Relationship problems in a romance visual novel

[arisemhr]

Hi guys! I started posting here just to write about this topic. This is supposed to be a blog post (for a blog which I have not made public yet) so apologies for the length.

Anyway, I am planning to write a boy-pursues-girl visual novel with a focus on romance and drama (looks like I am alone here sadly). The protagonist will face relationship problems before and during the course of the story (imagine School Days... without idiot ball hopefully). There are of course more stuff aside from that which I will not discuss in this thread.

I wrote the following questions to explore the darker sides of romance genre further and see your impressions on certain plot devices used there. I may or may not use them. If I did use them, they will be exposed early in the common route anyway so I do not risk spoiling my work.

I hope that this will make sense even if you are not fond of BxG. Also, note that I am fond of the cuckold genre in general (which unfortunately reside in the dark VNs that no one touches).

Q1: Define “pure love”

Let's say that my visual novel splits into its routes in this manner:

• Assuming that at the first split of the common route (‘Route 1’), the protagonist starts to pursue the heroines as love interests, would you still consider his pursuit of the other heroines (Heroine C/D) on the second split a ‘pure love’ story assuming that he and Heroine C/D end up together? Do note that this involves changing the protag's mind and rejecting Heroine A/B.
• Related to above, are you fine reading these kinds of stories? Do you find them depressing to an extent?

Q2: Protagonist gets cuckolded

Consider Heroine X’s first route (therefore, it splits to her second route and to Heroine Y’s route). Let’s say that Heroine X ends up with another guy at some point in the route!

• I know a lot of peeps who shun winnable girls because the girls end up with someone else who is not the protagonist (in other words, they dislike NTR). Do you feel the same way?
• If the girl ends up breaking up with the other guy, would you consider the protagonist accepting her as his lover?

Q3: Protagonist gets a new girlfriend

Consider Heroine M’s first route, which splits to Heroine M's second route and to Heroine N's route. Protagonist and Heroine M started dating and did all sorts of stuff couples do. Problem arises and he and Heroine M broke up. Heroine N happens to be a friend of Heroine M.

• How realistic do you find Heroine M and the protagonist getting back together at the later point of time?
• How realistic do you find Heroine N and the protagonist going out? Do you find a time frame for this to be possible? (This question might solicit opinions on relationship norms.)
• Do the existence of H scenes influence your perception of romance stories? Let’s say that you (as a reader) only care about Heroine N and not the other heroines. You then decided to pursue Heroine N’s route. Are you fine with seeing Heroine M’s H scenes along the way?

Q4: Triang Relations

Do you expect romantic endings on a series promising romance? What do you think of the following endings?

• Heroine pursued and protagonist failed to see each other romantically so they remained friends
• Heroine pursued and protagonist being estranged
• Heroine pursued ending up with someone else
• Heroine NOT pursued ending up with someone else

In addition, do you find the all routes should end in the same mood? Some heroines might have sad (or at the very least, not romantic) endings, while some have happy ones. Are you fine with this? (By the way, I am already referring to the good/true endings, whatever they are called)

This is a weird question but I might ask this as well: what do you think of a visual novel where one route has H scenes but the other does not?

Q5: Scopes

Realizing that the story I got in mind covers one year (minus childhood flashbacks), I am thinking of skipping time (e.g. writing events in May then skip to October) such that I only write what's relevant. I am writing a slice of life story so there is no urgency of any matter. Which do you prefer?

• Heroines having different time skips for the sake of relevance
• Heroines sharing time skips to see events overlap
• Not using time skipping at all since it's cheating

Q6: The non-heroine

Let's say that I have Supporting Character P who is shown to be interested in the protagonist.

• Do you always expect routes for these characters?
• Let's say that Supporting Character P and the protagonist were getting along, though Heroine Q gets in their way (which actually signals the beginning of her route). Would you dislike Heroine Q to an extent (assuming you like Supporting Character P)?

That's all for now. ^_^

[Flowers from Nowhere]

You're not alone. GxB is just really popular right now. Good questions by the way. Let's see...

Q1:
I could see this being well done. I have played games where I started romancing one character and then didn't like the way their romance went and switched to someone else. I'll admit it is a little depressing when the first romantic interest gets sad when you leave them.

Q2:
I got a bit lost in your description. Are you asking about games where the girl you don't choose winds up with someone else. I actually really like those. I feel kinda bad when I get a good ending and the girls I didn't choose all commit suicide or something. As a big Bioware fan I should point out that this happens in Dragon Age II. If you don't romance either Fenris or Isabella some of their dialogs later on imply... things... about their relationship.
Cuckolding, on the other hand, is getting cheated on by someone that you are actively involved with. I'd be careful with that in a game. It's a sensitive issue.

Q3:
Wow, this sounds detailed! How long of a game are you making? I could see a game where you start out with heroine M but eventually wind up with heroine N. That would be tricky enough to pull off. But a game where you start with heroine M, switch to heroine N, and then wind up back with heroine M seems like you'd need a lot of development to make sense. Remember, one of the main reasons that many games have the paths diverge after you pick someone is so that you can spend more time with that specific girl, thereby building the player's attachment to that character.
I personally would recommend only showing H content for the specific girl the main character is romancing. It feels like unlockable content to me, specific to each route.

Q4:
I do expect romantic endings in something advertising itself as a romance game, yes. These other endings you describe could also be included (and many usually are) but they're typically described as "bad" ends so if that's all you have your players may feel gyped.

Q5:
Yes, yes, yes! Always skip the unimportant bits! Long stretches of nothing will kill your audience's interest. Typically this is done by having little "October" or whatever the important date information is appear at the bottom of the screen to indicate that time has jumped forward and it is now October.
I think using the same or different time skips depending on heroine could work equally well.

