Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [done!]

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TeeGee
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#61 Post by TeeGee » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:00 am

Jason wrote:Wow, she handpainted all of the artworks and textures I've seen for the game so far?! That's some awesome artist you got alright. I've always thought games like these always uses the same kind of trick, my apologies if that came out as rude. But then I believe it's gonna take her a lot of time per artwork? How long does she take then for a background of that quality?
It depends on the artwork really. This one is pretty important, as it's right there in the main menu and has a lot of animation going on, so time was of no concern. It was all done by hand, through several iterations. For less prominent places, she sometimes uses textures or copies little elements from other backdrops to save time, but it's still hand drawn. She also used some basic 3d models to get perspective right on a few locations. It looked too rigid, so we stopped doing it.

Characters are all done by hand too, though she sometimes uses photos as pose reference.

A backdrop like this takes from two days to a week to complete. This particular one was closer to a week, but I'd say it was totally worth it.

Jason wrote:From the seminar I've attended last time from IGDA(Internation Game Developers Association), they showed about making use of offset filter in photoshop to generate repeating textures, then there's also objects blended into the scene then they just color balance or adjust hue/saturation. The girl even said, don't be afraid of cheating because it's the final result that matters. My other friend who's also working there (Socrates Gucor) said that most of them are using the particular process especially if there's a deadline.
It's also common for casual game studios to overpaint 3d renders or photos and the just add a little detail here and there. It's time efficient, but I personally think it shows. It gives all those HOPA games a certain "cheap" feel, even if you can't really point out what exactly is wrong or off.

What's funny, I was never fully convinced it makes that much sense business-wise either. Check the screenshots from Phantasmat. All art in that games was hand painted by the Cinders/Solstice artist and another friend who used to work with us. I think it gives it a more distinct and refined look, and I'd say the artwork was one of the main reasons why it held the top spot for so long.
Last edited by TeeGee on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#62 Post by ktalkimist » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:16 am

So, Boomzap uses stock photos or...? I mean, where do they get the assets they use in their tricks from?

TeeGee, can you please look at the background art available in our game's thread (link in my sig) and give your honest opinion on it? Does it look cheap? If so, how do you think should we improve it?

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#63 Post by TeeGee » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:25 am

ktalkimist wrote:So, Boomzap uses stock photos or...? I mean, where do they get the assets they use in their tricks from?
I don't know about Boomzap's exact process, but usually it's something like this:
1) Prepare a concept artwork. Just a basic sketch of the background.
2) Either make a quick 3D render of it (if it's a complex location) or just draw it in Photoshop. This part is often outsourced.
3) Do a little overpaint, add filters and textures, sometimes objects from stocks to touch it up.

ktalkimist wrote:TeeGee, can you look at the background art available in our game's thread (link in my sig) and give your honest opinion on it? Does it look cheap? If so, how can we improve it?
I think they look pretty freaking awesome, personally. :)

For me, cheapness comes from clashing styles or inconsistencies covered with use of "cheap" tricks. Your artist clearly has a great sense of composition and perspective, so even if the artworks look more like a sketch and use photos to fill some spots at the concept stage, the final piece has a very distinct and consistent style. I like it very much! :)

If anything, I'd say the image in the original post looks a bit grainy. As if it was a victim of an overzealouss jpg compression.
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#64 Post by ktalkimist » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:34 am

That's great to hear! Especially coming from the guy behind the visually stunning Cinders and Solstice (as it's shaping up to be).

We will be facing the consistency problem soon in creating the event CGs since background and character art are from separate artists. Any beginner mistakes that we should look out for? Or tips on how to consolidate the two?

The way we plan to do it right now will come into fruition in the next few days, so I don't know how our current method will turn out yet. :P

Imgur's compression is the culprit, I think.

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#65 Post by TeeGee » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:41 am

ktalkimist wrote:We will be facing the consistency problem soon in creating the event CGs since background and character art are from separate artists. Any beginner mistakes that we should look out for? Or tips on how to consolidate the two?
Consistent inconsistencies are still okay (if that makes any sense ;)).

I'm used to CGs being a "special treat" and looking somewhat different from the usual gameplay. As long as it's not like the same character looks completely different in each CG, it's fine by me. Then again, Katawa Shoujo had a bit of a problem there and I didn't really mind it that much.
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#66 Post by jack_norton » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:12 am

Yes imgur compresses the images badly :)
I have games with different CG artists, is not a big problem. I never had a complaint.
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#67 Post by ktalkimist » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:48 am

jack_norton wrote:Yes imgur compresses the images badly :)
I have games with different CG artists, is not a big problem. I never had a complaint.
You do a nice job at it! Did you spend a lot of time choosing the right artists? Or did your talent pool just snowball after your first few games?

