Art skill + pricing as well as critique...? ADVICE?

[kura-ou]

First of all, I'd like to thank everyone who offered me critique and insight in the last thread I had here.

I still have a few lingering questions, however...

And despite my tone, I am not saying this to be arrogant.

I know that my art is okay at this level, it's considerably far from perfect, but it doesn't flat-out suck or have weird styling and extremely awkward proportional problems (yes, I know I need to work on anatomy some more; any further critique on other aspects would be extremely helpful).

Before, one person was kind enough to point out the faults in my commission thread, but...only one person has been kind enough to commission me from here... Is my ToS still intimidating, are my prices outrageous (I've seen some artists charge a little more than me and we're of similar levels) or is it because most people just want free stuff?

Unfortunately, I can't do this type of work for free because I do put a lot of effort and time into my art, whether or not other people may like it. I've been doing IRL commissions since I was 15 and online commissions for about 3-4 years. I only give free artwork away when I feel like it. Is this so wrong?

I'm not looking for any praise when I post depressing things about my artwork. I'm just confused and a bit sad. I basically promote my commissions everywhere, but despite having completed over 50+ commissions in the past 6 years (which isn't too much, but it's better than nothing), people have started to commission me less when I charge reasonable prices for quality artwork.

When I did $1 sketches and spent hours on each one, people would commission me significantly more. I was a teen back then and had no idea how to price. Now that I'm preparing to finish up college and will most likely have to continue my education, charging rationally seems like a death wish (not that I live off my commissions, but I need some source of income per month to pay bills since I'm a full-time student and have applied for small time jobs, internships and volunteer work but none have gone through, unfortunately). I'm sure that there are others worse off than me. I'm not going to look for a fight with them--this is not a pity contest. People have different levels of hardship, and it's wrong to place people on a hierarchal scale when it comes to that.

Sources of pricing dilemma can be seen here, here, and here.

Basically, if I charge too little, I can't make enough to pay bills and I would end up lowering the market price (at an average) if I am successful. I also don't want to be so cheap that I burn out. And, most of all, I don't want to attract some bad commissioners like I did in the previous 2 years that basically gave me info and then disappeared when I gave them a quote or draft. I want to be as professional as possible and am willing to listen to people's suggestions.

I don't plan on ever charging too much, I just want to charge enough for my level of skill. If anyone would like to suggest prices for me to start off in this thread, separate from those of my regular commissions, that would be great. I'm new to pricing for visual novel artwork.

Please, if anyone has any further advice for me, I would greatly appreciate it.

Also, the 1st person who offers me genuinely good advice for pricing or improvement will receive one chibi sketch like this:

Sorry for the watermarks; they're my OCs, so I love them very much.

Sketch will be of slightly higher resolution and lines will be sharpened.


Thank you for taking the time to read this.

[Sapphi]

I'm not looking for any praise when I post depressing things about my artwork. I'm just confused and a bit sad. I basically promote my commissions everywhere, but despite having completed over 50+ commissions in the past 6 years (which isn't too much, but it's better than nothing), people have started to commission me less when I charge reasonable prices for quality artwork.

I don't know much about the pricing myself (Come see me when I'm living in a box on the streets of Chicago, lol!) but do you think it might just be that your style is outdated?

Please don't take that question the wrong way (since my preferred style is very outdated), but I feel like it might just be due to lack of commissioner interest than any one thing you are doing wrong. I mean, you've been doing this for 6 years, etc, you started having to charge higher prices, but at the same time the styles have been shifting, too. I would wager a guess that if you started drawing girls in the style of K-ON, for example, you would get more bites for commissions.

That's just my theory, though, so it could be totally off-base. I don't like to do commissions, myself.

[CheeryMoya]

Taking a look at your Recruitment thread, your opening post has a lot of text. Usually lack of information/terms is a problem for people looking for paid jobs here, but your post might be too long. Posting samples is good, but it doesn't hurt to link them (for me) when you have multiple to show off. Shortening the post might scare off less commissioners, as well as keeping it simple and including less backstory (bio isn't necessary if all I'm asking you to do is draw). In other words, cut the fat from your post. Tell me only what I need to know when commissioning you.

