Complex Anatomy
- NialGrenville
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Complex Anatomy
Hello everyone! I have drawing for years now, and I enjoy doing it. There is an issue though.
I have never been able to draw humans or creatures!
I draw items, landscapes, and architecture like an experienced artist. It is not unusual to for me to spend hours on a drawing. So I have the patience and determination. I just seem to be lacking in some odd knowledge with animals or humans.
For instance, take my profile picture. It is awfully mediocre, and shows a lack in skill.
Take this photo too: even if it is just a head, it shows my lack of skill.
Then you can take this one (a work in progress): It isn't even finished, and it already looks more proficient than the living things.
I just don't know what I am doing incorrect. I feel like I am stuck in one place with creatures and people. So I feel like I sincerely need help getting over this step.
I don't regret posting this.
I have never been able to draw humans or creatures!
I draw items, landscapes, and architecture like an experienced artist. It is not unusual to for me to spend hours on a drawing. So I have the patience and determination. I just seem to be lacking in some odd knowledge with animals or humans.
For instance, take my profile picture. It is awfully mediocre, and shows a lack in skill.
Take this photo too: even if it is just a head, it shows my lack of skill.
Then you can take this one (a work in progress): It isn't even finished, and it already looks more proficient than the living things.
I just don't know what I am doing incorrect. I feel like I am stuck in one place with creatures and people. So I feel like I sincerely need help getting over this step.
I don't regret posting this.
Last edited by NialGrenville on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Have you tried drawing from reference? and I mean human/real animal reference, not from anime or cartoon.
Re: Complex Anatomy
Looking at your drawing style, I would suggest reading some proper manga tutorial (like "How To Draw Manga" series by Hikaru Hayashi or other author). While ideally we should learn drawing by observing real objects, there are tricks and tips in manga tutorial that could help you quickly understand what makes a sprite/character drawing looks good or bad.
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- NialGrenville
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Re: Complex Anatomy
I've not tried to draw humans truly. On indoneko's point: I actually have! I enjoy all the drawing books I read. However, I see a different issue. One that books cannot solve.
So, you think drawing humans from reality will assist me?
I sure hope so. I drew all my objects and trees from real life for two years before I was anywhere near where I am today.
Here comes another long two years I guess?
So, you think drawing humans from reality will assist me?
I sure hope so. I drew all my objects and trees from real life for two years before I was anywhere near where I am today.
Here comes another long two years I guess?
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Re: Complex Anatomy
@NialGrenville : hm... what kind of issue?
According to your first pic... perhaps a little problem with symmetry (flip your canvas to see any mistake), and perhaps lack of details (like her eyebrows, for example)... but other than that I think you've adequately nailed the general anatomy (assuming that you're not aiming for realistic style).
Do you have any sample of your character sketch? (preferably in the early pencil stage, not a refined one). I'd like to see how you 'plan' the drawing.
According to your first pic... perhaps a little problem with symmetry (flip your canvas to see any mistake), and perhaps lack of details (like her eyebrows, for example)... but other than that I think you've adequately nailed the general anatomy (assuming that you're not aiming for realistic style).
Do you have any sample of your character sketch? (preferably in the early pencil stage, not a refined one). I'd like to see how you 'plan' the drawing.
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- NialGrenville
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Uh... Hehe... No...
All my drawings were inked, erased, and colored. Any construction is gone. I apologize.
I've started construction recently much how I draw my architecture and such. So I can make something up right now. I wanted to draw anyway. (Total procrastination on the beam. I really need to finish that though )
If you think you got the cure doc, I'd gladly buy it!
The price obviously being my pride.
All my drawings were inked, erased, and colored. Any construction is gone. I apologize.
I've started construction recently much how I draw my architecture and such. So I can make something up right now. I wanted to draw anyway. (Total procrastination on the beam. I really need to finish that though )
If you think you got the cure doc, I'd gladly buy it!
The price obviously being my pride.
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Re: Complex Anatomy
In general, if you want to draw X better then you should draw a lot of X from reference. This is true whether you want to go for realism or a stylized representation.
If you understand the forms in real life then you will have the luxury of picking what features you want to focus on or emphasize and which are not as important to you. If you only study other styles then you are limiting yourself to a derivative of what is already a derivative, and it is very difficult to expand.