[Didules]

Hi there! It's true that unfortunately there aren't much BxG games right now.... Here are my answers as a girl, so I'm probably not the kind of player you're aiming at, but whatever I'm also a player!
Q1: Define “pure love”

• Wouldn't it be more logical if the girl changed her mind rather than the boy? Because if the protag changes his mind...well if he rejects the girl after pursuing her, that would seem strange, as if he didn't really love her/ wasn't really interested in her at first. But it's okay (I don't mind at all) and why wouldn't it be "pure love" if he started pursuing girl C/D? It would just mean that he wasn't that interested in girl A/B. Or that it didn't go well for their relationship so he broke up. That would be quite realistic indeed!
• They're not particularely depressing, nope. It happens in real life, if it was that depressing everybody would be depressed on Earth!

Q2: Protagonist gets cuckolded

• I don't care at all to be honest ^^ It could be interesting if it's well done!
• It depends on how the protag handled tha fact that she was going out with someone else. If he completely gave up, then it would be strange for him to accept her as his lover, otherwise if he still had some feelings (even if it's not love), then okay!

Q3: Protagonist gets a new girlfriend

• Doesn't this happen a lot in real life? People breaking up and getting back together, and breaking up and...
• I guess the protag and girl N could go out together but... Err, as a girl I would find girl N a bit disgusting if it was done too soon. It would look like as if she just waited for them to break up to get the protag'... A time frame? Err, the time for the protag to get back on his feets? Or on the contrary, in a depressng way, he could just find some comfort in girl's N arms... any time would be okay but it has to to be realistic depending on the protagonist's state of mind.
• What a strange question! Err, I guess...I wouldn't mind...maybe? I don't think I can answer clearly, sorry...

Q4: Triang Relations
As Flowers from Nowhere said, these kind of endings are usually described as "bad endings" but somehow they are always my favorites, because that's the kind of ending where you really see if the story is well handled, if it's realistic or not. All the endings you wrote are good endings (not good for the player though) if they go well with the story and the choice the player made. There are no reason why there would be only romantic endings in a romantic game.

Q5: Scopes

• Heroines having different time skips for the sake of relevance = Yes. That's good as long as their route are the same length. Their route should be equal.
• Heroines sharing time skips to see events overlap = That makes lots of Slife games quite boring. Seeing always the same events... I mean, we already see the same things every time we're playing the common route of the game, so making it even more repetitive? No thanks.
• Not using time skipping at all since it's cheating = Why would it be cheating? As long as the time skip is explained (something that tells us that we're now in october), that's okay.

Phew! The end! I hope it'll be useful! Good luck for your project!

[arisemhr]

Thanks for the responses.

...

On Q2:
I am referring to the event when the protagonist happens to have feelings to the girl (Heroine X in this case) but this girl at some point goes out with someone else. This is kinda less of cuckolding on the protag (since they aren't really in a relationship to begin with) and more of to the readers. Similar scenarios exist in NTR VNs so I agree on having to be careful on this.

All of the above events would lead to different routes, as well. The protagonist might give up (and pursue Heroine Y, for that matter) and he might not (and consider Heroine X even if she had a previous relationship with someone else), and that is up to the reader. I am not saying that those are the only possible routes I could make up in this scenario, though.

On Q3:
I did not intend the two routes to overlap. Sorry for the confusion.

The protagonist in this case either pursues Heroine N after the break up he had with Heroine M, or he leaves Heroine N alone (and this is where I placed the possibility of him going back to Heroine M... which may or may not happen).

The story covers one year, with the first month being the protagonist and Heroine M going out. Plot length I think would be around one month (days are non consecutive). I am thinking of the length of a Little Buster's route, in particular.

On Q4:
I am actually intending to point the scenario where a route only has the aforementioned endings (in other words, there are no romantic endings).

-----------------

...

I'm a girl, as well.

In general, I am aiming these questions to players who relates themselves to the protagonist as he pursues the girl. I believe that these scenarios might strike more negatively to charage players who play VNs for the characters and put little or no regard to the story. Yeah, not a lot of peeps here are like that so this might not be the best the place to ask. Anyway...

On Q3:
I know a lot of people who would also dislike girls like Heroine N given the scenario. Just to follow up: would there be a difference if Heroine N is already interested in the protagonist since the beginning and did not approve of Heroine M's relationship with him (regardless of whether or not Heroine N shows it or not). This might expose the Heroine M and Heroine N's relationship is not really as good as it seems to be, though let's leave it at that.

On Q5:
I got Heroine M's route which is depicted to be going well with a little foreshadowing here and there. The time skip jumps to the time when this foreshadowing has already built a major problem that leads to the break up. I got a feeling that people might feel cheated at this style, though if that's not true, then good for me.

[OokamiKasumi]

...Anyway, I am planning to write a boy-pursues-girl visual novel with a focus on romance and drama ... I wrote the following questions to explore the darker sides of romance genre further and see your impressions on certain plot devices used there... I hope that this will make sense even if you are not fond of BxG. Also, note that I am fond of the cuckold genre in general (which unfortunately reside in the dark VNs that no one touches).

Before I say anything, I want you to know that I am firmly of the opinion that you should make the game you want to make, no matter what the opinions from others may be. In other words; if this is what you want to make, Do It.

Now then, from what you've posted, this appears to be the sort of game Guys will enjoy. Girls, on the other hand will Not.
-- Just so you know, American and European women are especially sensitive to cheating themes. They cannot abide Cheating under any circumstances, and will HATE any character that does this; male or female, but a female character trying to steal someone's established boyfriend is absolutely Loathed. If the Player Character is Female and doing this...? God help you. (If you're looking for hate-mail from female players, that's the fastest way to get it: guaranteed.)

Competition for a boyfriend is different. That works fine as a theme -- until the guy sleeps with someone. No matter what the guy says, or how much he denies it, to all other females, Sex = Chosen Lover. Once he sleeps with someone, any female that still pursues the male will not only lose all female player sympathy, they will be openly Loathed.

On the other hand, if the guy sleeps with someone other than this one partner --without first Breaking It Off with said partner-- the guy will be labeled a Cheating Bastard and your female players will lose all sympathy for him, and likely only continue playing for the H scenes.

