Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

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Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#1 Post by Notome Games »

Last edited by Notome Games on Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:39 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Pipe Dream demo available on itch.io and Steam

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#2 Post by Kitty »

Hey there ! Just played this demo and I must say I truly enjoyed it ! I found the pace to be nice and steady, and I really liked the day by day school life aspect of the game. I can't wait to play the full version when it comes out.

1. Which character was your favorite? Least favorite?
I think all the characters have their own good points and I found most of them likable. Nonetheless, the one I preferred was Cain, closely followed by John. I also really liked the main character and your depiction of an abusing relationship between her and her mother was well constructed.

2. Favorite and least favorite scene?
Anything that involved Cain, I must admit. He's charming and has a smile to die for, honestly, and what to say about the whole ''holding hands while caressing yours'' aside from SHIT I AM INTO IT? I also really liked going to the book club with John. I first thought he was a jock, but ended up being agreeably surprised and developped attachment towards his character. Aside from that, I thought Elliot hiding in the closet with the cat and getting discovered by the RA was very, very funny, I even laughed out loud and got weird looks from my own cats.

3. Any typos, bugs, etc? We'd love to know where they are so we can smash 'em.
I wasn't really paying close attention to typos, but found a few:
♡ At the festival when you decide to help Cain. Robin says: ''You looked really devestated earlier...'' instead of ''devastated''.
♡ When you go to Cain's workplace for the second time and Akio's being his rude self and asks for the manager: ''The restraunt is so silent...'' instead of ''restaurant''.
♡ Same scene, as Cain is bringing Akio to a seat: ''...starting to lose my confidance.'' instead of ''confidence''.
♡ When Cain leans on the table to take Robin's order and Akio calls back for him: ''He stands stoicly under Akio's complaints...'' instead of ''stoically''.
♡ When you go to the book club with John for the second time: ''...and an unusual fasincation with facial...'' instead of ''fascination''.
♡ When you talk with Cain at the petshop about how Ava and Robins became friends, it's missing a letter: ''What happned?'' instead of ''happened''.

As for bugs, when John asks Robin to come to the basketball game, his sprite goes on top of Ava's for half of the conversation.
After you go watch a movie with Cain, and he says you guys should do that again, the screen become gray with codes written on it. You can actually go pass it, but I thought I'd point it out.
Last edited by Kitty on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#3 Post by Notome Games »

Kitty wrote:Hey there ! Just played this demo and I must say I truly enjoyed it !
Hi, Kitty!
Thank you so much for taking time to test our game! We're thrilled to hear that you enjoyed it and we'll fix those typos/bugs ASAP! ♥
Pipe Dream demo available on itch.io and Steam

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#4 Post by Kitty »

♡ No problem ! I can't wait to play the full game and listen to music/sfx you'll add to it ! It's already a gem. Keep on the good work ! ♡
Last edited by Kitty on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#5 Post by LeetMusic »

Congrats! :)

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#6 Post by spiral »

I played the game twice, seeing everyone's good end except Akio, and the bad ends for Gary, Akio, and Cain.

First, the things I liked:

Overall it's fun. The writing is very good, it flows well and is funny and believable. I like the characters too, all the love interests are cute and likeable (or at least interesting) in a variety of ways. Robin is a really likeable protagonist, and I liked how her issues with personal space were a consistent thing.

The choices come at about the right frequency and work pretty well, though they weren't very exciting and didn't require much thought.

Your sprites are nice! Especially Robin, I LOVE her expressions.

The CG sketches all look fantastic, very expressive and well drawn.

Assuming the 3D backgrounds without credits are the bases you're working from, they look pretty good for what they are.

The UI is perfect. Easy to use, clear, and pretty.

The cellphone stuff looks great and works really well except for a lack of an obvious way to leave the interface and go back to dialogue. I kept forgetting about it, which actually worked well when I checked and it was just creepy Mum messages.

I was not expecting the abusive parent situation from the game's description, but it worked very well, the opening was engaging and the situation felt very clear.

As a non binary person I got very excited when I realised Rory isn't being gendered, a non binary kid side character would be AMAZING.

