To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) 5 DAYS LEFT! [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#16 Post by ypressgames » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 am

Hi everyone! Sorry I can't pop in more often. I'm going crazy promoting the Kickstarter. We made $10,000 in Five Days! I can't believe it! I'm so grateful! Look!

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70 ... ing-sim-vi
I don't think many guys in Japan are circumcised. This doesn't affect the incubi, since their culture is something different, but Kenta really should be sporting a foreskin... I guess it's basically artistic license, though, and you could claim that he's one of the small percentage of circumcised Japanese guys.
It's funny. I was just covering this at 4chan. I agree with you. I really wanted to change that, but I knew my artists would have protested. They were working without pay for months and taking this huge risk with me. I held back on asking for edits on only the most extreme things. But you're right, and it does bug me. If enough backers comment on this I will be able to convince my artists to change the art. As of right I'm hearing as many people say they like them cut as those saying they like them uncut. (They're actually arguing about it on 4chan).
Secondly, and more importantly, there seems to be a weird dissonance between how the incubi talk about bonding (that it's a super special thing in their culture), and what they actually do (use sex-magic to get with a guy they literally just met...)
Good point! I will work on the script to try and make it clear that Kenta was interested in bonding with them from what Raiden told him, and as soon as he figured out how they bonded he went for it. I tried to downplay the incubi's powers, since he wasn't mind controlled--just horny.

As far as the incubi saying they have to stay bonded, I'll have to fix that also, because it's mainly a plot device to help the shenanigans that happen later on. :p


Hello again Magiriano!

I will say that the good endings are the easiest endings to achieve in TTAI, however a 'perfect' good ending, where everyone has things work out perfectly and Kenta gets a permanent job is a little harder to achieve. There is replay value in just trying to get the perfect good ending. A cheat map is one of the perks on the Kickstarter. :p
Maybe I'm wrong gay (and wrong bottom), but I'm not attracted by a pronounced musculature. Very big and strong men - this is not something that could excite me. Muscular bodies are felt as rigid and dangerous for me. Demons look attractive, but they are like actors from adult movies.
Big-bodied men is a main component of the bara genre. We made this game for gay men, as well as yaoi fans.
In this regard, I have a cultural question. Is there a connection between the demons in your game and the demons described in the religious texts? Or are your demons coming from an alternate reality and being only similar to the Christian incubus, but not a copy?
The answer to this is in the demo, so I won't spoil it here. I love it that you've read Stallion! I'm the publisher of the English version. It's nice to think Yaoi Press is still somewhat relevant.
P.S. ypressgames, how about the harem ending and gangbang?


You're the 3rd one to ask for this!! A harem route is going to be a stretch goal. :D

Thank you Knight of Hearts! I'm so glad you liked it!! :D I think it's solid gold too!!! The trailer is great because I didn't do it. :p My awesome artists are great at making movies. This really--REALLY helped us!!!
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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#17 Post by ParrotWatcher » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:04 am

ypressgames wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 am
(They're actually arguing about it on 4chan).
I kinda want to get popcorn... :lol: As I said, you could probably just chalk it up to artistic license, but it certainly took me out of the story.
ypressgames wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 am
Good point! I will work on the script to try and make it clear that Kenta was interested in bonding with them from what Raiden told him, and as soon as he figured out how they bonded he went for it. I tried to downplay the incubi's powers, since he wasn't mind controlled--just horny.
On that note: would it be possible for Kenta to be less straight? Does he have to think about how not-gay he is? I get that this is a staple trope of yaoi, but it's one that's always annoyed me. I'll grant that it could be just him coming to terms with his bi- (or homo-) sexuality (especially since he'd've grown up in the pretty conservative and heteronormative Japan), but as written it does feel more like the former than the latter.

