Arms and Hands...the bane of my existence...

[Obscura]

Does anybody have some tips on how to do decent arms and hands? Specifically male arms--tone but neither too muscular nor too skinny. I've been practicing gesture drawing and proportions for the past few weeks, but arms still take me forever. Hands take me even longer than forever. They take me HOURS.

Here are some recent drawings I've done. If you've got some tips or critiques, I thank you immensely in advance.

This is one of the characters I made but am not using because he's too disproportionate:



I redid this guy's arms and hands about 10,000 times on Sunday. He took me about 4 hours, seriously. (And then I spent another 4 hours on the hair.) I kept using I don't think line drawings should take this long!

I think he looks better than above, but I'm sure he has some problems that I just can't see anymore because I've stare at him too long. :-/



Any tips on getting better at arms and hands appreciated. (I also have leg drawing problems, but thank goodness my game won't have that going on...yet.)