As an aside, human faces tend to appear as though they are symmetrical when they are close enough, but too perfectly symmetrical and they can veer into uncanny valley.
If you understand the forms in real life then you will have the luxury of picking what features you want to focus on or emphasize and which are not as important to you. If you only study other styles then you are limiting yourself to a derivative of what is already a derivative, and it is very difficult to expand.
As an aside, human faces tend to appear as though they are symmetrical when they are close enough, but too perfectly symmetrical and they can veer into uncanny valley.
- Fuseblower
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Regardless of whether you want to draw realistical or some variation like Manga style, it all starts with how people look for real.
There are certain "rules of thumb" for drawing correct proportions (the head is 5 eyeballs wide, there's an eyeball of width between the two eyes, hands are about the size of the face just going past the eyebrows, the body is about 8 heads tall, etc.). But you can easily divert from these proper proportions. The eyes in manga-style are waaay too big (but there's still one eye width between the eyes). People will accept the style because it's a commonly understood style. A drawing style is like a spoken language. There are a great many languages and as long as you're fluent in one of them, you can express things eloquently.
A problem arises when styles are mixed. Suppose you draw everything realistically but draw the eyes in manga style. It will look extremely creepy because now we have a person with a normal body but with eyes that don't even fit in their sockets and expand beyond the borders of their skull (the part of the eyes that we don't see).
In the end it's about how well you can express (communicate) certain ideas. These ideas are typically emotions. IOW how well can you express a character being angry or happy? And, of course, actions : how well can you show a character running, leaping, falling down?
You could even use stick figures. As long as you can communicate these ideas succesfully then your art will be good. Take "Calvin and Hobbes" from Watterson, for example. Technically very easy to draw but the way Watterson used his simple characters was very effective and he was highly succesfull.
I see art on this forum that is technically very impressive (the "I-wish-I-could-draw-like-that" stuff) but it looks dead. And then I see stuff that's technically very simple but looks great because it has great appeal (meaning it conveys emotions effectively). Of course, having both would be best but that's very rare
But there's one thing you want to avoid : that the technical side of the drawing draws attention away from what you want to express. You want people to look at your stuff thinking something like "Wow! That character is really fuming with anger!". You DON'T want people to look at your stuff thinking "God! That perspective is all wrong and it looks so flat!". It's the same with language. If you're stuttering, grasping for the right words, etc. then people are no longer listening to what you are trying to tell, they're simply getting annoyed with the deliverance.
If you're using a highly realistical style and draw the hands wrong (hands are hard to draw) then people will notice that and get annoyed at it. If you're using stick figures then people won't be even looking for that.
Symmetry was touched on : yes, you hardly ever want to use symmetry because it will invite close scrutiny and, more importantly, it will destroy depth (in the 3D sense).
Independent of style, there are a couple of things you'd want.
Consistency is important. You want to select your "visual language" and stick to it. In order to do this you'll have to understand your style completely.
Make things interesting to the eye itself. This doesn't mean "multiple layers of meaning" and all that "art speak" stuff but simple things like using T-junctions, varying straight and curved lines in the proper way, make good use of the many contrasts (light/dark, saturated colors/pastel colors, textured/flat, etc.).
Prevent certain "visual abhorrances" like having lines terminate in the same 2D spot where the actually don't terminate in 3D.
As for excercises : forget about spending hours correctly shading everything. Just pop in a DVD (50s musicals are good for this) and pause interesting poses. Make 5 minute drawings of them and get a feel for how the body moves. The same goes for expressions. What you really want to do is not drawing anatomic perfection but getting an emotion across to the audience.
There are certain "rules of thumb" for drawing correct proportions (the head is 5 eyeballs wide, there's an eyeball of width between the two eyes, hands are about the size of the face just going past the eyebrows, the body is about 8 heads tall, etc.). But you can easily divert from these proper proportions. The eyes in manga-style are waaay too big (but there's still one eye width between the eyes). People will accept the style because it's a commonly understood style. A drawing style is like a spoken language. There are a great many languages and as long as you're fluent in one of them, you can express things eloquently.