Also, consider the fact that this is a hobbyist forum, so not everyone can pay people. In my case, it's not that I'm poor; I just have no method to pay people over the web. Other people who do have money may not know who you are around here, and the way to fix that is to get more involved in the community. If you're popular here and your art is at least decent/spectacular (I shall cite the name of the great Deji), people will throw money at you whenever you're available. Build up your rep by posting around, opening a sketch request thread, etc. I know you say you're too busy to draw for free, but the reality is that people like free stuff. People will stop by a sketch thread, ask for whatever they'll ask for, and if they like you then next time they'll keep an eye out for what you do. Build a crowd for yourself here.

You also need to get connections around here. In the case of Untramen, I pointed two of my friends to her and she got to draw chibis for them.

What I think is that you're not known in the community enough. I find the trend is that new members who walk in asking for a paid job don't stick around too long or get hired because we don't know how your work ethic is. Yes, you cover that part by mentioning that you've been doing commissions for years and years, but there are people who'd rather see it firsthand.

Edit: Your prices are about the same, if not slightly higher, than the others around here. I'd lower headshots to $7-$10, waist-ups to $12, full body to $22. Just went to AX's Artist Alley, the prints I got were cheap ($5 for three small prints, $10+ or something for a poster. Take note that there was a discount for buying 2 or 3 posters). IDK, I'm frugal so I only buy cheap stuff or things I pretty much die for

[kura-ou]

I'm not looking for any praise when I post depressing things about my artwork. I'm just confused and a bit sad. I basically promote my commissions everywhere, but despite having completed over 50+ commissions in the past 6 years (which isn't too much, but it's better than nothing), people have started to commission me less when I charge reasonable prices for quality artwork.

I don't know much about the pricing myself (Come see me when I'm living in a box on the streets of Chicago, lol!) but do you think it might just be that your style is outdated?

Please don't take that question the wrong way (since my preferred style is very outdated), but I feel like it might just be due to lack of commissioner interest than any one thing you are doing wrong. I mean, you've been doing this for 6 years, etc, you started having to charge higher prices, but at the same time the styles have been shifting, too. I would wager a guess that if you started drawing girls in the style of K-ON, for example, you would get more bites for commissions.

That's just my theory, though, so it could be totally off-base. I don't like to do commissions, myself.

Well...my style isn't Naruto, Bleach or mainstream anime-inspired ^ ^; One of my friends already does the K-ON style, as well as a mix of her original style; she's so talented that I don't want to try to compete with her XD

I honestly don't like copying mainstream styles. I like mixing up my own style with any inspiration I get ^ ^;;; My oldest style was so crappy and mainstream that I didn't like it...but thank you for the advice, Sapphi, I will keep this in mind

[ThisIsNoName]

Ditto for CheeryMoya and Sapphi. And just to add my two cents in:

I think that part of the reason why you may not be getting commissions is that this is generally a project oriented forum, instead of an artwork oriented forum. What I mean by that is that most people on here are either working on a project, just got done working on a project, or are looking at other people's projects.

Essentially, what that means for you is that, more often than not, you'll have to wait on other people's timing. There is generally a pretty small window between when people have references, and when they are on the path for a finished sprite, whether they are choosing to do it for themselves, or hiring someone else.

I think, honestly, you'll have to just hold out until you get your name out in at least on game. The good news is that many people on the forum focus on the art in a game, so even if you only do one sprite or CG, people will notice.

One thing that will help in the long run is to really develop your own style. One of my favorite examples is Sean "Cheeks" Galloway. He originally wanted to get into comics, but everyone he went to said that he didn't have the artistic ability. Then, he sent in a sample for the Hellboy Animated Series. Even though he didn't have the artistic ability that they were originally working for, they made room because they liked his style so much. Now, you can see his stuff everywhere (The Spectacular Spider-man, G.I. Joe: Renegade, even a LeapFrog game.)

