General art questions

[fioricca]

Hi LSF, I have a few questions concerning drawing and softwares, and I figured I'd just stuff them in one thread so I don't end up spamming. I guess we could turn this into a thread for general quick questions relating to drawing that people might want answered, too.

Firstly, I read in this thread that Photoshop is the best software for image resizes and compression. Recently, a few friends of mine have moved on to CS6. I'm still stuck with plain old CS2, though -- I've purposely avoided upgrading to later versions for fear that it would be heavier and so slow down my laptop. I've heard tales about later versions lagging and all that. :'| I remember that when CS2/CS3 was out, there were still a lot of people using Photoshop 7 and I tried both 7 and CS2 -- 7 was a lot faster on my laptop.

To users who work often with Photoshop, is it worth upgrading to the newer versions when they're out?

Secondly, there was a thread somewhere about tips for backgrounds (I can't remember which thread it is anymore ahh) but I believe someone mentioned something about aligning the horizon lines (?) for sprites and backgrounds. I... don't really get it 8D; Does anyone have a clue?

Finally, just some questions about drawing in general; I've always been confused by spines and the lower half of the body. ): I'm a little hunched, so I'm dead certain that the way I stand is very different to the way other people stand. I can't seem to wrap my head about posture language. I'm also confused with the orientation of the spine when it comes to dynamic poses, so I don't even know how to sketch out my guide lines. The other thing I'm confused by is the lower half of the body -- legs. I've looked at references but I still don't understand them for some reason -- how people stand in different situations, or, er, how legs are used, I guess. Does anyone have any tips/knowledge about posture language and how spines work in dynamic poses (foreshortening, twisting, etc), as well as on how legs/feet work?

[Kaireen]

Upgrading Photoshop:
I have no idea about how quick it works since both of my computers are pretty fast and I didn't have problem with time [exept for huge files like B2 but I find it understandabele]
Right now I own CS5.5 and do not feel need to buy CS6 while changes are not attractive enough. I think the best would be check what upgrades were added over CS2 and think if you need them.. If you use Ps only to drawing most of them might be useless, like upgraded 3D texturing.
I have some old version on Ps on my backup laptop and inability to use 'shift' on layers is driving me crazy.
On second thought you can check if brushes you have and like works with newer version.
But if you're satisfied with your old Ps I think it's not such a huge need to change it to newer one just because it was released. I know some artist even prefers old version because they are simpler to use and so on.

BG:
Theoretically speaking horizon is a line on hight of viewers eyes. if a character you're talking to is the same size as you his/her eyes should be on horizon line, over it if higher and under it if shorter.
I'm not sure what was in a thread you read but I would guessing it's about that? If you want scene to look natural all elements should be in the same perspective.

Legs & dynamic:
Drawing Legs are generally speaking quite hard to understand and make them looks naturally so don't stress about your difficulty.

Dynamic pose are considered as hard one because they use a lot of disproportion and perspective.
I would suggest to try start drawing pose from the spine itself. It might sound dumb, but It's quite handy. Spine gives most of motion emotion to the figurine. If spine is stiff it's hard to get natural looking movement. Movement is about curves and lines following one direction. When you get it right adding legs and arms and so on should be following movement.. I made quick sketch to show it, not perfect but hopeful might be useful XD http://gyazo.com/a184382fe29c693410a127446cfa1fca drawing silhouette might be helpful too in these kind of drawings.
One more thing. For better effect clothes, environment and so on should somehow 'follow' the movement. It's were general composition comes in.
I think it might be easier to redline it over your sketches so you could check out where the difference lies.

Your biggest friend in drawing more dynamic way is counterpose. It's basic and very effective way of adding natural look to all <dynamic or not> poses. I will not give a lot of detiles her but I think googling it will give most of answers.

Most important thing - do not worry if action pose looks unnatural. Really. People has to draw poses over and over again and some kind of understanding will appear if you try.
If you need some more help just let me know. I will try to find anything useful online or prepare same quick sketches.

[dramspringfeald]

Hi LSF, I have a few questions concerning drawing and softwares, and I figured I'd just stuff them in one thread so I don't end up spamming. I guess we could turn this into a thread for general quick questions relating to drawing that people might want answered, too.