Realistically, a guy that is caught sleeping with someone other than his partner will be shunned by every female he knows -- including his own sisters. In addition, every female that knows him will immediately tell EVERY female he goes anywhere near that he's a Cheating Bastard -- plus who he cheated on and who he cheated with. In short, the guy and the girl he cheated with will be socially Destroyed within 24 hours.

My advice? If you wish to pursue such themes, Don't market this toward females.
--It doesn't matter how pretty you make it, if you've got CHEATING in it, women are not going to like it. Seriously.

Instead, make the whole game appeal to Men; art style, music, game-play, events... and concentrate on fulfilling purely Male fantasies --cuckolding; and all other forms of Cheating, are strictly male fantasies.

Q1: Define “pure love”
Actually, I think I want to know your definition of 'Pure Love' because Love, from my personal (and professional) experience is:
-- "When your Beloved's happiness means more than your own."

This does not appear to be your definition; at all.

• Assuming that at the first split of the common route (‘Route 1’), the protagonist starts to pursue the heroines as love interests, would you still consider his pursuit of the other heroines (Heroine C/D) on the second split a ‘pure love’ story assuming that he and Heroine C/D end up together?

I would consider it Cheating, and the the protagonist a man-whore scumbag clearly looking for bed-warmers that they plan to toss away once they find the one they really want.

• Related to above, are you fine reading these kinds of stories? Do you find them depressing to an extent?

I find them utterly sexist and hateful, but then I'm a female.

Q2: Protagonist gets cuckolded

Consider Heroine X’s first route (therefore, it splits to her second route and to Heroine Y’s route). Let’s say that Heroine X ends up with another guy at some point in the route!

• I know a lot of peeps who shun winnable girls because the girls end up with someone else who is not the protagonist...

Actually they're shunning the girls that will Dump them. In other words; a route they Cannot Win.

• If the girl ends up breaking up with the other guy, would you consider the protagonist accepting her as his lover?

If the girl has already broken it off with her lover, it's fine. However, if the protagonist pursues a girl that is still seeing/sleeping/dating someone else he's a scumbag man-whore for ruining someone else's relationship.

Q3: Protagonist gets a new girlfriend

Consider Heroine M’s first route, which splits to Heroine M's second route and to Heroine N's route. Protagonist and Heroine M started dating ... Problem arises and he and Heroine M broke up. Heroine N happens to be a friend of Heroine M.

• How realistic do you find Heroine M and the protagonist getting back together at the later point of time?

Perfectly realistic -- as long as Neither One starts dating someone else. As soon as one gets a new lover it's OVER between them.

• How realistic do you find Heroine N and the protagonist going out?

Girls who date their girlfriend's ex-boyfriends are considered untrustworthy Sluts, and are not only shunned, they're subject to vicious harassment, and public humiliation from all other females. Seriously. It's right there on Facebook.

• Do the existence of H scenes influence your perception of romance stories?

I adore H scenes.

Q4: Triangle Relations

Do you expect romantic endings on a series promising romance?

YES.
-- In fact I expect to find a Romantic Ending possible with every single love interest advertised.

What do you think of the following endings?

• Heroine pursued and protagonist failed to see each other romantically so they remained friends.
• Heroine pursued and protagonist being estranged
• Heroine pursued ending up with someone else
• Heroine NOT pursued ending up with someone else

I expect these endings to occur for the characters I have Not chosen to pursue.

In addition, do you find the all routes should end in the same mood? Some heroines might have sad (or at the very least, not romantic) endings, while some have happy ones. Are you fine with this? (By the way, I am already referring to the good/true endings, whatever they are called)

If you are advertising the game as a Romance, I expect you deliver on that Romance no matter which character the protagonist end up with. If you don't intend to make every ending Romantic, Don't call it a Romance.

...what do you think of a visual novel where one route has H scenes but the other does not?

I'm not seeing the problem. If a route in the story doesn't need a sex scene, then there shouldn't be one there.

Q5: Scopes

Realizing that the story I got in mind covers one year (minus childhood flashbacks), I am thinking of skipping time (e.g. writing events in May then skip to October) such that I only write what's relevant.

That's perfectly fine. Just don't leave any Plot Holes. Any time the reader has to GUESS what happened between Event A and Event B, you've left a Hole in your Plot. Those are Bad.

Q6: The non-heroine

Let's say that I have Supporting Character P who is shown to be interested in the protagonist.

• Do you always expect routes for these characters?

If you introduce a character as someone the player might pursue: Of Course because Not following up on this makes a Plot Hole.
-- If you don't want to give them a route, simply Remove the Interest.

• Let's say that Supporting Character P and the protagonist were getting along, though Heroine Q gets in their way (which actually signals the beginning of her route). Would you dislike Heroine Q to an extent (assuming you like Supporting Character P)?

I would LOATHE Heroine Q as the lover-stealing slut she is.

Remember!
-- If you want to make a game of this sort, DO IT. I won't play it, but I am absolutely sure that plenty of guys will.

[Strawberrys101]

^ Best post I've read on anything in a while. Seriously. Kudos to you. Believe it or not that helped me a lot with what I'm working on.

[arisemhr]

Thanks for the replies once again.

@ Ookami Kasumi:

I wrote this post just to see other's expectations on these kinds of stories. Also, to be able to know what kind of questions my scenario will solicit. Hopefully, I will be able to narrow down things so it will be easier to communicate my message in the end.

I already got an outline of all the events so it will be hard for me to change things even if I want to (I am not planning for commercial release anyways). I have now realized that I am really leaning towards the dark genre and it's not surprising since I myself am a fan of it (which is weird coming from a girl perhaps). I am probably one of those who finds it weird when people find gore attractive but cheating repulsive but I am not going to start a debate on that (since that will be out-of-topic).