But, yeah, my main problem was the hypocrisy and moral blackmail from the incubi. :P
ypressgames wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 am
Big-bodied men is a main component of the bara genre. We made this game for gay men, as well as yaoi fans.
Well, as a gay man, I certainly find "slender-but-muscular" far more appealing than "wall of muscle"... :P (Bara possibly isn't the genre for me... :lol:)

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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#18 Post by MilanaWalters » Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:27 am

ParrotWatcher wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:04 am

On that note: would it be possible for Kenta to be less straight? Does he have to think about how not-gay he is? I get that this is a staple trope of yaoi, but it's one that's always annoyed me. I'll grant that it could be just him coming to terms with his bi- (or homo-) sexuality (especially since he'd've grown up in the pretty conservative and heteronormative Japan), but as written it does feel more like the former than the latter.

But, yeah, my main problem was the hypocrisy and moral blackmail from the incubi. :P
what?? well, thats disappointing. im tired of those overused yaoi tropes :(

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#19 Post by ypressgames » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:39 pm

um...what happened to the reply I posted yesterday? ;_;

I will fix the game so it's clear there's no non-conny-ness. And a Gay Harem route will be a stretch goal! Thanks for the kudos Knight of Hearts! I love the trailer too...my artists made it. Such talent!
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#20 Post by Magiriano » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:07 pm

ypressgames wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:39 pm
um...what happened to the reply I posted yesterday? ;_;
Your detailed reply is slightly higher, at the very top of the page, number 16. You seem to have overworked a bit.
MilanaWalters wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 10:27 am
ParrotWatcher wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:04 am

On that note: would it be possible for Kenta to be less straight? Does he have to think about how not-gay he is? I get that this is a staple trope of yaoi, but it's one that's always annoyed me. I'll grant that it could be just him coming to terms with his bi- (or homo-) sexuality (especially since he'd've grown up in the pretty conservative and heteronormative Japan), but as written it does feel more like the former than the latter.
what?? well, thats disappointing. im tired of those overused yaoi tropes :(
Indeed.

I think the writer does not need to consider stereotypes. Kenta could live in any environment. Perhaps he was surrounded by homophobes, perhaps not, perhaps he has some deep internal trauma and a dark past, perhaps not. Maybe his aunt is a Jew and wished to circumcise his nephew. We learn about this in the game, but if we refer to the typical traditions of a certain society every time, we can get an uninteresting story.

Think about it. We have a portal to another dimension and real demons, which can and should be touched! Why limit oneself to stereotypes about circumcision or conservatism? The consistency and completeness of story is more important than the common details of a particular society.

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#21 Post by exizel » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:50 pm

I do agree about the yaoi trope,I'm not fan of the " I have never been attract to men but he...." especially since in this case his first attraction to men is with incubis who have the power to make people horny from a different room(He feel there powers before knowing what they looks like) and he has his first time with a man after he heard one of them calling out to him in the middle of the night to have sex with him to forge a bond. Honestly how much of his attraction to men(and incubus) is from him actually being gay/bi and how is from the incubis influence.

Because from the demo you could say that he is a straight man who is under the influence of the incubus'.(Before the sex scene Keita thinks :"Everything changed since I started to interact with his kind").

One thing I like about bara in general is that you can be sure to have a MC who is gay from the start who doens't follow the classic yaoi trope.

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#22 Post by ParrotWatcher » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 am

Magiriano wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:07 pm
I think the writer does not need to consider stereotypes. Kenta could live in any environment. Perhaps he was surrounded by homophobes, perhaps not, perhaps he has some deep internal trauma and a dark past, perhaps not. Maybe his aunt is a Jew and wished to circumcise his nephew. We learn about this in the game, but if we refer to the typical traditions of a certain society every time, we can get an uninteresting story.

Think about it. We have a portal to another dimension and real demons, which can and should be touched! Why limit oneself to stereotypes about circumcision or conservatism? The consistency and completeness of story is more important than the common details of a particular society.
I agree that there's not really a problem with the circumcision (sorry, 4chan :P); it was just something I noticed, and could certainly be called artistic license.

