Backgrounds - some questions for a newb

[OokamiKasumi]

You clearly well said what I want to say
I was trying to explain about is, but couldn't find good samples (also it's hard to explain with my English skill).

Oops! I didn't mean to get in your way.
-- Er... I'm really good at finding images in a hurry. I have a LOT of resources. However, I am glad we agree.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I don't understand what you're saying. Almost ALL photographs are taken at "eye level". The horizon line in any photograph will be identical to the eyeline of the photographer if they were looking through the lens.

Not True. Amateur photographs are taken at eye level. Professional photographs are Not. Professionals take their pictures Dead Across to keep everything in proportion -- especially if they are photographing models. Unless they are taking a Portrait shot of the head and shoulders, the camera (the horizon line) is at Chest level.

You completely misunderstood everything I said. Eye level refers to the PHOTOGRAPHER, NOT the model. The eye level only matches if the model and photographer are the exact same height and the photographer is standing straight and looking through the lens of the camera. I said all that in my last post. Emphasis added this post.

The horizon line in any photograph will be identical to the eyeline of the photographer if they were looking through the lens.

Yes, the horizon line falls on the chest of most models to minimize distortion, but the horizon line IS always the eye line of the PHOTOGRAPHER. Of the VIEWER. Of the LENS. When photographing models photographers often crouch or use a tripod, thus the mid-chest horizon line.

The eye line, or eye level is the consideration for your VIEWPOINT CHARACTER. If you place the horizon line on the middle of the chest of your sprites, you are saying the main character, the protagonist, only comes up to their shoulder. This is important to consider. This is why high and low angle shots invoke the emotions they do. Fashion photography employs a horizon line on the chest of the model because it best shows off clothing.

VN sprites often look wrong because they are not in perspective with the backgrounds. People draw the sprites facing straight forward with no distortion - i.e. like your model photographers where the horizon and eye line fall on the chest of the character. But the backgrounds used are not drawn the same way. The backgrounds are drawn using 1 or 2 point perspective, often with no consideration for how tall the viewpoint character is, or a photograph is used with real world perspective.

For instance, this:

This is where that doll actually belongs.


Because I prefer to have my characters take up more than just the Bottom half of my backgrounds, I search for backgrounds with their horizon lines at least Chest level on my dolls. Anything else just looks Wrong.

The photograph actually has distortion (i.e. curvilinear perspective, how our eyes really see). Notice how the edge of the table curves slightly, when we know in reality it is straight. Yet the doll is flat, head-on to the viewer.

The key to proper perspective, and keeping the viewpoint character the correct height in relation to other characters is creating backgrounds with the proper horizon line, so the sprites DO take up more than half the screen. Knowing how tall or how far off the ground your main character - the viewpoint character - is, is key to knowing where the place the horizon line and where the other characters should fall on that horizon line. YES, distortion WILL occur, because the farther a part of someone's body is off the horizon line, the more perspective distortion will occur.


The eye line of the photographer (always US the viewer - OUR imaginary eye line in the scene) is above this model. Our eyes are taller than she is, up higher. So the farther down we go - because the horizon line is high on this photo - the more tapered and in perspective her body becomes. We as the viewer are experiencing foreshortening.

You can't just draw backgrounds with different horizon lines (or use photos with different horizon lines) and the same straight ahead sprite dolls. To have proper perspective in a VN, every background must have the same perspective and horizon line and all character sprites must match that perspective and each of them must always line up at the same height in regards to the horizon line. Each sprite (if your characters are of different heights) will fall on a different spot on the horizon line, but they must be consistent in every scene if you wish to use the same sprites.

The only other alternative is to draw new sprites for use with each background.

Anyway, it is good this stuff is being thought about, we just had a misunderstanding on what "eye line" means.

[OokamiKasumi]

You completely misunderstood everything I said. Eye level refers to the PHOTOGRAPHER, NOT the model.

You're absolutely right I did misunderstand what you said because this following line didn't compute properly:

The horizon line in any photograph will be identical to the eyeline of the photographer if they were looking through the lens.