Photoshop, is it worth upgrading to the newer versions when they're out?

No. PS is more Whore tech then anything else. It's like the Starbucks of coffee. The Mac of computing (note all 3 use same advertisements)
Just go with Gimp It's 1/10th the weight and almost as good. Just don't save anything in JPG. PNG @ max compression is the way to go.

Finally, just some questions about drawing in general; I've always been confused by spines and the lower half of the body. ): I'm a little hunched, so I'm dead certain that the way I stand is very different to the way other people stand. I can't seem to wrap my head about posture language. I'm also confused with the orientation of the spine when it comes to dynamic poses, so I don't even know how to sketch out my guide lines. The other thing I'm confused by is the lower half of the body -- legs. I've looked at references but I still don't understand them for some reason -- how people stand in different situations, or, er, how legs are used, I guess. Does anyone have any tips/knowledge about posture language and how spines work in dynamic poses (foreshortening, twisting, etc), as well as on how legs/feet work?

Google Medical Books and Human anatomy references and draw it. The only way to get better at drawing The human spine is to draw it as realistic as you can then "Dumb it down"

Good Luck!

[nyaatrap]

Unless you need over 4GB RAM for your painting, you don't need later versions. They are just slower Photoshop without good GPU. CS2 can use 4GB (in 64 bit OS. 3GB in 32 bit) and you barely need more RAM.
Sure CS5 has better painting tools than CS2, but they are still not good comparing to other paint applications.

Photoshop is basically a post-work application. The basic work flow is:
1) Do drawing with SAI, Painter, OpenCanvas, MangaStudio, or on an analog paper.
2) Import them into Photoshop and do post-work.

I recently bought ClipStudioPaint. It's just 4000yen but has all functions I need. I may never use my Photoshop for painting anymore (Unless I need to make compatible PSD format or batch processing)

[edit] Here is the related topic about BG: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 46&t=14280

[Auro-Cyanide]

Unless you need over 4GB RAM for your painting, you don't need later versions. They are just slower Photoshop without good GPU. CS2 can use 4GB (in 64 bit OS. 3GB in 32 bit) and you barely need more RAM.
Sure CS5 has better painting tools than CS2, but they are still not good comparing to other paint applications.

Photoshop is basically a post-work application. The basic work flow is:
1) Do drawing with SAI, Painter, OpenCanvas, MangaStudio, or on an analog paper.
2) Import them into Photoshop and do post-work.

I recently bought ClipStudioPaint. It's just 4000yen but has all functions I need. I may never use my Photoshop for painting anymore (Unless I need to make compatible PSD format or batch processing)

*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. Photoshop is a completely valid digital art program that has been used for years and is one the most preferred by professional digital artists along with Coral Painter. It's misinformation to tell people that it is poor or can't be used for digital art when people can pull of some of the best with it. It is the most versatile tool out there. I use Photoshop exclusively and it's never been a problem for me to do what I want.

As for whether you need to upgrade, not really. Every couple versions they bring out something cool, but the basic structure remains the same so you should be able to accomplish what you need with lower versions. I originally used CS3 and I don't think I'm doing anything I couldn't with it now I have CS5. I only upgraded because I went from Windows to Mac.

I do remember the thread you where talking about, but I'm pretty sure it might have been a bit of a derail or possibly in the Art Dump so I don't remember where it is exactly. The Horizon Line is basically where the viewer is looking. It's more than just their eye height. If they look down, than the horizon line represents their line of focus. Same if they look up or tilt their head to the side. When I create background for VNs I usually stick in some sprite of varying heights and put the horizon line somewhere along the average. Technically speaking it would depend on the MC/viewers height and then where they were focusing. If they were looking at a shorter character, the horizon line would be lower than the middle. If someone taller it would be higher. So I just choose something in the middle, usually just higher than half way that looks appealing.

I find legs tough to do too. If I get a chance I might draw something because I'm not sure I could explain it properly in words.

[nyaatrap]

I never say Photoshop can't be used for degital art. It's a best tool to do anything with one tool, but that doesn't mean it's the best on anything. I'm just saying use the best tools for best parts. Using multi-applications is faster to done one work in current available applications.