The story does involve a lot of broken friendships and social (slut?) shaming, which is how the characters find themselves getting isolated. The plot begins after he has already cheated and has broken up with the unfortunate girl. Two of the central routes is specifically about the girls who he cheated on and who he cheated with. And the other routes are about some other characters where one is his friend (who he befriended even if he cheated on her friend) and one is an old friend he lost since she detested his cheating act. I have to add that this takes place on a college setting, and in my experience, a lot of false friends exist though sometimes you have no choice but to depend on them.

On Q1:

From reading this thread, I might be targeting at 'true love' instead. I would just describe it in this manner: the aim of pure love (true love, as well?) is about making the readers feel that falling in love is a wonderful feeling. Since the scenario I have depicts 'imperfect' love, I kind of aim to show the in spite of all of the awful things, finding someone who will love you is a truly wonderful thing. Sorry for the vague definition. >_<

What if the routes are non-romantic in nature (didn't say it will, though just a possibility)? Let's say the protagonist fails to win the heroines. If he goes after someone else, would you consider it cheating (as a reader)?

On Q2:

The VN Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi (link leads to review) emphasizes that even the possibility of the girl getting close with another guy makes the (guy) readers upset, which is the basis of the question.

The time when there is an actual act of 'seeing someone else even if you got a lover' only takes place before the plot and the protagonist has already suffered the consequences by then. After that, all the routes strictly feature romance where the characters do not have established relationships when pursuing one another. There will be one route that will deviate from this, which is the route I illustrated in this question.

On Q3:

Hm.. what if Heroine M is the girl who the protagonist cheated with? Heroine N is not involved with the whole affair, by the way. Not really trying to seek answer with this question but it is sort of an example of 'fight evil with evil'.

On Q4:

I'll keep that in mind.

On Q5:

... simply Remove the Interest.

Do you mean that I should not have supporting characters who show interest to the protagonist? I do not really mind, though.

Just wondering as well, if I explicitly state the Supporting Character P is not winnable, would depicting her to show interest would make players have an expectation that I did not mean what I said?

It is certainly possible to write a route for Supporting Character P, though it will be disjoint to the rest of the routes and will probably be ridiculously short. That is why I decided not to.

[OokamiKasumi]

Thank you for not throwing rocks at me for my reply! LOL!
-- I did Not realize just how aggressive my reply was until I read your reply.

I am probably just a little over-sensitive on the topic because it's actually something I have to do professionally: Write xXx adult fiction that female readers will actually like. It's not an easy task mainly because what appeals to male readers of adult fiction and what appeals to female readers of adult fiction is almost diametrically opposed.

I wrote this post just to see other's expectations on these kinds of stories. Also, to be able to know what kind of questions my scenario will solicit.

Understood.

Hopefully, I will be able to narrow down things so it will be easier to communicate my message in the end.

You offered a good array of intelligent and thought-provoking questions, so your answers ought to give you some solid work-able information.

I already got an outline of all the events so it will be hard for me to change things even if I want to (I am not planning for commercial release anyways).

Then Don't change; go with what you've already decided on. At the very least, the letters you get from your players should give you some extremely valuable data for future games.

I have now realized that I am really leaning towards the dark genre and it's not surprising since I myself am a fan of it (which is weird coming from a girl perhaps).

Something I discovered in my research; the themes of "Love Gone Bad," downward spiral /mental instability stories, and tragedies in general, appeal strongly to the 14 to 19 age group, both male & female. It's not a big niche, but it is a voracious one.

The story does involve a lot of broken friendships and social (slut?) shaming, which is how the characters find themselves getting isolated.

As long as the 'shame' is focused on Cheating and not for simply 'liking sex,' you shouldn't find any opposition there. However, themes where "Liking Sex is Bad," also known as "Sex Negative," is a fast way to alienate female players.

Sex Negative is something the American and European publishers and authors of adult fiction actively fought to remove from published fiction in the early 90s. Unfortunately, the Far East has yet to catch on -- which is why they're having such a hard time marketing their adult games to American & European women.

The plot begins after he has already cheated and has broken up with the unfortunate girl.

Oh! Now that changes everything!
-- So he's already a cheating rat-bastard? I Like it!

Two of the central routes are specifically about the girls who he cheated on and who he cheated with. And the other routes are about some other characters where one is his friend (who he befriended even if he cheated on her friend) and one is an old friend he lost since she detested his cheating act. I have to add that this takes place on a college setting, and in my experience, a lot of false friends exist though sometimes you have no choice but to depend on them.

Actually this sounds pretty damned good!
-- However, despite the central theme of Relationships, this is definitely Not a Romance -- this is a Slice of Life Drama.

On Q1:

...The aim of pure love (true love, as well?) is about making the readers feel that falling in love is a wonderful feeling.

Oriental genre definitions aside, that is the definition of Romance -- not Love. The naked truth is Romance is merely a collection of techniques for Seduction. The results being entirely Selfish: to make the Self feel good by controlling and manipulating someone else's feelings.

In reality, Love (as anyone who has actually been in love will tell you,) is the opposite. It's Self-Less. Real love is about the uncontrollable and soul-shattering need to make your Beloved happy --Not You-- even at the cost of yourself and everything you hold dear. Real Love is one of the most powerful --and Destructive-- emotions a human is capable of feeling. More crimes (murders, suicides, imprisonment, rape...) have been committed in the name of Love than any other motive. (Let's see someone put That in a game!)

Since the scenario I have depicts 'imperfect' love, I kind of aim to show that in spite of all of the awful things, finding someone who will love you is a truly wonderful thing. Sorry for the vague definition. >_<

You're not vague at all, however depicting this realistically is not going to be an easy task -- especially for players have been in love themselves. Those players already know that all those wonderful things people say about love are a LIE.

What if the routes are non-romantic in nature (didn't say it will, though just a possibility)? Let's say the protagonist fails to win the heroines. If he goes after someone else, would you consider it cheating (as a reader)?

If the player has failed the route, and the relationship has broken off, then No, he's Not Cheating, he's simply restarting on a new route -- even if he remains friends with this ex.

On Q2:

The VN Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi (link leads to review) emphasizes that even the possibility of the girl getting close with another guy makes the (guy) readers upset, which is the basis of the question.