However, the stereotypes can be very bad. For example, the "straight until you" stereotype leads to suggestions that homosexuality can be transferred or "caught" (like a disease), which also suggests that it can be "cured". It also feels like it's often used to let semes be "real" men (i.e. straight) who just happen to fall for another guy, rather than an (implicitly lesser) gay guy. And the fact that the incubi are using literal sex magic really doesn't help in this case...

Obviously I'm not saying that that's what ypressgames is implying, but it's certainly the way I feel about these stereotypes.

@ypressgames: Sorry if I'm coming across as too negative; I feel that the story's got an interesting setup, and the art is certainly very good (and sexy). I'm certainly interested in seeing where it goes next. :) Good luck with the game (and Kickstarter)!

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#23 Post by Magiriano » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:59 am

ParrotWatcher wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 am
However, the stereotypes can be very bad. For example, the "straight until you" stereotype leads to suggestions that homosexuality can be transferred or "caught" (like a disease), which also suggests that it can be "cured". It also feels like it's often used to let semes be "real" men (i.e. straight) who just happen to fall for another guy, rather than an (implicitly lesser) gay guy. And the fact that the incubi are using literal sex magic really doesn't help in this case...
Totally agree. Especially with the highlighted words. I could not have said it better. In fact, this is homophobia. Of course, in a different way.

Until I was seventeen, I did not know what the word "gay" meant and that somewhere there were gay people. I just knew that I like guys, and I did not ask myself silly questions, did not rush, and did not think that something was wrong with me. Yes, there were girls around, and yes, I knew that boys and girls meet, they have love. I just did not know where and how to look for the same guy as I ... and still do not know, actually. This is the problem of small cities in conservative countries, if you understand what I mean. But even in this environment, I did not behave like the characters of yaoi.

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#24 Post by ypressgames » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:05 pm

We've been introducing our team in Updates. The update for Warky is really funny:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70 ... vi/updates
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#25 Post by ypressgames » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:35 pm

On that note: would it be possible for Kenta to be less straight? Does he have to think about how not-gay he is?
Yeah, I am going to rewrite that part of the demo. Lots of people were annoyed by this.
Your detailed reply is slightly higher, at the very top of the page, number 16. You seem to have overworked a bit.
Ah ha ha ha ha! Yeah, seriously. I didn't realize there was a page 2 to the replies. :p
I think the writer does not need to consider stereotypes. Kenta could live in any environment. Perhaps he was surrounded by homophobes, perhaps not, perhaps he has some deep internal trauma and a dark past, perhaps not. Maybe his aunt is a Jew and wished to circumcise his nephew. We learn about this in the game, but if we refer to the typical traditions of a certain society every time, we can get an uninteresting story.
Only so much could be delved into the demo. When people learn about Kenta's past it's going to shock them. There's a reason he has to be a temp instead of having a good job after he finished University. Please don't underestimate the characters. We only got a little snippet in the demo, but they are intricate with reasons for all their motivations.
However, the stereotypes can be very bad. For example, the "straight until you" stereotype leads to suggestions that homosexuality can be transferred or "caught" (like a disease), which also suggests that it can be "cured". It also feels like it's often used to let semes be "real" men (i.e. straight) who just happen to fall for another guy, rather than an (implicitly lesser) gay guy. And the fact that the incubi are using literal sex magic really doesn't help in this case...
I'm a lesbian. Not bi. Not straight. I'm not attracted to men. But I have had "straight" girlfriends. My ex is a woman who was straight, only dated men, but we had a friendship that turned into a romantic relationship. Because she was immune to the toxic masculinity she realized she was capable of falling in love with a woman. It was a legitimate and real relationship with all the intimacy you would expect. That is my personal experience. Hetero men and women could fall in love with the same sex under certain circumstances. Sometimes the person they're meant to be with is in the body of their same sex. Yes, the 'Gay For You' is a trope, but if we had less toxic masculinity in society hetero men could be open to love with the right person even if they're not gay and that person is the same sex. Is the reverse true? I don't know. Because of the gay conversion therapy bullshit gay people are disgusted by that shit that's usually forced on them. It adds an extra stigma that love might not be able to overcome. I know it would really be hard for me to be with a man even if he was my 'perfect mate' because of the toxicness I've dealt with by people trying to force me to be hetero. But like I said, I've had hetero girlfriends. That's real.
@ypressgames: Sorry if I'm coming across as too negative; I feel that the story's got an interesting setup, and the art is certainly very good (and sexy). I'm certainly interested in seeing where it goes next. :) Good luck with the game (and Kickstarter)!
Don't worry about it! The demo is a beta in a way, because all the dialogue can be changed. I want honest feedback. I've already decided to keep Kenta's orientation ambiguous. And will be rewriting it to make it less non-conny. Plus I will make it clear that the incubi give Kenta a choice about whether to bond but are honest about how important it is to them, even given the less than ideal circumstances. They may try to make Kenta understand that their souls are aligned and in that way they're perfect for each other and he doesn't have to worry about the relationship not working out as much. These are all AWESOME changes to make, that will help the game be better. This is the feedback I want!
I could not have said it better. In fact, this is homophobia.
I will fix this. I didn't realize it came off this way. I saw it as love is love no matter the gender. I never meant to imply 'gay can be caught'. I guess it's good to get feedback because it's mind-boggling to me that my work is being misinterpreted this way. Mortifying.