I'm not a photographer, so "eye-line" has a completely different meaning to me. You were referring to what the photographer sees through his camera. I was referring to the horizon line "I" see in the resulting image. Your frame of reference and mine were not the same, so misunderstanding, or rather, mis-translation was the result.

The eye line, or eye level is the consideration for your VIEWPOINT CHARACTER.

This line, above, is the biggest misunderstanding between us.

In my stories, the Viewer; the player, is Not the viewpoint character. My viewpoint character is an actual character that appears in the story just like all the others. My players are merely Observers, NOT participants. This is why I need models that are NOT looking directly at the player, and I need backgrounds and characters with a chest level horizon line.

VN sprites often look wrong because they are not in perspective with the backgrounds.

On this we both agree.
-- Matching perspective to the doll is something I try to do, but one can only make do with the resources one has -- or makes.

For instance, this:

The photograph actually has distortion (i.e. curvilinear perspective, how our eyes really see). Notice how the edge of the table curves slightly, when we know in reality it is straight. Yet the doll is flat, head-on to the viewer.

Exactly.
-- Using Photoshop's Lens Correction to straighten most of those lines, plus judicious trimming at the top can make a doll fit better. However, this doesn't actually change the horizon line or where the doll should be placed.

This is why I look for photos taken by professionals. They have less distortion because they are Not taken at the photographer's full standing height, but lower -- at chest level, the same perspective that the dolls are drawn.

Knowing how tall or how far off the ground your main character - the viewpoint character - is, is key to knowing where the place the horizon line and where the other characters should fall on that horizon line...

On this I will have to disagree because book illustrations, movies, and anime do NOT take the viewer's height into consideration. They lay the horizon line across the center of the image, at Chest-level on the actor/character (unless they are doing a head and shoulders close-up.) Any story that did would look Wrong to the viewer because they are Not used to seeing illustrations done in this manner -- no matter how realistic it actually is.

Despite being a representation of reality, this would look Unnatural as an illustration. I would never use this image in any VN I created.

You can't just draw backgrounds with different horizon lines (or use photos with different horizon lines) and the same straight ahead sprite dolls. To have proper perspective in a VN, every background must have the same perspective and horizon line...

On this, we definitely agree. However, one can only work with what is available to us.

The only other alternative is to draw new sprites for use with each background.

Or be a photographer, which I am not.

Anyway, it is good this stuff is being thought about, we just had a misunderstanding on what "eye line" means.

Honestly, I think we were addressing the same issue, just approaching it from different 'perspectives'. (Pun fully intended.)

[nyaatrap]

Using the real view in VN is unpractical. It's not just make hard to align sprites, also the sight becomes boring.
There's technique to fake player's eyes to solve this matter:
the eye level should be under collarbones, and the focal length should be higher than the real view of POV.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Knowing how tall or how far off the ground your main character - the viewpoint character - is, is key to knowing where the place the horizon line and where the other characters should fall on that horizon line...

On this I will have to disagree because book illustrations, movies, and anime do NOT take the viewer's height into consideration. They lay the horizon line across the center of the image, at Chest-level on the actor/character (unless they are doing a head and shoulders close-up.) Any story that did would look Wrong to the viewer because they are Not used to seeing illustrations done in this manner -- no matter how realistic it actually is.

Yes, movies and illustrations do take the viewer's height into consideration. Just not the way you are used to thinking about it. Height doesn't just mean the actual physical tallness of the viewer. It means where the viewer is in relation to the ground. Is the viewer up high, looking out a window or off a ledge? Are they down low on the ground, looking up? Are they crouched?

Cinematography is all about the science of what information is conveyed and what mood is created by where you place the "viewing window" in relation to the scene. Movies and illustrations place the audience in the scene. Height is a big consideration in this, even if there is no character whose eyes the viewer is supposed to be seeing through.

Dutch Angles or tilting the camera makes the viewer feel off-balance, like they are about to fall, it is disorienting and thus uncomfortable. This gives the viewer a disturbed feeling.