A problem arises when styles are mixed. Suppose you draw everything realistically but draw the eyes in manga style. It will look extremely creepy because now we have a person with a normal body but with eyes that don't even fit in their sockets and expand beyond the borders of their skull (the part of the eyes that we don't see).
In the end it's about how well you can express (communicate) certain ideas. These ideas are typically emotions. IOW how well can you express a character being angry or happy? And, of course, actions : how well can you show a character running, leaping, falling down?
You could even use stick figures. As long as you can communicate these ideas succesfully then your art will be good. Take "Calvin and Hobbes" from Watterson, for example. Technically very easy to draw but the way Watterson used his simple characters was very effective and he was highly succesfull.
I see art on this forum that is technically very impressive (the "I-wish-I-could-draw-like-that" stuff) but it looks dead. And then I see stuff that's technically very simple but looks great because it has great appeal (meaning it conveys emotions effectively). Of course, having both would be best but that's very rare
But there's one thing you want to avoid : that the technical side of the drawing draws attention away from what you want to express. You want people to look at your stuff thinking something like "Wow! That character is really fuming with anger!". You DON'T want people to look at your stuff thinking "God! That perspective is all wrong and it looks so flat!". It's the same with language. If you're stuttering, grasping for the right words, etc. then people are no longer listening to what you are trying to tell, they're simply getting annoyed with the deliverance.
If you're using a highly realistical style and draw the hands wrong (hands are hard to draw) then people will notice that and get annoyed at it. If you're using stick figures then people won't be even looking for that.
Symmetry was touched on : yes, you hardly ever want to use symmetry because it will invite close scrutiny and, more importantly, it will destroy depth (in the 3D sense).
Independent of style, there are a couple of things you'd want.
Consistency is important. You want to select your "visual language" and stick to it. In order to do this you'll have to understand your style completely.
Make things interesting to the eye itself. This doesn't mean "multiple layers of meaning" and all that "art speak" stuff but simple things like using T-junctions, varying straight and curved lines in the proper way, make good use of the many contrasts (light/dark, saturated colors/pastel colors, textured/flat, etc.).
Prevent certain "visual abhorrances" like having lines terminate in the same 2D spot where the actually don't terminate in 3D.
As for excercises : forget about spending hours correctly shading everything. Just pop in a DVD (50s musicals are good for this) and pause interesting poses. Make 5 minute drawings of them and get a feel for how the body moves. The same goes for expressions. What you really want to do is not drawing anatomic perfection but getting an emotion across to the audience.
- NialGrenville
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Wow, thanks Fuseblower. I guess I'll be working on that this afternoon!
It makes me happy to hear all these different ideas, and "corrections" so to speak. Ah what a day to be alive. I can finally make progress!
I'll return to this thread after I have practiced a bit.
It makes me happy to hear all these different ideas, and "corrections" so to speak. Ah what a day to be alive. I can finally make progress!
I'll return to this thread after I have practiced a bit.
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Re: Complex Anatomy
In my opinion, it would be more helpful if you learned how to draw the real thing first from references, then try to simplify it and exaggerate it depends on your preferred styleNialGrenville wrote:I've not tried to draw humans truly. On indoneko's point: I actually have! I enjoy all the drawing books I read. However, I see a different issue. One that books cannot solve.
So, you think drawing humans from reality will assist me?
I sure hope so. I drew all my objects and trees from real life for two years before I was anywhere near where I am today.
Here comes another long two years I guess?
And for improvement time, the more you practice and learn, the more you will improve, it doesn't have to be "two years"
- LateWhiteRabbit
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Yeah, there is a saying that all artists have "10,000" bad drawings in them. Now, that doesn't mean you have to draw 10,000 pictures before you produce a good drawing, but it means you'll still occasionally make mistakes and produce a bad drawing every once and a while. It's sort of like the old 10,000 hours to master a skill thing you hear a lot.King-sama wrote: And for improvement time, the more you practice and learn, the more you will improve, it doesn't have to be "two years"
What was eye-opening for me in art school was seeing professional artists, some of whom worked for Disney of all places - still make bad drawings. They just didn't show them to anybody (except us students in this case). They threw them away, deleted them, etc. and drew the drawing again. So it really is all about practice. Practice from reference of real people (or medical drawings) and abstract only after you've gotten the fundamentals of anatomy learned.