Sorry if that was a bit off topic, but it shows you how far having a unique, recognizable style can get you.

[Sapphi]

Well...my style isn't Naruto, Bleach or mainstream anime-inspired ^ ^; One of my friends already does the K-ON style, as well as a mix of her original style; she's so talented that I don't want to try to compete with her XD

I honestly don't like copying mainstream styles. I like mixing up my own style with any inspiration I get ^ ^;;; My oldest style was so crappy and mainstream that I didn't like it...but thank you for the advice, Sapphi, I will keep this in mind

Well... the thing is, what you like to do won't always pay the bills. Leiji Matsumoto - yes, THAT Leiji Matsumoto - was a shojo mangaka in his early career despite his decidedly non-shojo preferences. Now, of course, people pay him money to do whatever the heck he likes, but he had to prove himself first.

Another thing to think about is that your commission style doesn't necessarily have to be your personal style. You can do what sells to make money, then you can do what you like in your spare time. It's unfortunate, but if it's your only way to make income, you can't afford to be picky, can you?

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Edit: Your prices are about the same, if not slightly higher, than the others around here. I'd lower headshots to $7-$10, waist-ups to $12, full body to $22. Just went to AX's Artist Alley, the prints I got were cheap ($5 for three small prints, $10+ or something for a poster. Take note that there was a discount for buying 2 or 3 posters). IDK, I'm frugal so I only buy cheap stuff or things I pretty much die for

I disagree. Those prices you list are too cheap. The difference between what he is doing and the posters and prints you talk about buying is that he can only get paid ONCE for his art. That artist that made the print or poster? They keep getting paid for the artwork over and over again each time someone buys a poster, so they can afford to make less per sell because they will make the value back in volume.

I think that part of the reason why you may not be getting commissions is that this is generally a project oriented forum, instead of an artwork oriented forum. What I mean by that is that most people on here are either working on a project, just got done working on a project, or are looking at other people's projects.

Essentially, what that means for you is that, more often than not, you'll have to wait on other people's timing.

I agree with this. You have to become well-known in the community so that when people think of potential artists for their next project they think of you. Also, most creators on the forum can't afford reasonable art prices or are cheap, and the ones that do pay good rates only need an artist once every few months - and they often have them booked up to a year in advance. So it is a waiting game for you.

As to the volume of your commissions, the main thing about building a freelance business based on them is repeat customers. You gradually build a client list that keeps coming back to you for work. My instructors who have lived off freelance told me it took 5-6 years to build a freelance art business up to a level it could support living off it. That's once you are ALREADY at a professional level and doing everything right.

The only real solution to your troubles is patience.

Well...my style isn't Naruto, Bleach or mainstream anime-inspired ^ ^; One of my friends already does the K-ON style, as well as a mix of her original style; she's so talented that I don't want to try to compete with her XD

I honestly don't like copying mainstream styles. I like mixing up my own style with any inspiration I get ^ ^;;; My oldest style was so crappy and mainstream that I didn't like it...but thank you for the advice, Sapphi, I will keep this in mind

Well... the thing is, what you like to do won't always pay the bills. Leiji Matsumoto - yes, THAT Leiji Matsumoto - was a shojo mangaka in his early career despite his decidedly non-shojo preferences. Now, of course, people pay him money to do whatever the heck he likes, but he had to prove himself first.

Another thing to think about is that your commission style doesn't necessarily have to be your personal style. You can do what sells to make money, then you can do what you like in your spare time. It's unfortunate, but if it's your only way to make income, you can't afford to be picky, can you?

Emphasis mine. Mainstream art styles is how you pay the bills. Personal styles are how you stroke your ego. Mainstream art is what goes on bookcovers, soup cans, posters, and flyers.

You need to decide - are you an artist, or are you a craftsman? An artist creates, a craftsman produces. Craftsmen make the art that adorns much of the world around us. A good craftsman can emulate any style they are given - they make art to specification. On demand. They are employed in teams to create animated movies and shows that are consistent and in one style. They make all those Disney themed books and party favors that look like the original art.