General Love interest reactions, from most to least liked (though I liked them all):

I liked John well enough but wasn't SUPER into him until the book club gone wrong. Now I'm really intrigued by him. Also his date was really cute.

Ava is kind of a generic Best Friend Female Love Interest In An Otherwise M/F Game, which is really unfortunate. I like that kind of LI well enough but it's boring always having that be the default for f/f. Other than that she was sweet and I liked how her backstory was slowly fleshed out. She doesn't feel as integrated as a love interest as the others, and I don't have as much of a sense of there being a story to untangle.

I straightforwardly loved Cain up until his date, he was charming and sad and quietly sardonic. But then the date was disturbingly similar to my experience as a 17 year old on a date with an older, more experienced, charming, sad guy who turned out to be an abusive manipulator who kept pushing my comfort zone physically while playing the confused woobie. So either you need to work on the scene to make it feel less off, or you are deliberately going into a fucked up direction a la Toma in Amnesia Memories. If it's the latter, well done with the subtle characterisation, and I'd be sad to lose Cain the genuinely decent guy but curious to see where the path goes.

I like Elliot when he's not arguing with Gary, and the bit leading up to him calling Robin a gentleman was A+. Grumpy guy who goes soppy over cats is a winning combo :D But the arguing with Gary is really annoying.

I usually like the energetically boyish type but Gary needs to be less prone to trampling boundaries and more genuinely kind to work for me. I liked him more on my second playthrough, when I went out of my way to be nice to him, but he still didn't really work for me.

Akio doesn't do much for me but I don't usually go for jerk love interests so am a poor judge. He seems like a very over the top and outdated stereotype though, even for the type. For example, your list of rich people foods is like something out of the 1930s, these days it's all organic quinoa with kale and fancy cheeses eg here's the menu for an expensive New York restaurant I found through a few minutes of googling. You can have him be a Rich Dude Type and have him act more like an actual rich dude instead of relying on cliche. I think him being used to modern "healthy" rich people food would work better with the "his parents wouldn't let him eat junk food" backstory, too.

Now...the things I didn't like. Don't be intimidated by the length, it's mostly a result of me overexplaining, I do genuinely like your game!

Something you probably can't change: I was disappointed when I realised there's only one female love interest, and that she seems to be in the typical "best friend who shows no interest in you or girls in general unless you do" genre. Nothing wrong with that kind of LI as part of a larger ensemble, and I do like Ava, but it's not very exciting as someone who prefers f/f when she's the only option. I realise it's probably too late to change this now, but that's still my reaction.

Typos etc:
"What happned?"

"treeclimbing" to tree-climbing or tree climbing

"better then nothing"

"disolve" at line 381 of game/theater_cain_medium.rpy caused a crash

Gary's sprite doesn't vanish at the end of his good end

Overlapping sprites at "Is that a tally or a percent?" when you respond positively to John's baseball invitation, "image ava_Sneutra not found" at "Alright guys, I gotta go" when you reject him.

Simple suggestions: I'd have the background change before the date/time comes up in dialogue, it feels weird for the game to be saying "evening" when it's clearly daytime etc.

Ava looks odd next to the guys, instead of looking like a short woman she just looks out of proportion.

It seems odd for Robin to be overcome by the puns the second time she visits the diner, when she's seen them before. Her reaction changes, too, from THIS IS STUPID to bafflement.

"Books" is kind of a generic interest for anyone over, like, 8. I'd emphasise Robin's interest in mysteries more, and John's interest in whatever his favourite genre is (I don't remember if it was stated)

Why is Ava straight? I can't see any good reason for her not to be explicitely interested in women, even if she mostly prefers dudes. It would make her path feel more integrated instead of almost like an easter egg. Also, unavoidable textual queerness is better than stuff you only see if you seek it out.

Broad suggestion one: This was going to be "Ground your writing more in reality" but having finished the game, while I do still think you could do that a little more, mostly I think you just need to frontload your backstory exposition more. The start of the story shifted suddenly from Robin escaping an abusive home to Generic College Experience and I was left wondering things like "how is she paying for anything? How does her life now compare to what it was before?" etc. Specifically, after Robin's mother said "you'll end up on the street" I wanted to be immediately persuaded that she wouldn't! Many of these details came up in later conversations, eg with Cain at the pet store, and it's good you didn't explain EVERYTHING at the start in a big boring block, but I think you should at least mention the scholarship early on.

