Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

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Ryue
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Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#1 Post by Ryue »

Hi
As promised (still in August), the first demo for the rpg engine of Red eyes in the darkness the tainted blood.
It is the combat engine demoed with pride against a couple of wolves.

As this demo is at the same time a public beta (closed beta went fine with the changes implemented) I'm asking all who test it to give me some feedback with their impressions (how they like it, what they like or dislike,.....) and also if anything seems amiss or wrong or if any errors occur.

So what does this beta/demo entail?
-Combat of one party member against a couple of wolves
-A full combat screen with menues to the left side, the enemy shown in the middle, an initiative bar on top and the party member bar on bottom.
-During each turn the initiative is determined randomly depending on your stats. This means the order of things can change each new turn. Also what is determined is how many actions one can do in that specific turn. Usually between 1 and 4 actions (with rare exceptions when the enemy gets the jump on one or you on them with 0 actions for the appropriate side).
-Each turn is split up into multiple phases. Each phase all beings who still have an open action can act once. Then the next phase begins until all beings can't act any more (represented by graying them out in the initiative list).

How does the combat itself work:
When a new turn starts the player can choose to fight, advance, regroup, flee.
* Fight: Starts a combat turn. You can try to punch an enemy or do nothing (punch only works at enemies 0' from you). The enemy either tries to bite you or advances.
* Advance: You advance towards the enemy but can't act for a full turn.
* Regroup: You try to put distance between you and the enemy but can't act for a full turn.
* Flee: You try to flee. This is easier the more distance is between you and the nearest enemy. At 0' for the nearest enemy it is quite hard to even try to get away. If you fail........they catch you and have a free turn to attack you or close the distance!

When you fight a combat turn starts. As mentioned before it is split into multiple phases where each character can do 1 action each. For the wolves it is trying to bite you or to advance towards you if they are not within bite range. You on the other hand have the options to either do nothing and wait out or to punch an enemy. When you try to punch an enemy you need to select which one (by directly clicking on the "monster" itself).
Then depending on stats and a random result you either hit or miss (or miss gravely) and you either do damage or not. Which is the same for the enemies. Normally wolves are quite strong but these ones are hungry thus greatly weakened and thus even 3-4 can be defeated despite you being bare handed there!


As note: When you try to punch an enemy you can leave and redecide by pressing the right mouse button instead of targeting a specific enemy.
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Last edited by Ryue on Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#2 Post by Ryue »

Update: Added the mac build also as I got asked there.

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#3 Post by Shadilyn »

Hey Wolf! Just played the mac build up to the map part. So far, the storyline seems really interesting. Curious to find out who the "princess" is :D

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#4 Post by Ryue »

Shadilyn wrote:Hey Wolf! Just played the mac build up to the map part. So far, the storyline seems really interesting. Curious to find out who the "princess" is :D
Hi tnx shadilyn glad that you liked it although........the map and the storyline is not in THIS demo ;) this demo only contains the combat system (which is not in the demo currently that you mentoined as that is the demo of the maingame :) )

With other words: The demo you played was the alpha build of the maingame. This here is the beta build of the rpg part (which I'm including in the maingames alpha when the beta here is over) :)

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#5 Post by TrickWithAKnife »

I'll make my feedback brief and petty. Feel free to ignore as much as you want.



It looks odd having the wolves all being level (from the top). The positions should be adjusted to reflect distance.

Having a wolf in the distance and the nearby tree somehow appear behind it looks weird. If the tree was on a different layer that overlapped the wolves or the wolves were moved so they were only on grass, it would look more natural.

The cards at the top are so tiny It's difficult to make them out. Perhaps have zoomed in images instead?

Similar with the character image at the bottom of the screen. At the default window size it's difficult to see well.

The effect of the wolves moving closer to the screen on their turns looks cool.

After clicking punch, it would be cool to have some kind of indicator to show we're meant to click on an opponent.