I personally don't have much of a personal style. (Ha!) I'm definitely in the craftsman category. I can copy and emulate any art style I'm given. I'm what is sometimes referred to as a "chameleon artist". It pays the bills. Glen Keane no longer works for Disney, but they need someone to draw Ariel and Rapunzel like he did. Neil Adams too expensive to do your comic cover? You get someone to draw it that can emulate him. A comic artist drew half an issue and they need it finished? They call you and you deliver by copying the hell out of the artist's style.

Craftsman artists make money and live off it. You work long enough putting in your dues doing multiple styles (which will improve ALL your art by the way - how else do you stretch and exercise your artistic muscles? Drawing in only one personal style seems artistically lazy to me), you'll eventually get enough money or recognition to do your own thing. But I find it extremely . . . short sighted . . . to be picky about sticking to a personal style if you are trying to make a living off your art.

[nyaatrap]

Why not broaden your style instead of just changing your style? Professionals should have flexibility to match coworker's art style. If I hire someone, that person must be versatile, flexible and no strong characteristic artist.

(which will improve ALL your art by the way - how else do you stretch and exercise your artistic muscles? Drawing in only one personal style seems artistically lazy to me)

I totality agree.

[edit] One more thing. You looks too much love on what you've done for me. I prefer to work with an artist who is less interested in what he's done and keep shutting his mouth in the future.

[Arcanum]

Can't say I agree with all the opinions posted here. Although you have your personal style, it is very anime-ish, and… well, to me, at least, it looks very mainstream (take for example Vinegaria's from Cinders' art style as something that's not anime and not mainstream - at least in the VN media). Thing is, a personal style is actually good, as it will help tear you apart from the mass. But simple there are games and games, and depending on the style, people will just look for something different from what you have to offer.

Go check Winter Wolves' page, you can tell which type of game it is before you click on it. The dating sims like Love&Order and Remember Me have a particular art style with a very soft look to it, Loren, the RPG, has some very mature and strong art. Everything is anime, just different sorts of it And even them, someone with a more comic-book look can still be successful (Lucky Rabbit Reflex is such a mix of styles, but it's very particular).

Not that flexibility isn't good, but having an art style that's recognizable is interesting too. It can make one immediately say "Oh, I know the artist to this game" and try it and buy it just because of the art.

Now, when it comes to your particular case (sorry… I got sidetracked), I think you didn't show as well your art "applied" to the VN media. There are no sprites with multiple expressions, from example, which would be a must for you to get hired as a sprite artist. No art in CG format with some actual background instead of random effects. People in this forum have a purpose, they need art with a purpose as well. People in DeviantArt is looking to buy art… to stare at, I suppose, and to see their characters drawn in the hand of an artist they like. Here people are trying to make games.

[Zylinder]

I don't see anything wrong with your art style and skills itself, since I find it already looks like mainstream anime. The chibis, especially reminds me of Glory Destiny's art.

As for actual advice, I think the only thing to be done is to get your work out there. Put up some art in the forum art thread or in other forums you frequent. Couple that with a signature (A simple graphic with COMMISSIONS AVAILABLE and a chibi, say ) telling people you're up for commissions and you could get noticed more. Graphic signatures tend to catch more eyes than text.

Your recruitment thread will be buried in the second/third pages within a few days of it being made, so your best bet at advertising isn't the thread itself, but through comments and other posts. Also, you can look at MMO forums for a quick buck - especially anime style MMOs. Some players will be looking for art of their characters, and your style's anime, so they'll be doubly likely to like your work. It doesn't even matter if you're not playing the game, just put up a tag for real money only, and request for screenshots. The more forums you advertise in, the more people who see it.

Lastly, neatness is godliness. Your recruitment thread is still messy. As unfortunate as it is, I'll probably look right past your thread because I'm not sure what I should be looking at. People will give you less than a minute of their time, you'll need to make sure they stay. Keep information to the bare minimum with more via contact, OR put up multiple posts with different information, and then linking to them on your main post.