I'm a lesbian. The artists are gay. The voice acting producer is gay. We're part of the community, not exploiters. I also think homosexuality is a spectrum for many people. Not absolutes.
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#26 Post by Magiriano » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:18 pm

ypressgames wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:35 pm
I could not have said it better. In fact, this is homophobia.
I will fix this. I didn't realize it came off this way. I saw it as love is love no matter the gender. I never meant to imply 'gay can be caught'.
Yes, I understand that you mean exactly this idea, but it does not work in countries with a predominance of homophobic thoughts in society. It can be extremely harmful to idealize same-sex relationships. I understand that you would not idealize them, but it happens in a huge part of the yaoi manga.

My psychiatrist (the head of the hospital) said that same-sex relationships are abnormal, and she can easily cure me if I want it.
My acquaintance said that he does not consider gays abnormal, but at the same time claimed that he helped one gay friend to be cured.
I had only a few partners, and two of them had regular sex with guys, but they always considered and called themselves straight. Even being alone with me.
When I was tested for testosterone in the blood, which showed compliance with the norm, it was used as an argument that I'm a normal guy, and I can not like other guys.

I consider all these cases as examples of homophobia in a different ways.

In a homophobic country, even gays can be homophobic. If other users did not pay attention to this trope, then I would not talk about it either. It is not in my habits to impose on the author anything.

I'm more puzzled now that for successful fund-raising during the campaign, the project needs more advertising on all possible resources. Unfortunately, I do not know such sites...

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#27 Post by PMscenarios » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:52 am

ypressgames wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:35 pm

I'm a lesbian. Not bi. Not straight. I'm not attracted to men. But I have had "straight" girlfriends. My ex is a woman who was straight, only dated men, but we had a friendship that turned into a romantic relationship. Because she was immune to the toxic masculinity she realized she was capable of falling in love with a woman. It was a legitimate and real relationship with all the intimacy you would expect. That is my personal experience. Hetero men and women could fall in love with the same sex under certain circumstances. Sometimes the person they're meant to be with is in the body of their same sex. Yes, the 'Gay For You' is a trope, but if we had less toxic masculinity in society hetero men could be open to love with the right person even if they're not gay and that person is the same sex. Is the reverse true? I don't know. Because of the gay conversion therapy bullshit gay people are disgusted by that shit that's usually forced on them. It adds an extra stigma that love might not be able to overcome. I know it would really be hard for me to be with a man even if he was my 'perfect mate' because of the toxicness I've dealt with by people trying to force me to be hetero. But like I said, I've had hetero girlfriends. That's real.