That's because their culture still supports the idea that a lover/spouse is something one Owns/Controls.
-- I have absolutely No Tolerance for those who think like that. One does not Own a person; not one's lover, spouse, or even child. Trying to do so is a good way to get yourself Murdered by the very person they are trying to control.

The time when there is an actual act of 'seeing someone else even if you got a lover' only takes place before the plot and the protagonist has already suffered the consequences by then.

Oh! That's an excellent place to put it, and a very powerful way to start your story.

After that, all the routes strictly feature romance where the characters do not have established relationships when pursuing one another.

Sounds good.

There will be one route that will deviate from this, which is the route I illustrated in this question.

The player comments on this route ought to be quite interesting.

On Q3:

Hm.. what if Heroine M is the girl who the protagonist cheated with? Heroine N is not involved with the whole affair, by the way. Not really trying to seek answer with this question but it is sort of an example of 'fight evil with evil'.

As long as the guy continues to associate with the girl he cheated with, he will be seen as "Still Cheating" even if they only slept together the Once and never again. Cheaters are expected to cut all ties completely from each other, which may including moving to another city, before anyone will believe the affair is over.

On Q5:

... simply Remove the Interest.

Do you mean that I should not have supporting characters who show interest to the protagonist? I do not really mind, though.

That's Exactly what I mean.

Just wondering as well, if I explicitly state the Supporting Character P is not winnable, would depicting her to show interest would make players have an expectation that I did not mean what I said?

YES.

Just so you know, I am thoroughly enjoying discussing this with you.

[arisemhr]

@OokamiKasumi:

It's actually great to hear opinions from someone working in the professional field. To be honest, I am sort of clueless on the whole 'target demographic' thing therefore I do not know what female readers like (again, even if I'm a female), et al.

I did not really find your earlier reply too harsh since I've read harsher criticisms from galge reviews (my reviews included as well).

Something I discovered in my research; the themes of "Love Gone Bad," downward spiral /mental instability stories, and tragedies in general, appeal strongly to the 14 to 19 age group, both male & female. It's not a big niche, but it is a voracious one.

I have to agree in this since I belong to that age group.

As long as the 'shame' is focused on Cheating and not for simply 'liking sex,' you shouldn't find any opposition there. However, themes where "Liking Sex is Bad," also known as "Sex Negative," is a fast way to alienate female players.

I did not focus on people's attitudes on sex (even if it's a good opportunity to reflect my country's culture, which I based the setting on), since the matter is highly subjective. It's easier to define my characters' attitudes on cheating since it depends on trustworthiness, among others, unlike on liking sex which depends on religion and other stuff which are difficult topics to handle.

On Q1:

Upon reading your response, I realized that this 'selfless' love is depicted better in the non-romantic relationships (the later parts of the routes) than in the romantic relationships I have established.


On Q2:

That's because their culture still supports the idea that a lover/spouse is something one Owns/Controls.
-- I have absolutely No Tolerance for those who think like that. One does not Own a person; not one's lover, spouse, or even child. Trying to do so is a good way to get yourself Murdered by the very person they are trying to control.

This is how I think some people found the (Japanese) VN niche sexist/exploitative, which is sad.

The player comments on this route ought to be quite interesting.

I think so, too.

On Q3:

As long as the guy continues to associate with the girl he cheated with, he will be seen as "Still Cheating" even if they only slept together the Once and never again. Cheaters are expected to cut all ties completely from each other, which may including moving to another city, before anyone will believe the affair is over.

I got a little confused here, sorry. Does this mean that even if he has gone out of the relationship (when the plot begins), going out with the affair (Heroine M) would label him as a 'cheater'? If that's the case, then Heroine M is the 'cheater' route. The other route (where he doesn't pursue Heroine M) does involve him cutting ties with her which was not hard since she does not have a lot mutual friends with him to begin with.

Otherwise, does this have something to do at the moment he still associates with Heroine M even if he is now going out with Heroine N? Heroine M does serve as an obstacle in pursuing Heroine N, though I will leave it at that in case that this is not what you're asking about.

Just so you know, I am thoroughly enjoying discussing this with you.

Thanks. ^_^

[OokamiKasumi]

@OokamiKasumi:
It's actually great to hear opinions from someone working in the professional field.

Oh good!
-- I'm one of those that believes that absolute Honesty and hard Facts are far more helpful to a story-teller than polite lies. If you don't know the pitfalls ahead of you, how will you ever avoid falling into them?

To be honest, I am sort of clueless on the whole 'target demographic' thing therefore I do not know what female readers like (again, even if I'm a female), et al.

It's simply a matter of figuring out who already likes what you want to create. Just so you know, the best way to figure this out is by looking at movies and books similar to those you want to create, then reading up on What they liked about them and Why?
-- Was it the Locations the story took place in? The Characters? The Themes? The art style?

Once you know what they like --and don't like-- you can use your creativity to put your own twist on these things and still offer what these people already want, guaranteeing that they will adore your creation.

Something I discovered in my research; the themes of "Love Gone Bad," downward spiral /mental instability stories, and tragedies in general, appeal strongly to the 14 to 19 age group, both male & female. It's not a big niche, but it is a voracious one.

I have to agree in this since I belong to that age group.

LOL! I figured as much.
-- However, once you get some real experience in handling your preferred audience, you'll be able to expand your skills and create things for any group at all.

...themes where "Liking Sex is Bad," also known as "Sex Negative," is a fast way to alienate female players.

I did not focus on people's attitudes on sex (even if it's a good opportunity to reflect my country's culture, which I based the setting on), since the matter is highly subjective.

There's that, and then there's the Language you intend to make your game in.
-- For example, if you make the game in English, your audience will primarily be from English-speaking countries where 'Sex Negative' is considered highly offensive. However! If you intend to write it in your own language, the English-speakers will never know because they won't be playing the game. (Until someone translates it.)

It's easier to define my characters' attitudes on cheating since it depends on trustworthiness, among others, unlike on liking sex which depends on religion and other stuff which are difficult topics to handle.