[junna]

Unless you need over 4GB RAM for your painting, you don't need later versions. They are just slower Photoshop without good GPU. CS2 can use 4GB (in 64 bit OS. 3GB in 32 bit) and you barely need more RAM.
Sure CS5 has better painting tools than CS2, but they are still not good comparing to other paint applications.

Photoshop is basically a post-work application. The basic work flow is:
1) Do drawing with SAI, Painter, OpenCanvas, MangaStudio, or on an analog paper.
2) Import them into Photoshop and do post-work.

I recently bought ClipStudioPaint. It's just 4000yen but has all functions I need. I may never use my Photoshop for painting anymore (Unless I need to make compatible PSD format or batch processing)

*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. Photoshop is a completely valid digital art program that has been used for years and is one the most preferred by professional digital artists along with Coral Painter. It's misinformation to tell people that it is poor or can't be used for digital art when people can pull of some of the best with it. It is the most versatile tool out there. I use Photoshop exclusively and it's never been a problem for me to do what I want.

Something my teacher said is coming back to haunt me...
"It's not the tools, it's how you use the tools that's given to you."
granted this was in a physical education class but he's kind of right. I mean...I've seen perfectly amazing things done with older photoshop so I don't see anything wrong with.

So back to the upgrade question...
it depends really.

Can your laptop/desktop handle the stress? And yes, PS is stressful on RAM. The CS5 I have is not installed on my laptop because it keeps giving me the blue screen of death.
Are you willing to fork out the money? I guess you do. lol.
Do you actually need the upgrade? Or is it just a status quo thing?
Are you willing to re-learn some new things? I find some people are reluctant to upgrade because they have to re-learn some features.
and other questions that may be relevant to you but the above questions are similar to what I asked myself back when I wanted to upgrade my laptop to Alienware...*ehem*

[LateWhiteRabbit]

*sigh* I wish people would stop saying that. Photoshop is a completely valid digital art program that has been used for years and is one the most preferred by professional digital artists along with Coral Painter. It's misinformation to tell people that it is poor or can't be used for digital art when people can pull of some of the best with it. It is the most versatile tool out there. I use Photoshop exclusively and it's never been a problem for me to do what I want.

I concur. I can't help but wonder if a little self-validation of a cheaper purchase is involved in deriding the industry standard program. Every studio I've worked at, and every graphic designer and artist at my art school used Photoshop, and it wasn't because they didn't know programs like GIMP and SAI exist. Many matte painters for film, and video game artists like Feng Zhu use Photoshop almost exclusively. I have heard from at least one former Disney illustrator that is drawing all their work directly in Photoshop.

Of course the end result is all that matters, but the quality of the tools used can make a difference in how easy or difficult that end result is to reach. Anyone who does a lot of color pencil work can tell you there is a world of difference between Prismacolor brand and Crayola brand. Most professionals use Prismacolors exclusively. Tools that become industry standard do so for a reason.

Other programs are easier to use out of the box than Photoshop, but lack the under-the-hood customization options and sheer depth that make the program so popular with the art industry. There is a lot of under-the-hood technically things that Photoshop handles better than any other program, like memory usage, pressure sensitivity settings, etc. So yeah, it sounds messed up when people say, essentially - "Those animation studios and professional artists are morons! Don't they know they can get a drawing program for less than sixty dollars or FREE? And those programs even have pre-made brushes for everything, so you don't have to create your own like in that stupid Photoshop program."

If you aren't a professional and just make art for fun, or if you are a professional and your current program does everything you need it too, you don't need Photoshop, but good grief, stop denigrating the program 90% of the industry and professional artists use.

Is there a reason to upgrade your version of Photoshop if you already have one? Not really. I'm using CS5.5 because I was able to grab CS5 while still a student at a steep discount, and don't see any reason to upgrade to CS6. Many professionals are still using Photoshop 7. (CS1 is Photoshop 8.) If you don't have Photoshop, but plan on making art a career, you can pick a copy up from Adobe at an 80% discount as a student or teacher and it has no restrictions. It is literally a full version that never expires at $800 less than retail.

