Writing trans characters and other genders in dating games

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avocadro
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Writing trans characters and other genders in dating games

#1 Post by avocadro »

Hello!

I'm working a script for a dating sim right now and one thing that's really important to me is having a diverse cast. I have experience with writing non-straight characters and feel fairly comfortable making realistic characters of other sexualities, but I would like some advice on how to handle trans characters, particularly in 18+ scenes.

This may be a bit of a taboo topic, but I really want to make sure sexual scenes with a trans character are handled tastefully. Is it considered inappropriate for it to focus on their physical body and any parts they may or may not have? Would it be better for the scene to focus on sex acts that don't involve those? I really don't like the "big reveal" type tropes with gender and I want it to be a comfortable situation, so I want to write it in a way that will be respectful of dysphoria without completely dancing around the sexual aspect of an 18+ trans route.

The same goes for nonbinary-gendered characters-- would it be better to focus ero scenes on acts that don't involve having to reveal/focus on genitals?

I am not trans myself and I'd like to make these writing decisions with the feedback of people who are, and I would definitely appreciate any insight or advice that can be offered, both for this specific type of scene or for writing in general.

Hopefully I've been clear and not made a lot of assumptions, but if something I've said seems troublesome please let me know!

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#2 Post by burnt_offering »

In general, I find it's better to just treat them like any other character. Real trans people don't want to be treated differently from other people, so I would assume that, for the sake of realism, your characters should just be treated like people of the gender they identify with.

That said, I'm not very experienced with ero so maybe ignore me :lol:
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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#3 Post by Greeny »

It's worth keeping in mind that it varies from person to person. A lot of "binary" trans people may be uncomfortable performing any sexual acts at all whilst pre-op (from your post I am assuming your planned trans characters weren't going to be post-op?), others may want to engage in sexual activity that does not involve "the bits" and some may be perfectly comfortable engaging in sex. As for nonbinaries, it's even more complicated and variable.

Avoid having your protagonist express an interest in any bits the trans* character is dysphoric about. That kind of fetishism is an unpleasant subject for many.

Both as a writer and someone personally involved in trans* spaces I believe it would be okay to write a scene where the subject is very much adressed, if tastefully: a scene where the characters themselves try to explore alternative ways of sexual contact.

As for outside of the 18+ scenes, it would indeed be good to treat them like any other person, although I can imagine it would be okay to deal with some real issues in the story for the sake of realism and narrative, as long as handled tastefully and any misunderstanding characters come around in the end and/or get their butts whooped.

I would reccommend finding some trans* spaces and carefully and respectfully asking for some feedback there.
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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#4 Post by Aurélie »

Greeny's points are basically in line with what I was going to say.

There's lots of posts on platforms like Tumblr about writing trans/non-binary characters. Obviously they're less about characterisation and more about a cis writer not wanting to be problematic or enforce stereotypes. So those could be helpful to you outside of 18+ scenes.

It definitely varies depending on the character. However, just because a character is the reckless, confident type doesn't necessarily mean they're the same way about their gender. If a brash character has bad experiences with people's reaction to their gender, they may be very sensitive about it and not want to make it a Thing. Basically, I wouldn't base how the person speaks about their gender off the initial characterisation of them, I'd base it off their history with people and how in tune the character is with themselves as a person. (This definitely isn't an encouragement to make the person's feelings about their gender their "Weakness", I'm just thinking of how you can add a depth you may be looking for.)

I'm not a big reader or writer of 18+ scenes, but my friend who is genderqueer doesn't really mind the idea of sex involving the entirety of their body, so long as they're not in a dysphoric headspace and they feel really comfortable with the person.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#5 Post by Pyonkotchi »

I'm nonbinary myself and I think its ok, very important to write trans characters.
Just write them like you'd write any other character, their gender is part of their identity but like, not everything about them.

for sex scenes i say again just write them like any other character you'd write. its fine to focus on genitals and stuff but not if its fetishizing. and not if its something the character is uncomfortable with

its also important to note not all trans people experiance dysphoria, or experiance it in the same way, one character could be perfectly fine with their genitals but have really bad dysphoria over another part of their body, some ppl might only feel dysphoria if they get misgendered but otherwise feel fine. and not all trans people want to transition

gender =/= genitals and gender =/= body image,

http://obstinategenesis.tumblr.com/post ... characters heres a post that says wat im trying to say except better???
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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#6 Post by Eight Rooks »

Pyonkotchi wrote:I'm nonbinary myself and I think its ok, very important to write trans characters.
Just write them like you'd write any other character, their gender is part of their identity but like, not everything about them.

[...]

http://obstinategenesis.tumblr.com/post ... characters heres a post that says wat im trying to say except better???
Thanks for that link! It's not a VN but I have a novella/novel on the go with a trans character, and it's reassuring to see even one source that makes me think okay, perhaps I'm not treating them too badly, all things considered. The only thing I wonder about is I do currently use changing pronouns, but that's meant to be suggestive of a bunch of stuff. The protagonist is thrown by it (not judgemental, just thrown) and sees them sometimes as a boy, sometimes a girl - the story is from his viewpoint so sometimes he refers to the character as "he", "the boy", sometimes "she", "the girl", based on the things they say or the way they act.

This isn't trying to say one of those is "correct" - people might think that's how it comes across, and I'd be happy to try and fix things if I thought they made a good point, but that really wasn't remotely my intention. It's partly the protagonist trying to decide how he ought to think and partly the character - who's young, like fifteen, sixteen - trying to work out who/what they feel they want to be, given various people have reacted various different ways to different aspects of their identity.