Trustworthiness is a Universal topic that appeals to all cultures, so that's an Excellent focus for your story. Attitudes on sex, however, changes radically depending on the culture, so no matter what or how you write about it, someone, somewhere will get offended. It's unavoidable.

On Q1:

Upon reading your response, I realized that this 'selfless' love is depicted better in the non-romantic relationships (the later parts of the routes) than in the romantic relationships I have established.

I'm going to have to disagree for two reasons:

• 1) One should never have sex with someone one does not Trust. Never forget: The conditions to have Sex and to commit Murder are identical. They both happen where other people can't see you -- and help you if something goes horribly wrong.
• 2) When one is in love, one is more likely to Excuse and ALLOW someone to do bad things to them, whether it's Sex or Murder. How many times have you heard someone in love say, "I would die for you?" Someone truly in love actually means these words and will allow their lover to kill them. If fact, this phrase is the number one cause behind double suicides between lovers.

On Q2:

That's because their culture still supports the idea that a lover/spouse is something one Owns/Controls...

This is how I think some people found the (Japanese) VN niche sexist/exploitative, which is sad.

To someone like me, a lover that allows their beloved to control them (how they dress, how they act, whether or not they're allowed to have a job, who they're allowed to associate with...) is highly Offensive. Someone treated like this isn't a Person any more. They're an Object; like a style of clothing, a sports car, or a pedigreed pet -- something to be thrown away as soon as they no longer suit the Owner's taste.

People and Relationships are Not something one Throws Away. Relationships, whether it's family or a lover, should be treasured as something that supports the Heart through life's storms -- not a fashion accessory.

On Q3:

As long as the guy continues to associate with the girl he cheated with, he will be seen as "Still Cheating" even if they only slept together the Once and never again.

I got a little confused here, sorry. Does this mean that even if he has gone out of the relationship (when the plot begins), going out with the affair (Heroine M) would label him as a 'cheater'?

YES.
-- Even if the relationship is over and they haven't seen each other for months or years, if they see each other again, no one will believe that the affair ever Ended, and all the lovers in between will feel Cheated -- even if it Isn't so! It's simply human nature.

Otherwise, does this have something to do at the moment he still associates with Heroine M even if he is now going out with Heroine N?

If he is going out with someone else, (Heroine N,) any contact with ANY previous lover will be seen as Cheating -- even if it's accidental! (Human beings are extremely Selfish creatures and always see such things as a personal insult, even when it has nothing to do with them.) Ask your girlfriends, seriously.

[arisemhr]

@OokamiKasumi:

...there's the Language you intend to make your game in.
-- For example, if you make the game in English, your audience will primarily be from English-speaking countries where 'Sex Negative' is considered highly offensive. However! If you intend to write it in your own language, the English-speakers will never know because they won't be playing the game. (Until someone translates it.)

I personally dislike the 'sex negative' concept (if I have not stated that), so it really does not matter. The language that this game will have, is an off-topic, but relevant matter for me. Dialogue occasionally gets awkward since I imagine my characters speaking in Filipino, but I write Filipino expressions in English.

This is a relevant matter in the VN.

"Flirt" is the English word I have for "landi," a Filipino word. I do not expect you to know the meaning of the word; I just want to show you that "landi" connects to being slutty, while "flirt" does not necessarily do the same.

Filipinos have a lot of harsh words for cheaters like, "ahas" (literally 'snake'), "kabit" (used as a noun but as a verb it's literally 'attach'), etc. The problem is I cannot find equivalent English expressions (or just not exposed enough in English literature to know). Maybe I should create a separate thread...

The language kind of shows how 'sex negative' my culture is; then again I prefer not to deal about it.

I'm going to have to disagree for two reasons:
1) One should never have sex with someone one does not Trust. Never forget: The conditions to have Sex and to commit Murder are identical. They both happen where other people can't see you -- and help you if something goes horribly wrong.
2) When one is in love, one is more likely to Excuse and ALLOW someone to do bad things to them, whether it's Sex or Murder. How many times have you heard someone in love say, "I would die for you?" Someone truly in love actually means these words and will allow their lover to kill them. If fact, this phrase is the number one cause behind double suicides between lovers.

What I intend to say is that based on how I was writing things so far, my depiction of other relationships like family and friendships appears to show 'love' (as how you illustrate it in the quote) better. I was just commenting about how I have done things so far - not stating a point or something.

I am not trying to disagree here, but one thing that I want to emphasize in this VN is that those aforementioned things (sex and death) are not the ultimate expressions of love. Those acts might reflect motivations that capture its essence but no one will see them. People in the scenarios you've mentioned could be taken by some as naive, psychotic or highly submissive. People will interpret someone's feelings in different ways. I would personally dislike having those elements in a 'love' themed story if it seems that it is placed there just for the sake of showing selflessness. I would more likely think, "what is this person thinking?" than "...so that is what love can do."

Number 2 reminds me of Tototo (leads to review again), where the main girl (the girlfriend) allows the guy to go out with other girls; in other words, the girl happily allows the guy to cheat on her. She gets jealous, but for the guy, she accepts it. Forget that the writer might be just doing this just to appeal the nukige fans, but some guy in VNDB finds the main girls' act to be touching (and the guy in the review and I believe otherwise). I personally find it disgusting, but who am I to judge?

I want to emphasize not "I would die for you," rather, it is "Whatever becomes of us, I will remain faithful (if I would die for you, I still would)." That might make my definition of love (at least for the story) more as forgiveness than selflessness.

YES.
-- Even if the relationship is over and they haven't seen each other for months or years, if they see each other again, no one will believe that the affair ever Ended, and all the lovers in between will feel Cheated -- even if it Isn't so! It's simply human nature.