All different kinds of angles and shots are used to FORCE the viewer where to look. An image cannot exist independently of a viewer. By necessity the viewer of every image is IN the scene. We may be standing a comfortable distance away, we may be crouched on the floor with the hiding victim, we may be on the roof ledge looking down with the hero, but we are THERE. That is what establishing shots are for, to show us arriving, to show us where we ARE.

And all these techniques were used by painters and illustrators for hundreds and thousands of years before the movies got hold of them. The horizon line falls where ever it does in a scene because that is the VIEWPOINT the cinematographer or the artist wants the viewer to have. A low angle (and thus a low horizon line) may be used to make the viewer feel weak or alternatively to make the character in frame appear strong. They are literally ABOVE the viewer - higher, more powerful. The opposite is used for low angle shots to make the viewer feel strong and in charge, or to make the character in frame appear weak and helpless.



In all cases, the framing, the composition, the angle, is used to control the eye line of the audience. Thus, the "height" of the view point character (or the audience) is always considered.

I come from an art and illustration background, but (ironically?) most of my professional jobs have been in film and movies. The basics between the two are the same though. Usually the former helps immensely with the latter and vice versa.

Using the real view in VN is unpractical. It's not just make hard to align sprites, also the sight becomes boring.

Yes, using the same perspective and horizon line throughout an entire VN WOULD be boring. But it is the most cost effective. Ideally you would draw brand new sprites for every background individually, so you could have unique perspectives and horizon lines and have characters in the proper perspective - but most VN makers aren't up for that kind of work load.

[SusanTheCat]

When I was doing the backgrounds for CRS escape, I had to keep in mind that the player was an animal and their viewpoint was about 18 inches off the ground. I was lucky I didn't have to make any sprites. If they were human, all you would see is legs.

(Also keep in mind that all the backgrounds, for the game were done in one morning. You can see screen shots of me drawing them on YouTube http://youtu.be/K-t-OfdaeDk)

Yes, using the same perspective and horizon line throughout an entire VN WOULD be boring. But it is the most cost effective. Ideally you would draw brand new sprites for every background individually, so you could have unique perspectives and horizon lines and have characters in the proper perspective - but most VN makers aren't up for that kind of work load.

IMHO, I think that using the same viewpoint for conversations is fine. Then jazz up the visuals in the CGs.

Susan

[LateWhiteRabbit]

IMHO, I think that using the same viewpoint for conversations is fine. Then jazz up the visuals in the CGs.

Susan

That is usually the most efficient compromise available. And good on you for considering the size of the characters when doing backgrounds! Hopefully this thread will make creators aware of things to keep in mind when doing backgrounds, but I see you are already ahead of the game.

[OokamiKasumi]

...Cinematography is all about the science of what information is conveyed and what mood is created by where you place the "viewing window" in relation to the scene. Movies and illustrations place the audience in the scene. Height is a big consideration in this, even if there is no character whose eyes the viewer is supposed to be seeing through.

No argument there, however, I just want to match my backgrounds to my sprites! LOL!

... That is what establishing shots are for, to show us arriving, to show us where we ARE.

Now if only I could get my fiction writers to understand that THIS belongs in a story too. In other words, that this actually needs to be described at the beginning of each new scene. Sigh...

Using the real view in VN is unpractical. It's not just make hard to align sprites, also the sight becomes boring.

Yes, using the same perspective and horizon line throughout an entire VN WOULD be boring. But it is the most cost effective. Ideally you would draw brand new sprites for every background individually, so you could have unique perspectives and horizon lines and have characters in the proper perspective - but most VN makers aren't up for that kind of work load.

Plus the file size of a game with that many images would be monumental!

[luminarious]

Using the real view in VN is unpractical. It's not just make hard to align sprites, also the sight becomes boring.

Yes, using the same perspective and horizon line throughout an entire VN WOULD be boring. But it is the most cost effective. Ideally you would draw brand new sprites for every background individually, so you could have unique perspectives and horizon lines and have characters in the proper perspective - but most VN makers aren't up for that kind of work load.

Plus the file size of a game with that many images would be monumental!

The workload would be comparable to making an indie graphic novel. But I'm going to have to finish the script first..