As an another example: I am admitedly pedantic about this kind of thing but was really bugged by the description of Robin leaving a cat she's literally just picked up off the road in her room without kitty litter or even a dish of water.

Broad suggestion two: You should set your story in the US, not "Japamerica". I'm not a fan of generic settings at the best of times, I think generic settings and cultural backgrounds undercut the depth of your story and characters. But San Fran Tokyo etc type settings only work at all if there's a mix of significant aspects of both countries. This feels like a 99% American story with American characters and setting, and the 1% of jarring Japanese aspects are often treated as foreign and strange. For example: an American in the US using Japanese honorifics to refer to a stranger is silly and funny. But a Japanese person in Japan SHOULD be using honorifics, and having the only person to use honorifics be made fun of has the subtext that acting in a Japanese way in a country that is based on Japan is laughable. And if it's Japan, why do most people have names like John and Gary, eat cheeseburgers, live in dorms etc? One single character with a Japanese given name is fine in a story set in the US, but really unfortunate in one ostensibly set in Japan. Why would anyone be surprised John had a Japanese surname if they are all Japanese-ish? And so on.

There are a few specifically Japanese things I noticed but nothing you couldn't easily edit or lampshade as "this college/town has it's own traditions". As an Australian I may be missing some other differences between your setting an the real US, but I think it's worth changing or accepting those differences to avoid the unfortunate implications. Off the top of my head all you'd need to change are: the Japamerica references, call the cultural festival something else, change the goldfish capturing to a different game (or keep it and lampshade it), have a few less background Japanese surnames eg during the baseball game.

A couple of other things:
I realise the point is supposed to be that Akio is sheltered and rich but the first time he didn't recognise a common food it kind of felt like a result of him being Japanese which felt unfortunate. Maybe avoid having him made fun of for his ignorance. Just have him made fun of for his jerkishness :)

Speaking of unfortunate racial implications it felt very surreal when John acted like it was obvious the bookclub took one look at him and decided he wasn't bookish because he's a jock... when he is also black. I don't know if your story is set in an alternate universe where racism doesn't exist, but if so it hasn't been made clear.

Aaaaaaand that's it! I hope some of this is useful, and am looking forward to playing your game when it is done. You have me intrigued, with John's [anxiety mixed with subconscious magic powers??], Gary's [magic luck??], Elliot's [magic bad luck??] and Cain's [????].

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#7 Post by spiral »

ALSO. I was discussing the game with a friend with no Lemmasoft account who is really into dating sims, though their computer is kinda broken right now so they couldn't play yours. Anyway, they asked me to pass on this comment, I don't actually entirely agree (I think crappy representation is better than none) but here it is for a different opinion. I will say, though, that female Akio would be 1000% hotter to me personally ;) Female Gary, too. JUST SAYING.
NEVER only have one GxG path, especially if it's your sweet bff who's completely nonthreateningly straight-passing when you don't take her route.

never do this.

it is better to have none.

people who like GxG want a range of options just like people who like GxB do, and it's insulting that everyone gives them the same thing again and again. just as some otome fans like the gruff, responsible type, some yuri fans also like the gruff responsible type. just as some otome fans like redeemable jerks, some yuri fans also like redeemable jerks. just as some otome fans like jocks, nerds, rivals, yanderes, etc... only having the one sweet, straight-passing bff f/f path makes the developer feel better about being inclusive, but doesn't actually provide any wanted content to yuri fans - and the stereotype that f/f relationships are just like f/f friendships but with dating is actually really harmful and contributes to the culture of these relationships being taken less seriously.

if you actually care about being inclusive, genderswap one or two of the guys (preferably two, and preferably a very different two.) if you're not willing to actually provide wanted content, don't pretend you're being inclusive.