The protag isolated himself from the rest since the break up, but he did not really estrange himself to the affair. Technically speaking, no one believed that the affair ended at the time the plot begins (the entire common route, actually). Going back to Q1, that emphasizes how the common route splits only to the routes of the parties involved i.e. I could have just let all the heroines be winnable since it's the norm on galges (Kyou's route in Clannad is an exception). I am now wondering on what people think of this Kyou's route style of splitting... screen time of love interests (don't know the proper term to describe it). Of course, unlike that route, things don't end with the 'we've now started going out' scene, which what precisely made me not like it.

If he is going out with someone else, (Heroine N,) any contact with ANY previous lover will be seen as Cheating -- even if it's accidental! (Human beings are extremely Selfish creatures and always see such things as a personal insult, even when it has nothing to do with them.) Ask your girlfriends, seriously.

I was just asking what which of those two points you're trying to emphasize and I am not really seeking answers to those questions since your answers would be what everyone's response as well. Maybe I should have not written that in question form.

[arachni42]

If he is going out with someone else, (Heroine N,) any contact with ANY previous lover will be seen as Cheating -- even if it's accidental! (Human beings are extremely Selfish creatures and always see such things as a personal insult, even when it has nothing to do with them.) Ask your girlfriends, seriously.

...are you talking about physical contact or social contact? Physical contact, maybe, but to consider social contact with a previous lover (assuming the relationship was officially broken off) seems to me like a sign of extreme insecurity. This might be my generation/culture (I'm an American female in my 30s living on the East Coast). Guy-girl friendships are extremely common in my social circles, including friends after breakups. Not everyone wants to be friends after a breakup, and there is definitely drama if something actually happens with an old flame (ie. kissing, or more), but it seems immature if there's an issue simply with contact. The thing that will get people angry (and understandably so) is dishonesty. If you say you're "going bowling with your buddies" but you're actually meeting with an old flame, it's not acceptable even if nothing happens. But that's not accidental; it's willful dishonesty.

I mean, I have seen a lot of fiction in which the dishonesty is inextricably tied with contact. It's like Chekhov's gun. If the old flame DOES show up, for the sake of drama it IS going to be re-ignited, things ARE going to happen, and therefore it IS a threat, and therefore there's some level of justification for the current significant other to feel insecure. Personally, I hate those kinds of stories. Contact = ok, dishonesty = bad, and the two shouldn't be lumped together. (Clearly, I'm not a member of the audience you're describing. )

I'm not disagreeing about what appeals to a certain kind of female audience. I'm sure you know that audience way better than I do, and I've found it very interesting to read your comments. For that audience, sure. It's important to know if that's how it's going to be seen. But "human nature"? No.

[Nekobiker]

Q1: Define “pure love”
Conceptually, there's nothing wrong with these kinds of stories. But there are some things you have to consider to make it plausible. Like Didule said, you have to sort out who's dumping who, because that will affect the image of the characters. For example, if the protagonist is going out with a girl, then finds a more interesting girl, then simply dumps the first one and pursues the second one, it will make him seem like a playboy. But there's also the possibility of the girl dumping him - to be fair, this is extremely rare in visual novels and can be offensive to the reader. Sort of like "hey! I came here to get my romance fantasies fulfilled, and this is what I get?" Of course, the player would have to bring this about through their own choices, but still. Personally, I'd love such a story where the girls aren't always 100% head-over-heels for the protagonist.

There are a few structural problems with this whole setup though. What if, say, I wanted to go for heroine C from the very beginning? Does she appear in the common route, or does she only appear once you've gotten into heroine A's route? If it's the former, does it become obvious to the player that they must first go through heroine A to get heroine C? If heroine C is the bestest character I'd ever want to romance, but doesn't appear in the common route, and I'm not interested in heroine A, I'd completely miss heroince C?

So, there are a few extra things to consider here compared to the classic formula (i.e. everyone is available from the start) but it's definitely doable. And no, it's not depressing unless you go out of your way to make it depressing. A relationship breakup will always carry negative emotions in a story, but how much weight these emotions have for the characters (and by extension, for the player) depends on you as the writer.

Q2: Protagonist gets cuckolded
I know a lot of peeps who shun winnable girls because the girls end up with someone else who is not the protagonist
I think someone already pointed this out, but if the protagonists isn't currently in a relationship with that particular heroine, then it's not NTR. If the player is actively pursuing a heroine, i.e. picking all the choices that would lead them to her, and she still ends up with someone else, then many people will indeed find it outrageous. The player will feel trolled by the author.

Q3: Protagonist gets a new girlfriend
How realistic do you find Heroine M and the protagonist getting back together at the later point of time?
I'm with Ookami on this one. As soon as at least one of them "moves on", there's no going back, at least not within the timeframe of the story.

How realistic do you find Heroine N and the protagonist going out? Do you find a time frame for this to be possible?
It's possible, but heroine N could then be considered a vulture, AND the protagonist would be considered a womanizer who grabs every girl within immediate reach. Neither of these have to be true, but even if you try hard to justify the situation as an author, it would reflect both characters in a rather negative light.

Do the existence of H scenes influence your perception of romance stories? Let’s say that you (as a reader) only care about Heroine N and not the other heroines. You then decided to pursue Heroine N’s route. Are you fine with seeing Heroine M’s H scenes along the way?
Personally, I'm fine with it. It might still upset people who like the pure and righteous "this girl and this boy are meant only for eachother" malarkey, but then such people wouldn't play a game with your setup to begin with. Lolz.

Q4: Triang Relations
Do you expect romantic endings on a series promising romance? What do you think of the following endings?
Heroine pursued and protagonist failed to see each other romantically so they remained friends
Heroine pursued and protagonist being estranged
Heroine pursued ending up with someone else
I'd love to see such endings. They would be unexpected and memorable. However, the vast majority of people would be very offended if they did everything they could to get a particular girl and still fail. Again, it'll seem like you're trolling the audience. If your game is promising romance, romantic endings are mandatory.

Heroine NOT pursued ending up with someone else
Except this one, I'm guessing most people would find it easy enough to swallow. Let the side characters pick up what the player doesn't want, hehe.