I refused to draw people when I was younger, because I was bad at it. I was bad at it, of course, because I didn't draw people! Now I draw characters almost exclusively to all else. And I still draw badly sometimes. Still working through those 10,000 bad drawings I guess.
- NialGrenville
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Okay, I have started tackling this. Yet, I don't even know where to begin! People are so much more complex than a apple, clock, or vase. Their forms are so much more... Free?
Buildings can get wild, but this. This is just a whole new place for me. Where do I start? What do I assume is a line?
Ah, it is almost like drawing the rose vase. Somehow, people seem even more complicated.
Buildings can get wild, but this. This is just a whole new place for me. Where do I start? What do I assume is a line?
Ah, it is almost like drawing the rose vase. Somehow, people seem even more complicated.
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Like they say, if there was no specific way to start start anywhere : p but, one way to know is to think what is the most important part of humans, in my opinion it's the head. You can learn the skull shape, meet, eyes, nose, ears, hair, mouth etc like learn the deep things coz they are the base of the outer look. Most people here will to tell you that the most important is proportion and anatomy, these are important too but harder than the head so if you wanna start easy start with the head. If you love challenges, start with complicated things like hands. It's really up to youNialGrenville wrote:Okay, I have started tackling this. Yet, I don't even know where to begin! People are so much more complex than a apple, clock, or vase. Their forms are so much more... Free?
Buildings can get wild, but this. This is just a whole new place for me. Where do I start? What do I assume is a line?
Ah, it is almost like drawing the rose vase. Somehow, people seem even more complicated.
This might help ( tho, it's not the whole thing, but..)--> http://www.anatomyzone.com/3d_atlas/mus ... -skeleton/
You can post your drawings here too, so we can help you more in the future
- Mammon
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Re: Complex Anatomy
Exactly this was my problem with drawing people when I was growing up. I was pretty good at drawing as a kid, to the point where I could almost say I haven't had much of a learning curve since I was 8 years old (Not sure if I should be proud of that ), except for people. 5-year old me could take picture of a deer and draw it in such detail that a xenologist could tell its specific race, while most children around me still made stick-figures that could also be a horse or cow. But until I was about 15 years old I failed to draw anything that could pass for a (non-mutated) human. And that human didn't even resemble the model I was copying.NialGrenville wrote:Okay, I have started tackling this. Yet, I don't even know where to begin! People are so much more complex than a apple, clock, or vase. Their forms are so much more... Free?
Buildings can get wild, but this. This is just a whole new place for me. Where do I start? What do I assume is a line?
The problem is probably that a line in a human face is not actually a line. With a building and even an animal, they are. But with humans the thickness, location and shading are all incredibly important to such degrees that anything trying to look realistic will be very difficult. If you draw the line between your lips and cheeks or add crowsfeet, you can easily make your drawing look 20 years older. You'll need rules liked the eyes-to-face rule that Fuseblower mentioned to stand a chance of success, or take certain liberties with the art. Anime doesn't make realistic humans, but created an easy to draw 'humanoid' instead. This 'Less is more' approach is probably a good one to keep in mind when drawing humans.
But, the specific problem of drawing humans: we people have face recognition. If you draw an animal, you won't need to do it to a degree that people can look at the animal you drew and see that it's the same one. It just needs to look like that species, and even then there are some liberties with animals we don't really know every detail of. With humans however, that drawing has to look like a specific person, an individual. And we will see everything wrong with that drawing, even if we don't know who it's supposed to look like, whether it's the nose being a bit too low or the eyes being a bit too big.
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Re: Complex Anatomy
You may also want to study how does our structure work. You'll get to learn a lot about human anatomy by drawing from real life, but you also need to learn the foundations behind our shapes.
I'll recommend you this youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClM2Lu ... 23462tQzBg
And lots of books about drawing human anatomy. Regardless of the style you're pursuing, the bases are still the same than in realism, and you should be able to apply it.
I'll recommend you this youtube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClM2Lu ... 23462tQzBg
And lots of books about drawing human anatomy. Regardless of the style you're pursuing, the bases are still the same than in realism, and you should be able to apply it.
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