As for horizon line, yes, it is always the eye line of the viewer in the scene. I.e. a straight line out from where their eyes are looking. When you place a horizon line in a image, you are literally choosing where to place the viewer in the scene, which is why upshots make characters look imposing, and Dutch angles can make people feel off balance.

[nyaatrap]

Actually, Photoshop isn't the standard among industries i know in Japan. Mangakas use ComicStudio, Animators use RetasStudio. Illustrators use Painter, or both Photoshop and SAI. Professional Illustrators who use exclusively Photoshop aren't many. Probably, Designers prefer Photoshop more, but I don't know this industry much.

Edit: Small correction. It's OpenCanvas Japanese illustrators used over Painter. Back in the day of 2000 when Photshop is still 6, those Japanese tools become available with cheaper prices and better tablet supports (Wacom), and people bought them for their first digital works. This may be the reason why Photoshop isn't the standard in Japan now.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

Actually, Photoshop isn't the standard among industries i know in Japan. Mangakas use ComicStudio, Animators use RetasStudio. Illustrators use Painter, or both Photoshop and SAI. Professional Illustrators who use exclusively Photoshop aren't many. Probably, Designers prefer Photoshop more, but I don't know this industry much.

I've heard the same. It is very much the standard in the West, but I don't think Japan had a Japanese version of the program for quite some time, delaying adoption in the East. Some professionals in the West use Painter quite a bit, but it isn't as popular as Photoshop because it doesn't utilize memory as well and has stability issues for large files. Also, Photoshop has gotten better at replicating natural media with each release, where now if a Photoshop user knows the program well, they can create near identical brushes to those available in Painter.

Photoshop has become so prevalent in the West it is actually a verb.

Photoshop and derivatives such as Photoshopped (or just Shopped) have become verbs that are sometimes used to refer to images edited by Photoshop, or any image manipulating program. "Photoshop" is also used as a noun to refer to image editing programs in general.

The danger of using multiple programs for an artistic pipeline is that an update to one will break functionality in others. I know in professional environments, the shorter a production pipeline can be, the better. That is why Photoshop is so often preferred, because it CAN do everything, and it does most things very well. The few things that other programs can do better, Photoshop doesn't do bad at, just slightly worse. So it isn't worth it for most artists to juggle multiple program licenses.

Also, in a production environment, budgets are often a consideration, and most studios don't want to buy multiple programs for their artists to use. Machines are often locked down by the IT department as well, and they don't like lots of non-certified or open source programs on the servers. We were told in school not to become dependent on plug-ins or other software, because we likely wouldn't have access to them on the job.

Adobe is popular too because they meet with professionals in the industry every year and hold panels to discuss needs and improvements to the Photoshop software; the addition of the Rotate View drawing tool a few versions back was an example of something added due to feedback from artists. They also routinely buy and add popular plug-ins to the software, like the Kuler palette creator, which used to be a popular plug-in for artists, and now is included by default in the standard Photoshop installation.

Using the same software across the industry also gives digital artists a common vocabulary to share strategies and tips.

[nyaatrap]

It's derailing the topic, but becoming interesting to know the difference among east and west to me.

In Anime/Manga/Game industries in east (those are only industries I know. I don't have enough knowledge on others), Photoshop never be the tool for line-drawing. Everyone keep doing in an analog way to produce those line-oriented works for long ages before introducing better paint tools to do line drawing. I guess western industries made Photoshop as the industry standard in this time.

When you are doing job-hunting on eastern industries, saying "I can do anything with Photoshop" doesn't work well like in west. Because companies want a flexible person who can learn any tools quickly and don't want people who is sticking onto one tool. So I was thinking it's better to show you can use many tools rather than one-tool professional, but I come to realize it depends on countries.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

It's derailing the topic, but becoming interesting to know the difference among east and west to me.

Hopefully since fioricca wanted to know about software, knowing the different uses of it in different industries and countries will be useful.

In Anime/Manga/Game industries in east (those are only industries I know. I don't have enough knowledge on others), Photoshop never be the tool for line-drawing. Everyone keep doing in an analog way to produce those line-oriented works for long ages before introducing better paint tools to do line drawing. I guess western industries made Photoshop as the industry standard in this time.