[...]

I will fix this. I didn't realize it came off this way. I saw it as love is love no matter the gender. I never meant to imply 'gay can be caught'. I guess it's good to get feedback because it's mind-boggling to me that my work is being misinterpreted this way. Mortifying.

I'm a lesbian. The artists are gay. The voice acting producer is gay. We're part of the community, not exploiters. I also think homosexuality is a spectrum for many people. Not absolutes.
The way Kenta reads in the demo he's never considered an attraction to men before, but is immediately attracted to these guys. For most labels this'd indicate he's bi or pan, unless his previous attraction to women was him not understanding his own sexuality, which isn't what it seems like you're going for.
I don't think you meant it, but the way you wrote your replies could be read as almost dismissive of bi and pansexuality. (communicating on the internet is hard) There is definitely a full spectrum and fluid sexuality out there, and there's no reason to just flow between binary labels of "gay" or "straight".
If there's one thing yaoi really doesn't have enough of, it's stated bi representation, and it'd be nice to see a representation of the mentioned full spectrum of sexuality.

About the demo:
A lot of sentences stop after the comma, before continuing in the next text box. Is this a purposeful choice?

I'd be interested to see a bit more world building and flavour to the descriptions and conversations before we get to the boys. The set-up feels a bit rushed, with very concise descriptions.
I'm unsure why the professor is so obtuse about the demons and refuse to give Kenta proper information about what he'll be facing and how they influence others. I also find his personality difficult to figure out. It's fine that he'll be fleshed out as we get to know him, and there's reasons for why he holds stuff back - maybe he just wants to use Kenta to create that bond nobody else has been able to? But even tho we can't fully get a grip on him at the start of the game, it'd be nice to have a bit more meat to just exactly who this guy is who's made it his life's work to keep open a portal to other worlds.

Bc of how little information we get from the professor, and how dodgy he is about things, and Arata clearly being subjective bc he doesn't want to be seduced away from the professor, there's really no compelling reason to believe what these 2 unreliable narrators tell me, so I perceived the demons pretty differently from what I was told. They didn't really seem to have control over any "powers" and felt more like they were at the mercy of outside forces, just as Kenta was.
Especially on Saji's path it felt more like he bonded with Kenta bc he was desperate, not bc he wanted to, which ironically meant I was more concerned with consent for the demon then for Kenta, since Kenta was just all about wanting to touch and be close to Saji.
For the others it seems more like a means to an end - if we bond with this guy we can use him to get what we want, what we need.

About the sex:
Since this is targeting a bara market, I was surprised to see the sex being so "fantasy" as it is. Taking the time for preparing the partner isn't necessarily a boring, unsensual part of the act, it can be both bonding, and tempting, as ppl hold back their desires and wait until their partner is fully ready.
It's difficult to find the best way to describe sex scenes in vns. I understand the choice of letting all the narration happen in Kenta's head, but it does mean we only get to hear/see the sex scene from his perspective. I'd love to have more about how the other party reacts - if nothing else from observations of them.
"his bulging muscles strained as he restrained himself from pushing too hard into me, too quickly. I could see sweat-drops form on his forehead, while his eyes shined with a ferocious lust that took my breath away."
Kenta's contemplation of what's happening and what he's feeling can sometimes grind the action to a halt, keeping them in apparent frozen positions waiting for Kenta to get out of his head. It doesn't always convey the apparent overpowering lust he's supposed to be feeling.


I'm interested in the little world-building we do see, and the small hints to a bigger meta-plot and hidden agendas would be what'd make me come back to the game. The art for the sex scenes is really well done, kudos to your artist for that.
Last edited by PMscenarios on Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#28 Post by arosia » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:17 am

You guys are doing fantastic with your Kickstarter. Such a great job!

Your goal was definitely ambitious, and it's clear you're going to be very successful before it's all over. Keep up the amazing work!