So you can have something like this :

Contents :

Price Listings
Sprite Commisions
CG Commisions
Samples
Terms of Service

With links to the posts with relevant information instead. Maybe throw in a fancy banner [Kura-ou's Art Commission Thread]] on the first post to keep them hooked. This is all opinion, of course, but that's really all I can think of that might help.

[CheeryMoya]

Edit: Your prices are about the same, if not slightly higher, than the others around here. I'd lower headshots to $7-$10, waist-ups to $12, full body to $22. Just went to AX's Artist Alley, the prints I got were cheap ($5 for three small prints, $10+ or something for a poster. Take note that there was a discount for buying 2 or 3 posters). IDK, I'm frugal so I only buy cheap stuff or things I pretty much die for

I disagree. Those prices you list are too cheap. The difference between what he is doing and the posters and prints you talk about buying is that he can only get paid ONCE for his art. That artist that made the print or poster? They keep getting paid for the artwork over and over again each time someone buys a poster, so they can afford to make less per sell because they will make the value back in volume.

That's true >_> Welp, it's not like I can actually pay anyone here any time soon, so off I go... /disappears

[kura-ou]

Taking a look at your Recruitment thread, your opening post has a lot of text. Usually lack of information/terms is a problem for people looking for paid jobs here, but your post might be too long. Posting samples is good, but it doesn't hurt to link them (for me) when you have multiple to show off. Shortening the post might scare off less commissioners, as well as keeping it simple and including less backstory (bio isn't necessary if all I'm asking you to do is draw). In other words, cut the fat from your post. Tell me only what I need to know when commissioning you.

Also, consider the fact that this is a hobbyist forum, so not everyone can pay people. In my case, it's not that I'm poor; I just have no method to pay people over the web. Other people who do have money may not know who you are around here, and the way to fix that is to get more involved in the community. If you're popular here and your art is at least decent/spectacular (I shall cite the name of the great Deji), people will throw money at you whenever you're available. Build up your rep by posting around, opening a sketch request thread, etc. I know you say you're too busy to draw for free, but the reality is that people like free stuff. People will stop by a sketch thread, ask for whatever they'll ask for, and if they like you then next time they'll keep an eye out for what you do. Build a crowd for yourself here.

You also need to get connections around here. In the case of Untramen, I pointed two of my friends to her and she got to draw chibis for them.

What I think is that you're not known in the community enough. I find the trend is that new members who walk in asking for a paid job don't stick around too long or get hired because we don't know how your work ethic is. Yes, you cover that part by mentioning that you've been doing commissions for years and years, but there are people who'd rather see it firsthand.

Edit: Your prices are about the same, if not slightly higher, than the others around here. I'd lower headshots to $7-$10, waist-ups to $12, full body to $22. Just went to AX's Artist Alley, the prints I got were cheap ($5 for three small prints, $10+ or something for a poster. Take note that there was a discount for buying 2 or 3 posters). IDK, I'm frugal so I only buy cheap stuff or things I pretty much die for

Thank you for your detailed input and suggestions, CheeryMoya I've revised my thread...but I still think it looks messy. It's not as if I can delete posts x__x

I can understand that I know that the majority of people on here are probably teens. I do give out free art from time to time, but people rarely care ^ ^;;;; When I was younger, I'd open free request slots and they'd get filled very fast. But now, no one wants to request anyway, whether or not I have detailed requirements (because I honestly don't want to read a description riddled with typos and hyperactive wording. But if I do something for free, it usually requires that the person read about some important global issue or promote it--I'm not sorry about this.) I still owe sketch requests, by the way...but it's awkward when some people post in a strict tone, as if I'm obligated to draw them on dA...(I still want to finish them, even if those people have long forgotten...)

I might open up more obscure and less restrictive requests in LS, however...

In fact, most of you are making it quite difficult to choose a winner for the free chibi (unless my art sucks and no one wants one...). I might just open it for everyone who's already contributed as of 7/7/2012 @ 1:15 pm PST.