Not sure if it's just for testing purposes, but having (1) and (B) in the attack info looks weird and distracting. If you do need something, perhaps changing the name outline colour for each position in both the names above their heads and the combat info text?

"Hungry wolf" probably shouldn't be capitalized.

Would be cool if there was some kind of effect for attacks. Even just a quick 0.25 second flash or something. And sound, of course.

Not sure why it says turn one when I'm choosing my next action, when I'd already attacked once before.

"...took 1 points of damage...." shouldn't have an s if it's only 1 point.

"Fails to connect" sounds a little odd with a wolf trying to bite someone. Sounds more appropriate for a missed punch.

Regroup appears to mean to move away from opponents, which isn't obvious from the name. But as soon as Pride does that, the wolves just move closer and attack, making it pointless.

I click "Fight" then before I can choose which attack to use (which is actually only one attack at the moment), I got attacked by a wolf. It seems a strange time to be attacked.

"Do nothing" seems to be a strange attack option. It would make more sense in the previous menu.

Tenses don't always match. For example:
"Hungry wolk bites Pride." and "But Pride took no damage" on the same screen.

Sometimes I can just choose "Punch" or "Do nothing", and sometimes there is a different menu. It's not obvious when or why this happens.

The frames used when choosing which opponent to attack aren't always in the correct position.

"Player wins" seems like a strange thing to say. It suddenly reminds the player than they won by pushing buttons, not their character.
It would make more sense to go to a different screen if there is some kind of experience change, point system or item drops.
"We must teach them through the tools with which they are comfortable."
The #renpy IRC channel is a great place to chat with other devs. Due to the nature of IRC and timezone differences, people probably won't reply right away.

If you'd like to view or use any code from my VN PM me. All code is freely available without restriction, but also without warranty or (much) support.

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#6 Post by Ryue »

No ignoring there on my part as else the reason for a public demo/beta would not be fullfilled would it? ;)
Currently sick but as soon as I can I will look more closely into things .

The "player wins" is just as the demo ends there in all other situations there would be a quite different screen.
"Do nothing" seems to be a strange attack option. It would make more sense in the previous menu.
That is there in case the player has 2 or more characetr with 1 for example being able to do something while the others are out of range with their abilities. So they "do nothing". would it be better if it got renamed to "defend"?

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#7 Post by Ryue »

So feeling a bit better today
It looks odd having the wolves all being level (from the top). The positions should be adjusted to reflect distance.
What exactly do you mean there?
Having a wolf in the distance and the nearby tree somehow appear behind it looks weird. If the tree was on a different layer that overlapped the wolves or the wolves were moved so they were only on grass, it would look more natural.
That was mostly as the image I used there was "hand done" thus just a screenshot from another part of the program and thus had a wrong pov.
Got now a correct one from my artist:
Image
Better?
The cards at the top are so tiny It's difficult to make them out. Perhaps have zoomed in images instead?
Not sure if it's just for testing purposes, but having (1) and (B) in the attack info looks weird and distracting. If you do need something, perhaps changing the name outline colour for each position in both the names above their heads and the combat info text?
The cards on top are mostly there to show who is acting when and who can act and who not. I myself had found it interesting to see which enemy is still able to act
and is able to act when....with multiple similar ones I had the trouble "ok the name is the same......and too long anyway" and the pic is the same. Thus you couldn't make out who is acting when. I thought about using different colours each as background for the cards and then the same color for the name of the combatant in the monster view / party view but with 4-5 different ones each it is a bit problematic to find good looking colors that don't completely destroy any immersion :/.