I also love all the discussion you're working up as well. I don't have much to add, because I'm new to bara, but I am learning so much about the genre by reading through the discussion here. Thanks so much!

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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#29 Post by Magiriano » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:43 am

PMscenarios wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:52 am
If there's one thing yaoi really doesn't have enough of, it's bi representation, and it'd be nice to see a representation of the full spectrum of sexuality.
Perhaps I read exceptional works, but I often met bisexuals in yaoi. In fact, in yaoi manga & VNs, I rarely saw gay men who initially adopted their sexual orientation. Typically, this is either straight, who fall in love with gay or bi, or bisexual, who had many love relationships with girls, but who will be with the guy at the end.

In yaoi, gays are the worst represented. In hundreds of works shown bisexual or straight, but not gay. I could easily name a few dozen popular multi-volumes. Even in "Stallion" several characters were shown bisexual. The situation is gradually improving, but very slowly.

Look up the third season of anime "Genshiken". It is entirely devoted to the topic of yaoi in manga and to tropes like those about which the conversation was discussed above. It is such a common element of stories that I can understand those in whom it causes irritation.

The rest of the message I do not comment, since I did not play the demo version.

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Re: To Trust an Incubus (Kickstarter) [NSFW] [yaoi] [bara] [bxb][sci-fi] [adults only] [erotic] [dating sim]

#30 Post by PMscenarios » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:10 am

Magiriano wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:43 am
Perhaps I read exceptional works, but I often met bisexuals in yaoi. In fact, in yaoi manga & VNs, I rarely saw gay men who initially adopted their sexual orientation. Typically, this is either straight, who fall in love with gay or bi, or bisexual, who had many love relationships with girls, but who will be with the guy at the end.

In yaoi, gays are the worst represented. In hundreds of works shown bisexual or straight, but not gay. I could easily name a few dozen popular multi-volumes. Even in "Stallion" several characters were shown bisexual. The situation is gradually improving, but very slowly.
Ah. I fear trying to have a real discussion of this will very quickly turn this thread off-topic, but I'd argue that there's definitely a lot of characters that are described as having previous relationships with women, but they're very seldom actually identifying as bi. For representation there has to be active aknowledgement of a label to kinda qualify, and a lot of those men who are described as previously dating women, tend to either be called by a gay label, or adopt one themselves, if they don't keep insisting they're straight.
I have not read the manga referenced, but from my experience with the medium, it's resonably common for one of the characters in the couple to be gay, but extremely seldom for both characters to be. Depending on which authors one reads it's definitely possible to almost always have the point of view character be the questioning person/the pursued tho.

And I will not dispute at all that my perception is coloured by which works actually stay with me and I remember/reread.
If you're interested, some of the main authors I've read a lot are: Ogeretsu Tanaka, Scarlet Beriko, Kou Yoneda, Bohra Naono, Youka Nitta, Shigeyoshi Takagi, Ayane Ukyou, Hiro Madarame, Narise Konohara, Modoro Motoni, Waka Sagami, Tsuta Suzuki, Shiuko Kano, Sakira, Est Em
Look up the third season of anime "Genshiken". It is entirely devoted to the topic of yaoi in manga and to tropes like those about which the conversation was discussed above. It is such a common element of stories that I can understand those in whom it causes irritation.
Here we get into the "communicating on the internet is hard" part, I never meant to make it seem like I was arguing against the "gay for you" debate. I agree with the critique of it that other posters in this thread had mentioned, and also find it to be an annoying, way too frequent trope, especially within yaoi vns. It can be found in most of nitro+ chiral games (Blood of the Reprimanded Dog, Dramatical Murder, Lamento) and you could argue No Thank You does it with the guys he goes after.
I just think there doesn't need to be a black and white issue, or that representing bi/pansexuality would be the same as the "gay for you" problem.

I definitely want more, much more gay representation (I'm writing it myself after all), but bi-erasure is also a real, and problematic issue.
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