In addition, do you find the all routes should end in the same mood?
Absolutely not. I'm pursuing different girls because I expect them to be different people, with different circumstances and emotional packages. If they're all the same, what's the point? The different hair color?

Some heroines might have sad (or at the very least, not romantic) endings, while some have happy ones
Don't mix up "sad" and "not romantic". This is romance, so yeah, readers want/expect romantic endings. But the romantic endings themselves can come in any flavor. Romance and tragedy are not mutually exclusive in an ending.

what do you think of a visual novel where one route has H scenes but the other does not?
Like Ookami said, and any writer would agree: if there shouldn't be something in a route, then don't include it. But actually it's not that simple. Yes, there are too many VNs who shoehorn H scenes into routes just because they feel they have to. However, not getting to bed the girl they pursue would make the player feel cheated. But this depends on how you view your VN. If it's a story, and you want to satisfy the reader, following a writer's advice as outlined above. If it's a game, and you want to satisfy the player, you want to include H into every route because it's the player's reward for winning. So if there's a good reason not to include sex in a route, the player should still get at least some juicy bits in some form. like a solo scene or something? idunno >_>

Q5: Scopes
Heroines sharing time skips to see events overlap
I prefer this one. It's easier for the reader to orientate by "the timeskip" that happens in every route at one point. It's also easier to plan overlapping events this way.

Q6: The non-heroine
Short answer: don't be a tease.
Tsukihime spoiler below:

Yumizuka Satsuki instantly comes to mind. She is the most super-awesome character, but there's no proper ending for her. I felt so trolled... Isn't it sad, Sacchin? ;_;

[arisemhr]

Hi. Sorry, I got busy lately so I might not detail much.

Note again that after posting all the story stuff in my blog, some of what I have written in this post are just hypothetical scenarios. You might get an idea which of the scenarios apply best to which character/s, but note that all of the stuff in this thread is not the whole story. XD


@Arachni42:
My culture also has have ex lovers remaining friends, too. I thought it was just me.

@Nekobiker:
On Q1:
To help, this link has the characters (in order, though I will not use names as long as I am not sure with the naming ).

Conceptually, there's nothing wrong with these kinds of stories. But there are some things you have to consider to make it plausible. Like Didule said, you have to sort out who's dumping who, because that will affect the image of the characters. For example, if the protagonist is going out with a girl, then finds a more interesting girl, then simply dumps the first one and pursues the second one, it will make him seem like a playboy. But there's also the possibility of the girl dumping him - to be fair, this is extremely rare in visual novels and can be offensive to the reader. Sort of like "hey! I came here to get my romance fantasies fulfilled, and this is what I get?" Of course, the player would have to bring this about through their own choices, but still. Personally, I'd love such a story where the girls aren't always 100% head-over-heels for the protagonist.

Noted. I cannot explain much without spoiling, though.

There are a few structural problems with this whole setup though. What if, say, I wanted to go for heroine C from the very beginning? Does she appear in the common route, or does she only appear once you've gotten into heroine A's route? If it's the former, does it become obvious to the player that they must first go through heroine A to get heroine C? If heroine C is the bestest character I'd ever want to romance, but doesn't appear in the common route, and I'm not interested in heroine A, I'd completely miss heroince C?

The former is correct; all heroines appear in the common route.

At the beginning of the story, Heroines A & C are friends, while Heroine B & D are foes. Heroines C and D get more significant screen time in the first routes of Heroines A & B respectively. I don't know if that will help.

The protagonist does not really care about Heroine C & D that much at the common route (no choice would ever make him change his mind, that is). To illustrate, this is how the protagonist would interact with Heroine D in the common route:

Heroine D: "You have no one to go with to the fair, right? Me, too!"
Protagonist: "Never try. You don't stand a chance."
Heroine D: "How cruel!"
...
Heroine D: "That's a trick question, by the way. At least I have a date, unlike you!"

(They're friends and they share a lot of jokes in this manner.)

I can picture Heroine B and D in the last question, though. People who like Heroine D will have to go through Heroine B's route to get to Heroine D's route, and this requires pissing Heroine D off. There is no other way; going to Heroine A will make Heroine D not stand a chance.

Heroine A & C's routes do not have this problem. Getting closer to Heroine A would also get the protag close to Heroine C.


On Q2:

I think someone already pointed this out, but if the protagonists isn't currently in a relationship with that particular heroine, then it's not NTR. If the player is actively pursuing a heroine, i.e. picking all the choices that would lead them to her, and she still ends up with someone else, then many people will indeed find it outrageous. The player will feel trolled by the author.

There is a manga in this blog post about NTR where the protagonist and the 'stolen lover' is his little sister, and they're just siblings, nothing else. The post points this out:

However, the subculture has extended the meaning of netorare to include situations in which the protagonist is not actually in a relationship, much less married, but has a girl he is desperately infatuated with. He doesn't take steps to approach her, however, and watches powerlessly as some other guy seizes the opportunity. All examples of netorare I know of in loli manga are of this general form.

The only trolling I could sense in the story is if people just dislike the fact that a heroine goes out with any other guy aside from the protagonist. The route in itself, puts the protagonist on the position on whether he will remain friends with the heroine in her love life or he will just move on (to someone else).

On Q3:

Personally, I'm fine with it. It might still upset people who like the pure and righteous "this girl and this boy are meant only for each other" malarkey, but then such people wouldn't play a game with your setup to begin with. Lolz.

"Pure romance" is not my forte, so I can't do anything about that.

To add, this question is sort of related my other question on whether or not each romance-able girl has to have an H scene.

On Q4:

I did not say anything about the two (romance and happiness) being mutually exclusive. There can be endings which are about, 'We'll be together forever, blah blah' but some are about, 'We might become lovers, but not now.' The latter might count as a troll ending. Given that the 'romance' is not the only central theme, I dunno... @_@

[Didules]

Okay, sorry to pop up here, your talk with Ookamisumi made me think of tons of rather deep things about my own culture, and I wanted to thank both of you m(_ _)m
Good luck with your project
Have a nice day!