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Slice of Life, Psychologica

#8 Post by rabbzy »

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#9 Post by spiral »

Ohhhhh ok. I must admit while I was playing I was thinking it was weirdly well written for something so full of cliches, but toned down my criticism to be polite and encouraging. But it doesn't feel like an obvious parody, no. Just weirdly inconsistent in tone/quality.

Looking back on the game with that mindset...hmm. It's hard to say exactly what I think without knowing where the game is going. It sounds like you're doing something similar to Cyanide Tea's Ristorante Amore (which had a sudden shift to 'reality') or Taarradhin (where there is a slowly growing awareness of how messed up things are) And I uh...really hated both of those games, so probably won't enjoy yours, but here's my advice anyway.

First off: Remove the child abuse plotline, or make it so much less realistic that it's not going to feel like a real thing real people experience. That is too heavy and trauma laden a subject to play around with if you're not going to do so sincerely. The implication will easily be that that sort of thing doesn't happen in real life, and it does. If you are approaching it sincerely that's...better? But I'm not sure how it would balance with the parody aspect of the plot.

Second: Don't have your narrative hate on romance, or girls who care about romance. (I am not a woman, exactly, but I identify enough as one for the purposes of this topic) One of the things that infuruates me about most parodies of romances is how self righteous they are about stupid girls with unrealistic fantasies who are too dumb to recognise how terrible certain men are. My least favourite is bait and switch parodies which pretend to be a light hearted, enjoyable fantasy aimed at women but ultimately have the moral that enjoying silly, unrealistic romance means you are stupid and a tool of the Patriarchy. That is sexist as hell, and deeply insulting. Doing this in a story including f/f romance is a really low blow if you don't go on to have any sincere f/f romance, given how desperate f/f otome fans are for such paths.

The vast majority of women-ish people who enjoy tropey romances know they are unrealistic, and are just having fun. We know the love interests are kind of terrible, that the plots are silly and so forth, but it's fun escapism.

And yes, there are those of us who AREN'T able to always recognise douchey men irl, who get into abusive relationships with the cliched Charming Douchebag. But to in any way blame us for making that mistake, to say that it's a problem with women's fantasies not being grounded in reality instead of some men (and people of other genders) being abusive douchebags is...I can't express how angry that idea makes me as an abuse survivor. So don't do that.

I'm fine with stories like Hatoful Boyfriend or Northanger Abbey which laugh at the romance genre in a good natured way, and are enjoyable as straightforward examples of the genre as well as as parodies. But I get the feeling that's not what you're going for.

In general: please don't have your heroine be viciously punished (or vanished entirely!) by the narrative for following romance heroine tropes.

Third: Ironic racism/homophobia etc is still racism/homophobia, especially when it comes to lack of non-cliched (or any) representation. So your story should have a whole bunch of queer characters and POC in central roles by the end, as well as a nuanced and realistic depiction of Japanese culture, or it's perpetuating exactly the dynamics it is mocking. Also, while you're there, disabled and fat characters, the otome genre is apalling on that front so why not show that up as well.

Fourth: If all the people making parody otome poking at the holes in the genre put that effort into making good otome without those holes, the genre wouldn't be so easy to parody :P You're obviously a very talented team, I would love to see what you could make if you approached the genre sincerely.

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#10 Post by spiral »

And another comment from my friend, after I linked them your reply. I 100% agree with them, and they articulated the issues with the child abuse aspect better than me (their "my friend" is me :)):
i sure hope you're not saying that writing about child abuse is a "what not to do"!

i mean, i'm aware that child abuse is a touchy subject. it's often used as a cheap way to provide conflict or to make you feel sorry for a character, without actually thinking through the repercussions of the character being abused. my friend says that this game presented the player with child abuse at the very beginning, and then instead of dealing with the emotional and financial realities of being a young adult estranged from their abuser, the subject is dropped immediately. this is very typical of child abuse narratives written by people who are not themselves survivors of child abuse, and if that's supposed to be a mistake, then i agree wholeheartedly. i think that people who want to write about child abuse who are not themselves survivors should think about whether the child abuse is an important component of the story they want to tell, and then leave it out if it isn't or commit to following through with the unpleasant consequences if it is.