So in essence my question here is: Would it be necessary from a players pov to see who exactly it is who is acting next (for similar mobs). And if so what about different colors used as backgrounds for the cards and also as colors for the names. With the names not shown the size issue will be less (on top) but still though more to that in the next quote
Similar with the character image at the bottom of the screen. At the default window size it's difficult to see well.
Here the main problem is: Space. I'm currently waiting for a background that offers a bit more there from the GUI artist but still I won't have much more space to put the pictures of the cards anywhere on screen (that is without removing one type of card or the monster view). So not sure what could be done there. Although I have to admit on my screen it looks quite normal with the std resolution of the game. So not sure why it is too small on yours. What is your resolution?
The effect of the wolves moving closer to the screen on their turns looks cool.
Tnx. But you have to thank interplay there....they gave me the idea with bards tales 2 :)
After clicking punch, it would be cool to have some kind of indicator to show we're meant to click on an opponent.
That will be in the next version of this demo as I wanted to put up a basic version first as its easier to change things without too many gimmicks in.
Would be cool if there was some kind of effect for attacks. Even just a quick 0.25 second flash or something. And sound, of course.
Same here as for the last quote. First all basic problems out of the way then the flashy things. Sounds is last on the list as I will have to talk to a composer for music and then also maybe for sound effects.
Not sure why it says turn one when I'm choosing my next action, when I'd already attacked once before.
I'm currently working on making it more clear in display. In essence per turn you have more than only 1 action (if your initiative was rolled high enough. It can even be that you have NO action at all in a specific turn if you went unlucky). BFor my testers it was clear as I had mentioned it to them but as it is confusing to ppl who are thrown into the cold water there.....it is on the changelist so that it becomes clearer.
"Hungry wolf" probably shouldn't be capitalized.
"...took 1 points of damage...." shouldn't have an s if it's only 1 point.
"Fails to connect" sounds a little odd with a wolf trying to bite someone. Sounds more appropriate for a missed punch.
Tenses don't always match. For example:
"Hungry wolk bites Pride." and "But Pride took no damage" on the same screen.
I think that makes it clear why I've hired a writer. The sentences in the combat screen are all made by me myself :D . Thus will have a native speaker correct them ^^'
Regroup appears to mean to move away from opponents, which isn't obvious from the name. But as soon as Pride does that, the wolves just move closer and attack, making it pointless.
Regroup is mostly a delaying tactic there. If you have an idea for a better name I'm all game :)
Yepp will have to think about something there what could be done there, so that it isn't wasted (probably a skill roll involved to see if the enemy looses his turn or can come closer).
I click "Fight" then before I can choose which attack to use (which is actually only one attack at the moment), I got attacked by a wolf. It seems a strange time to be attacked.
"Fight" is just do you stand and fight for the turn or regroup, advance, flee. Thus fight is only "lets start the fight". If something else fits that better I'm all game :)
The wolf went first as it rolled better in terms of initiative roll.
"Do nothing" seems to be a strange attack option. It would make more sense in the previous menu.
Would "Defend" be a better choice of words there? As it is mostly there for when the player chooses to fight and has archers but the melee guys can't act as the enemy didn't get near so far.
Sometimes I can just choose "Punch" or "Do nothing", and sometimes there is a different menu. It's not obvious when or why this happens.
That is part of the turn / action confusion mentioned above and should be clearer in the next build.
The frames used when choosing which opponent to attack aren't always in the correct position.
Interestingly we had overlooked that before and seemingly doesn't turn up every time. Looking more into this.

And again thanks for the comments. Hope I get more like those so that I can improve the engine and then put it into the game (and if the engine is ok enough possibly also put it open source).

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#8 Post by Ryue »

Update
Inititative bugfixes
* Removed Initiativelist
* Enemy or party member who can act is now displayed a bit bigger than the rest and the name displayed in red letters
* Added a small bar right of the name that shows how often one can still act within the current turn (the value shown here is not completely correct)
* Added info what action in the turn is now

Select enemy does not show correct frame
* I'm investigating here but not sure still why it occurs. As it seems if an enemy is farer than 0' the next enemy (to its right) has the selection box misaligned (the more enemies are left of the selection box who are farer than 0' then stronger the misalignement is).
Currently the main problem is that I don't see anything in the code that should produce this behaviour (more about this here: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =8&t=34102)

Choosing enemies
* There is now an indication that the player should choose an enemy

Getting hit and hitting
* Added a shake when a hit finds its target (even if it does 0 damage). If a partymember is hit, then a red haze is added to the shake.



