with her. It ends with her apparently gaining real emotions and thoughts of her own, though it turns out the android and the guy were actually reciting lines from the dialogue of an old B&W movie. Not very similar, but it reminded me of it.

3. Does this have any potential?
No! Start again! Heh, nah. It definitely does otherwise I wouldn't have written this post ^.^

4. Why am I shaking so much?
It's excitement! Though, presumably you haven't been shaking for a whole year straight. If you have, see a doctor immediately

I didn't really find the use of "master" creepy because the way the guy is subsequently characterised doesn't make him creepy. If anything, the use of "master" reminded me of the master / slave dynamic of harddrives. Though, as this article explains, it doesn't actually mean what it first sounds like (for HDDs anyway). He didn't seem focused on Twelve bestowing titles on him (as in some power fetish), nor did the name calling seem like a sex game. The story carries no real connotation of either of those things in itself; I'd suggest it's a projection by readers onto the character, rather than traits the character necessarily appears to have. I'm not saying that you as an author didn't intend for it to be creepy, therefore it isn't; I'm saying there's nothing, after reading the story in full, that leads me to believe the character is acting on creepy motivations.

Also, to me, something like "sir" sounds more fetishistic than "master"; I'd suggest that "sir" is often used in sex games in a playful manner and while "master" might be too, I think that's less common and only really occurs when domination by one party is happening (something which *clearly* isn't the case in Twelve). Further, "master" is already something AIs commonly call their... masters in sci-fi anyway -- without sexual connotation. The latter is how I read it.

Maybe later in the story, to help Twelve feel more "real", he'd suggest she call him by his name? While that makes sense to me, I think having him known by his relationship toward Twelve (just as Twelve is known by her number) helps make the story more universal. The moment you call him James or Danny or Omar or Li you narrow down the places the reader is likely to think of him living in. Right now this could take place anywhere and I think getting specific with names could squander that great aspect of the story. Though you could circumvent this by giving him a nickname / pseudonym, like what'd be used on a forum. That could personalise him more without narrowing down his implied culture / ethnicity.

Anyway, I can't wait to play it.

And er, sorry, this is kind of a bigger post than I intended >.> Also sorry for super necroposting.

Edit: I should note that I've had this tab open for a week and have been meaning to reply. So... I'm working off my week-old memory of the script. Apologies for any mistakes I made!

[Sapphi]

*One year later*

I liked it.

AWRIGHT!

No really, thanks for posting, because I was just thinking about how I've been neglecting this thread and how I should post something to let everyone know I'm alive and still working on it! I'm actually kind of mortified that it's taken me this long - it was intended to be a quicker thing.

On that note, because the script has come a long way in that time, I'm taking the old version down from the opening post.

I'm not really a sci-fi buff; the closest thing it reminds me off is a Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex episode from the first season (episode three, to be specific!). A guy basically falls in love with his android and tries to run off with her. It ends with her apparently gaining real emotions and thoughts of her own, though it turns out the android and the guy were actually reciting lines from the dialogue of an old B&W movie. Not very similar, but it reminded me of it.

Hey, I loved that episode! ^_^

4. Why am I shaking so much?
It's excitement! Though, presumably you haven't been shaking for a whole year straight. If you have, see a doctor immediately

Don't worry... I'm much more comfortable now than I was a year ago about sharing my ideas... wow, now that I look back, I have become a bit more confident, haven't I? Reading the replies to this thread isn't as scary now

I didn't really find the use of "master" creepy because the way the guy is subsequently characterised doesn't make him creepy. If anything, the use of "master" reminded me of the master / slave dynamic of harddrives. Though, as this article explains, it doesn't actually mean what it first sounds like (for HDDs anyway). He didn't seem focused on Twelve bestowing titles on him (as in some power fetish), nor did the name calling seem like a sex game. The story carries no real connotation of either of those things in itself; I'd suggest it's a projection by readers onto the character, rather than traits the character necessarily appears to have. I'm not saying that you as an author didn't intend for it to be creepy, therefore it isn't; I'm saying there's nothing, after reading the story in full, that leads me to believe the character is acting on creepy motivations.

Thanks - the majority of people who've read this have told me it wasn't creepy to them.

Also, to me, something like "sir" sounds more fetishistic than "master"; I'd suggest that "sir" is often used in sex games in a playful manner and while "master" might be too, I think that's less common and only really occurs when domination by one party is happening (something which *clearly* isn't the case in Twelve). Further, "master" is already something AIs commonly call their... masters in sci-fi anyway -- without sexual connotation. The latter is how I read it.

Interesting. I'll keep that view in mind.

Maybe later in the story, to help Twelve feel more "real", he'd suggest she call him by his name? While that makes sense to me, I think having him known by his relationship toward Twelve (just as Twelve is known by her number) helps make the story more universal. The moment you call him James or Danny or Omar or Li you narrow down the places the reader is likely to think of him living in. Right now this could take place anywhere and I think getting specific with names could squander that great aspect of the story. Though you could circumvent this by giving him a nickname / pseudonym, like what'd be used on a forum. That could personalise him more without narrowing down his implied culture / ethnicity.

Right now, I do indeed have him suggesting that.
And I've also refrained from mentioning his name for exactly the reason you specified. I feared that giving him a specific name would be shifting the focus in a way I didn't want it to shift. (For the record, he does have a real name that makes his ethnicity really obvious. )

Anyway, I can't wait to play it.

I can't wait to finish it so you can play it!

And er, sorry, this is kind of a bigger post than I intended >.> Also sorry for super necroposting.

What! Don't apologize for writing a lot or for giving my forgotten WIP thread more attention... these are both good things for me!

Edit: I should note that I've had this tab open for a week and have been meaning to reply. So... I'm working off my week-old memory of the script. Apologies for any mistakes I made!

From one procrastinator to another: I forgive you.