however, when child abuse is a stupid cliche you shouldn't write about, that doesn't just affect non-survivors wanting it to be really sad that their heroine had a bad childhood. it also affects survivors who want to say something meaningful about child abuse or work out their feelings about their experiences through fiction. i think there's a misconception that people who were actually abused write abuse in more subtle ways, and that isn't particularly true - people who've been there very often want to portray abuse as blatantly hellish so no one could think that it wasn't that bad. as annoying as it is when stories about child abuse are done badly, it's okay if people don't like the things i write based on my experiences, but it's less important to me that bad child abuse stories are mocked than that i can write those things without looking like an idiot (and without having to disclose in explicit detail What Mommy Did To Me in order to avoid looking like an idiot).

i think survivors have the right to make art about the things they've survived without having to tell the world they're survivors, i think survivors have the right to make BAD art about the things they've survived, too. if the writing is clunky, or if the characters and situations aren't believable, that's worth criticizing, but it doesn't mean that those topics themselves should be off-limits, especially to people who've lived it - and because you can't always tell who lived it and they shouldn't have to identify themselves, those topics shouldn't be off-limits to anyone. there are obviously valid criticisms to be made of how child abuse is generally written, but if those criticisms don't take survivors into account, then those criticisms are anti-survivor.

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#11 Post by rabbzy »

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#12 Post by spiral »

Ah, ok! Ok, that's a game setup I can respect, there is a huge difference between "romance narratives are bad" and "some romance narratives are bad". I've tried/am trying to explore similar ideas in my own (still unfinished >.>) otome games, including the "some love interests wave big abuse red flags, and if you romance them the game makes it increasingly clear that this is a bad idea" approach.

I mean I do think it's really complex, drawing a line between stories which actually do seem to condone attitudes which contribute to real life abuse, and those which portray a romance which would be abusive or otherwise bad in real life but don't condone it. I enjoy, and have written, plenty of the latter, and I think it's important not to confuse depiction with endorsement. But otome romances do often buy into lots of crappy sexist and unhealthy ideas uncritically, and that's worth poking at.

My approach is more characters like Damon from Magical Diary: the game and other characters make it increasingly clear that this guy is awful and his behaviour was not ok, and there's multiple chances to tell him to get lost or even have him suffer horribly. But if you want to continue dating the trashbag the game lets you and you get a sort of happy ending, albeit with a pretty clear THIS IS A BAD IDEA BUT SURE message. There can be a catharsis in going all the way down the rabbit hole.

But I think there's value in games like yours (as I understand it) too.

One thing I'd be wary of is catching abuse survivors by surprise, speaking for myself I would actually find it more triggering to play a path which portrayed abuse realistically than one which went to the over the top Bad End Boyfriend place with the cages and murder etc. Which doesn't mean you shouldn't write it, any portrayal of abuse will be triggering to some people, just I'd be careful with warnings, especially for a character like Cain who starts out seeming nice. Especially since as written there's often no way to have Robin firmly assert her boundaries, at most she can be stand-off-ish or awkward, which is a very unpleasant feeling of lack of agency as the red flags stack up.

I'm having trouble seeing how you'll smoothly combine the sillier parody aspects with a serious depiction of abuse, but it's not impossible. But unless you're going for a IT'S ALL FAKE reveal I'd still remove the Japamerica thing, and maybe still remove it even if you are. Also: *keeps waving unavoidably canon bi Ava flag*

I missed Gary=Gary Stu. I was thinking he looked like a Homestuck fan's OC, which is not dissimilar I guess lol

Anyway: I will check out your game when it comes out, though I might skip Cain's path unless there's a very satisfying
end where you reject him and maybe he falls off a cliff. It sounds like you're doing something interesting, and you are, as I said, very talented! (But I hope John and Ava have happy romance endings, or I will be sad. And cliffs for Akio and Cain, if possible)

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Re: Pipe Dream [GxB][GxG][Otome][Satire, Cautionary Tale]

#13 Post by rabbzy »

While Robin is a little on the meek side in the beginning, there will be a fair amount of character development as the game progresses-- whether her development is positive or negative depends on the player.

Thank you again for your honest feedback and suggestions! We hope that you will enjoy the end result!

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