A few more feedbacks are always welcome ;)

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#9 Post by Belgerum »

When you finish off an enemy, there is no space between the period, and the second sentence. ie. "Hungry wolf took 3 points of damage.Hungry wolf fell to the ground."

when you attack, I think making the entire screen shake is a bit excessive. perhaps just the enemy whom you are attacking? That's pretty easy to program from experience, and it would draw the attention of the player to their health bar a bit more when it changes. Same for when you are attacked. if you just made the player image shake, it would naturally draw their eyes to the health bar down there, and also not make the text unreadable for a moment.

I love the system you have for making enemies both closer in on you and further away, but right now, it means absoluely nothing in the scheme of things.
Firstly, since the action of advancing or regrouping (I'd prefer the term "retreat," actually) takes up an entire turn, it leaves you wide open to attacks. If you made it only take up one action, I think it would be a more useful tool in combat, as well as make it more viable as an option. As thing are now, standing and figthting is pretty much your only option if you actually want to win/not flee.

Secondly, the enemies will automatically close in on you, and never choose to move from there unless you regroup, so it's never really explored at all, and the playing field automatically levels itself, and never again changes much. Perhaps you could add another enemy that can only attack from a few spaces away, like a bowman or rifleman, which could have a relative position that lets him hide behind enemies. Or perhaps, make one REALLY slow enemy, so that you could have a geurilla-esque strategy of "attack, then move backwards out of his attack range before his turn so he never lands a hit." there's a lot of cool possibilities beyond that, should you program it right, but it's not really useful or interesting at all right now, since it only affects the first few turns.

Besides that, you have very few possible moves, so the game right now kind of owns up to luck, not strategy, and the only good way to win is to puch every turn and hope for the best. that is extremely generic in terms of RPG-style battles that have spells, defence options, and otherwise. Not only generic, but actually pretty boring. Making a player sit through a lot of combat in this style would be pretty distancing for some players who want to see a story, or have something interesting besides just hoping your attack hits and that you dodge the enemy's.

I'm not trying to say your engine doesn't have potential, or that it isn't a good start, but the positioning, which is the one big feature that looks interesting, is wasted on boring enemies and combat strategy, and there isn't much else to it. If you want to use this combat engine, it needs work to make it look better, have less bugs, and the usual suspect, but ALWAYS remember that the player's strategy, and their interest levels, are also very important. Try to keep things fun for them, or else you'd be better off making the combat part of the writing and story itself.

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Re: Red eyes in the darkness - Combat public beta (Demo)

#10 Post by Ryue »

@Belgerum also thanks to you for the feedback. Most of the things mentioned by you and trick have been changede / solved in the newest build I currently have.
The build will take a while though until I put it up as I found out thanks to feedbacks here and feedbacks on my pen and paper round (I use the same rules in a tabletop round on roll20) that the basic rolling mechanisms (rules) have huge problems and need to be redone from scratch (and extensively beta tested...which is what I'm currently doing).

Thus it will take a few weeks until I can do a new build.

A bit more infos can be found here: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 74#p366974


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@Belgerum the system for the closer and further away I took from bards tales 2 and 3 (I LOVED it there). The new build will feature a skill roll whenever regrouping or advancing which means that depending on your success your action fails OR the enemy is not able to act at all during the turn where YOU move. Additionally I added a ranged attack and will add a second melee attack there so that also these things can be tested.

Aside from that I don't plan to include much more "skills" (I call them talents/maneuvers) in the demo itself as the demo shall only show the basic combat features (although the "slow enemy" is "in" already in terms of rules/mechanics for that exist as those slow enemies have a lower initiative roll and it can even happen that they don't act at all during a given turn). An example here would be a typical zombie.

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