When you are doing job-hunting on eastern industries, saying "I can do anything with Photoshop" doesn't work well like in west. Because companies want a flexible person who can learn any tools quickly and don't want people who is sticking onto one tool. So I was thinking it's better to show you can use many tools rather than one-tool professional, but I come to realize it depends on countries.

The film and game industries want you to be able to draw straight into the computer using a graphics tablet. It takes too long and is too costly to have to draw everything on paper, then scan it in, then clean it up. The recent Disney short Paperman, for example, had all of its 2D design sketches and line drawings done directly into the computer using a tablet. Pencils, animation paper, and scanners are a big cost for a studio when they can just buy a graphics tablet one time for everybody.


At my studio, if you named your files correctly the project and team leads could pull your work directly off the servers at any time to show in dailies or discuss with each other. The Disney illustrator I had for a teacher in art school insisted all the drawings we made in and for class be done 100% on a graphics tablet, because she said she hadn't seen an art studio (that focuses on production) use actual paper in years. The end result of so much of the art is digital nowadays - either for film, games, or to be sent to the printers - that it just doesn't make fiscal or practical sense to add an unnecessary step of working in physical media first.

Western companies appreciate people that know and can learn a wide variety of programs too, but if you DON'T know Photoshop, they'll look at you like, "What?! Why the heck not? What have you been doing with your time?" I had to learn new software at the studio I worked at for instance, but they still related it back to Photoshop: "Now, this tool is like the Pen tool in Photoshop. We've even set up the hotkeys to be the same. You know Photoshop right? Perfect." I was basically given 3 days to learn a new program, but it was fairly easy, because whoever designed it did so with Photoshop users in mind.

Feng Zhu is a big name in the game and film industry, and works in Singapore, and apparently it is much the same there as in the West. Though it could be because he is working for Western companies.

[nyaatrap]

So Western anime studios use Photoshop on most of its work? Many Japanese anime studios don't use Photoshop at the first place. Retas! is their first digital tools and many animators didn't learn about Photoshop. When Japanese studios were thinking about Digital Animation, Photoshop is costly and it's work flow doesn't organized. Retas! is more efficient on animation work flow, so they bought it. It was 1996.
Same thing happed on Manga. When they start digitalizing it, there are Photoshop and ComicStudio. They compared them and chosen ComicStudio. it's around 2000~. Till the end of 20 century, everyone were drawing in an analog way.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

So Western anime studios use Photoshop on most of its work? Many Japanese anime studios don't use Photoshop at the first place. Retas! is their first digital tools and many animators didn't learn about Photoshop. When Japanese studios were thinking about Digital Animation, Photoshop is costly and it's work flow doesn't organized. Retas! is more efficient on animation work flow, so they bought it. It was 1996.
Same thing happed on Manga. When they start digitalizing it, there are Photoshop and ComicStudio. They compared them and chosen ComicStudio. it's around 2000~. Till the end of 20 century, everyone were drawing in an analog way.

RETAS! looks interesting, but it does appear to be very heavily Japanese based. Most Western animation studios have their own proprietary software used for animation, but Photoshop is still used for concepting. I don't know about Manga, but the Western comic book industry uses Photoshop very heavily. Whole comics are penciled, inked, and colored in Photoshop from start to finish. You say everyone was drawing on paper until 2000 - are the Japanese studios doing the paperless production like the Western studios now?

[nyaatrap]

From the history of the one of the biggest studio: Toei who became the first digital animation studio in Japan.
1996: They bought Retas! and start Digital Painting. Evey drawing process are still done on paper.
2000: They started full-digital drawing except backgrounds with liquid crystal pen tablets made by Wacom.

Other studios followed Toei by 1~5 years behind.
I don't have data when they start digital backgrounds, or they're still scanning analog background even now.

In manga industry, I hardly collect data. But I think many artists are still prefer to ink their works on papers.

In eroge industry, A mechanical pencil was the most popular tool for inking before SAI. Scan them then paint with Photoshop was general work flow. After they got SAI, ink with SAI then paint with SAI or Phtoshop (Depend on assistant members. Personal works are usually done with SAI. On the other hand, collaboration works are done with Photoshop), finally do post-work with Photoshop.