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#68 Post by jack_norton » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:37 am

Artists are a major PITA (not just for me, everyone I spoke with said this). Finding reliable one is harder than finding good ones :)
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#69 Post by TeeGee » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:19 pm

Haha. I would say that finding reliable people in general is painful as hell ;).
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#71 Post by vinegar » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:25 am

Hi all! I'm new here, and this is my first post. I'm the artist behind Cinders and Solstice. Tom asked to me to come here and share some info about the process, so here I am. First of all - thanks so much for all the nice comments! It really made my day :)

Here's a picture explaining some steps and iterations:
Image

Here's a gif animation, showing a few screens from the process:
Image

Click on all pictures to open them in new window, these are just thumbs. They're quite big, and I didn't want to spam the forums on my first day ;)

As for general process - Tom summed it up pretty well. We do use shortcuts sometimes. For example if I painted one lantern that will suit some locations - I will simply re-use it, repainting it a bit so it fits other places. Same thing goes for other details, especially foliage. Although I do not like to directly use photos in my work. That means most things are painted from scratch. That said - I do use a lot of textures. Pretty random. They give more depth, and painting on them makes the detail look more interesting.

For example - in Panorama's case I took the first draft and placed lots of random textures on it in Overlay, Soft Light or Multiply mode (depending on the texture). They were pretty random things, like a texture of stones, wall, grass, wood. The idea is that they will add some randomness to the whole thing, not that they will actually show its detail. I just like to have a textured underpainting, so the detail painted on top will "pop" more. Hope that makes some sense ;)

Also, sometimes, when in a hurry, I will take a bunch of random photos, blur them, mix them together and paint something on top of them to get the first "shape" of the location. See the Workshop here:

Image

This is *not* my favourite location, but I'm showing it just to give you the idea how to use the photo without making it look like a photo and creating a background that looks out of place. In this case I took 2 or 3 photos of random "workshops" I found on Google, blended them, painted a lot on top of them to get the general structure. Then I set the whole scene - added first plane items (the wall, and a pipe taken from another Solstice's location). What I got (picture at the bottom) looks sort of random, but thanks to the photo I already had the proportions right and knew characters will look okay there (I keep a layer with characters in every file, just to see how they blend with the background). And then I simply painted on top of it and coloured it. This definitely makes the whole process much quicker, and it's still painted, not photo-manipulated.

Sometimes, as Tom said, we use some 3D. Although it's rare, we often find it looks too "plastic". Not the best word to describe it, but you'll see what I mean. The Bathhouse will be a good example, also showing how we use textures:

Image

In this case my boyfriend, who wanted to practice some 3D, did a quick render, based on my quick sketch. As you can see my original concept was quite different. The perspective was off and clumsy, but it showed the mood we were aiming for. But as you can see - the render, even though correct, feels a bit too.. fake. And clean. Hence it only served as an underpainting. The final location only uses the proportions of the render, everything else is handpainted. As for textures - I used some of my own for details (the fountain, pot), but they are also heavily overpainted. I take photos of interesting details everywhere, so I can use them in my work for small things, like here. So the bits on the fountain come from a cheap plate found in Morocco, while the pink flowers in the pot are from my Mom's bouqet. That said - if you'd see original photos you wouldn't recognize them, as I said - I always overpaint such small details so they fit the scene better. Usually to the point that they end up looking completely different.

As for other companies, especially the ones making HOPA games, I know for a fact it varies. I did art for at least 3 or 4 games in this genre, and it always depends on the company. Some use renders and don't even overpaint them much. Some, as it's been already mentioned, do photomanipulations - most of them actually. Some paint things from scratch, with just some texture here and there, and those look the best in my opinion (for example Drawn games). But in the end, as Jason said, the final effect counts. The problem is many artists don't really take the effort to polish the whole scene, and it often shows. It's one thing to just use a bunch of photos together, the real effort comes when you have to paint a scene out of it. So, nothing bad in using photos in general, but it's the actual painting that makes it look good or not in the end in my opinion.

ktalkimist - the background you have posted looks absolutely awesome! Photo or not, it doesn't matter, because it just looks stylised and painterly. As for the consistency, I think if you'll keep the same style for the characters and the same for backgrounds, even though the two are different, you'll still have a great looking game. As Tom said - there is also power in inconsistent style.. if it's done consistently.. Okay, that sounded weird perhaps, but I hope you know what I mean ;) Basically it would look bad if you had one photo background, one painted, and one anime character, a second one a bit more realistic etc. That would look off. In this case it just looks consequent and also pretty. So, it works great :)

Oookay, so this turned out to be a long post. Hope you found it useful! And feel free to ask if you have any questions :)

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#72 Post by Armee » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:48 am

Your works are very impressive, vinegar. It looks very lively and detailed in my opinion. I always wondered who is the wonderful artist stands behind Cinders's art and now I know. The art always look so dazzling

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#73 Post by ktalkimist » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:20 am

I thought Tom was your boyfriend haha. Thanks for the input! Love your stuff!

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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#74 Post by TeeGee » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:15 pm

Haha, this is what I get for asking vin to drop by and share a gif or two from her process. :lol: Awesome stuff, thanks!

ktalkimist wrote:I thought Tom was your boyfriend haha. Thanks for the input! Love your stuff!
Pff, we're used to that :roll:. Somehow, people assume a dude and a girl can't be just good friends and partners in crime. To make things more confusing, my actual girlfriend is a part of MoaCube too, and works with me on Bonfire.
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Re: Solstice - a mystery from the makers of Cinders [commerc

#75 Post by trooper6 » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:53 pm

Vinegar!

Thank you for sharing your work and you process. It is really just gorgeous. Also, I really appreciate there being a wider variety of art styles in VNs.
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