Dejichan was actually one of my inspirations back in 2006. I had no idea that she was active here, however. That's good to know

I'm actually working on a secret project with other people. I'm not going to post artwork or sprite work for it. Any examples I make from now on will be separate from that project.

XD If you go on the last day, or if artists are trying to get rid of extra prints, then they'll be very cheap. It's nice to look for good deals, but I'm very picky. I won't buy prints if the artwork is sub-par, if the composition/subject isn't interesting or if the size isn't worth the price. No matter how cheap or expensive something is, I always look for the intrinsic value. I wouldn't say that I'm particularly cheap when it comes to buying art ^ ^;;; (But of course, it's always better if it's top quality and cheap...this rarely occurs for me, unfortunately... I'm usually too slow for deals >__>)

[kura-ou]

Ditto for CheeryMoya and Sapphi. And just to add my two cents in:

I think that part of the reason why you may not be getting commissions is that this is generally a project oriented forum, instead of an artwork oriented forum. What I mean by that is that most people on here are either working on a project, just got done working on a project, or are looking at other people's projects.

Essentially, what that means for you is that, more often than not, you'll have to wait on other people's timing. There is generally a pretty small window between when people have references, and when they are on the path for a finished sprite, whether they are choosing to do it for themselves, or hiring someone else.

I think, honestly, you'll have to just hold out until you get your name out in at least on game. The good news is that many people on the forum focus on the art in a game, so even if you only do one sprite or CG, people will notice.

One thing that will help in the long run is to really develop your own style. One of my favorite examples is Sean "Cheeks" Galloway. He originally wanted to get into comics, but everyone he went to said that he didn't have the artistic ability. Then, he sent in a sample for the Hellboy Animated Series. Even though he didn't have the artistic ability that they were originally working for, they made room because they liked his style so much. Now, you can see his stuff everywhere (The Spectacular Spider-man, G.I. Joe: Renegade, even a LeapFrog game.)

Sorry if that was a bit off topic, but it shows you how far having a unique, recognizable style can get you.

Thanks for the explanation, ThisIsNoName.

I'm actually working on a secret project with other people atm. We're hoping to get the game released within a year or 2 if we keep up the pace.

Are you kidding me? cheeks-74 is one of my favorite artists who works in a cartoony style. I didn't know all of this O__O I'm glad that they picked him for the Spiderman project. It'd be interesting to see his style animated. (It was off-topic, but you mentioned one of my fave artists, so that's fine XD)

Well, at least all my art professors can tell apart my style from the rest of their students @__@ I still need to develop it further, though...

[HumbertTheHorse]

Could be completely off here, just trying to help, but I think you might get more responses if you switch your avatar to a delightful chibi of the type you showed above. Side note, I like your current avatar as well.

[kura-ou]

Well...my style isn't Naruto, Bleach or mainstream anime-inspired ^ ^; One of my friends already does the K-ON style, as well as a mix of her original style; she's so talented that I don't want to try to compete with her XD

I honestly don't like copying mainstream styles. I like mixing up my own style with any inspiration I get ^ ^;;; My oldest style was so crappy and mainstream that I didn't like it...but thank you for the advice, Sapphi, I will keep this in mind

Well... the thing is, what you like to do won't always pay the bills. Leiji Matsumoto - yes, THAT Leiji Matsumoto - was a shojo mangaka in his early career despite his decidedly non-shojo preferences. Now, of course, people pay him money to do whatever the heck he likes, but he had to prove himself first.

Another thing to think about is that your commission style doesn't necessarily have to be your personal style. You can do what sells to make money, then you can do what you like in your spare time. It's unfortunate, but if it's your only way to make income, you can't afford to be picky, can you?

I didn't know that about Matsumoto-sensei. Thank you for citing his example.

Um...can I just add a list to preferential style imitations to what I can and can't draw, or would that be unprofessional?

I tend to compare my RL experience with commissions and online commissions, which is why I have this difficult mindset. In a way, it hinders my growth ^ ^;;; People never requested that I draw in this or that style back then, they just wanted something in anime style that wasn't entirely shoddy ^ ^;;;