I'm not sure how much of this back and forth would go into the story; as significant as it is it's not the only thing the book's supposed to be about. And there's not going to be any overt adult content in the book, either, just a couple of references. Still, that's given me some stuff to think about with regards to this character, whether or not I actually write any of it down. (As in, I'm not going to be writing them having sex, and I don't really like thinking too much about that kind of thing if it's got no place in the story, but seeing that link I wonder - how would they approach it? What would they want out of it?)

I'm not very comfortable with the whole "You shouldn't write about horrible real-life bigotry because it's horrible" argument, mind you. Still, I have no plans whatsoever to mistreat this character because of who they are. I want to make it clear my setting is a world where some people definitely would do that - I think it's a very shaky argument to say you should blank anything like that, however well-intentioned your reasons are, or how little personal experience I have of the issue. But at the same time I'm very much aware of how much writing that stuff could hurt people, and this isn't meant to be that kind of book. GRRM I ain't.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#7 Post by Holland »

Eight Rooks wrote:The only thing I wonder about is I do currently use changing pronouns, but that's meant to be suggestive of a bunch of stuff. The protagonist is thrown by it (not judgemental, just thrown) and sees them sometimes as a boy, sometimes a girl - the story is from his viewpoint so sometimes he refers to the character as "he", "the boy", sometimes "she", "the girl", based on the things they say or the way they act.
At this point, Rook, you need to decide who and what you're writing for. Are you writing to give the trans community a fairytale? If you are, then switching pronouns isn't okay. But if you're writing to write a story, then stick with what you have. Your character is realistic to what people are like in response to trans, and him overcoming his insensitivity through the plot is more inspiring than him magically knowing how to act around everyone.
Eight Rooks wrote:I'm not very comfortable with the whole "You shouldn't write about horrible real-life bigotry because it's horrible" argument, mind you.
This, so much. That link was more or less a guide to being politically correct, writing to make a single community happy. People aren't perfect. That's like if someone wrote up a post about "How to Write Cis Male Characters" from the point of view of a guy whose ideal woman submissively sits in the kitchen all day - a guide that says, "Telling a cis male you don't want to cook his favorite meal would make him feel bad. He probably gets told that all the time by his real life girlfriends, so don't do that or else you'll make him feel bad." (stupid example, sorry) It might make someone feel really good about themselves, but it's not realistic. People are going to do things that aren't great. People will mistake your character for the other gender. People won't be accepting of it. People will misunderstand what is and isn't good to say in bed. You don't have to *abuse* the character, but they should face some adversary in the relationship, just like everyone else.

I'd also like to say that doing this isn't a insult to the trans community (no matter how Tumblr bloggers may take it since, let's be honest, they'll find something to complain about no matter how you write the story). Giving trans characters the respect they deserve by treating their relationships as realistically as those of their fellow characters is a way of bringing attention to the issues at hand without ostracizing the community, and it's certainly not a topic you need to tip-toe around.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#8 Post by Eight Rooks »

BarabiSama wrote:At this point, Rook, you need to decide who and what you're writing for. Are you writing to give the trans community a fairytale? If you are, then switching pronouns isn't okay. But if you're writing to write a story, then stick with what you have. Your character is realistic to what people are like in response to trans, and him overcoming his insensitivity through the plot is more inspiring than him magically knowing how to act around everyone.
I was just trying to be diplomatic, given I don't have many posts here and I don't always do internet arguments very well, particularly on this kind of subject. ;) But yeah, first and foremost I asked myself; are you doing this just to be different and exotic and all the rest of it? Answer: no, the character's trans because I was after two leads who were both working through some serious issues around their identity (a major point of the story is "Stop trying to be the person you think other people would want you to be", pretty much) and I wanted these to be issues they could not simply gloss over or suppress. Being a straight white male with a relatively comfortable existence there's always going to be some amount of "Ooo, that'd be different!" involved whenever I write about someone who isn't, but I don't think that's enough reason not to do it at all.

Yes, I do agree that post has an edge of Trans 101, the idea that "There are all these mistakes you're probably making because you couldn't possibly understand, so here, I'll clue you in". I've covered a lot of them without wringing my hands about it simply by treating the character like a human being, regardless of what parts they've got or how they feel about them. And I'm no genius, so I'm sure plenty of other people are capable of doing it too. But I think the post makes some good points, all the same, and I meant it when I said I appreciated having it pointed out. There's stuff in there that makes a lot of sense which I'd have taken a lot longer to work out by myself. I'm not totally afraid to point out when I disagree on something - when I say it makes me uncomfortable to hear someone saying "You should not write about X, Y, or Z", believe me, it makes me really uncomfortable. But I'm still willing to try and learn from someone, no matter how confrontational they might be.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#9 Post by Holland »

Eight Rooks wrote:But I'm still willing to try and learn from someone, no matter how confrontational they might be.
Exactly, you should always be willing to learn no matter the attitude of the teaching end :3 And that post is certainly teaching a lot. It's great because it gives you insight into what the trans community is and isn't offended by from an insider perspective. It's the perfect reference for when you need something that's politically correct about trans or need to some more information to characterize the reactions your trans character. However, try not to feel limited by it. There's a difference between being understanding versus being submissive. Now that you understand what is and isn't appropriate, you can choose just how appropriate you want to be.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#10 Post by trooper6 »

Eight Rooks wrote: I'm not very comfortable with the whole "You shouldn't write about horrible real-life bigotry because it's horrible" argument, mind you. Still, I have no plans whatsoever to mistreat this character because of who they are. I want to make it clear my setting is a world where some people definitely would do that - I think it's a very shaky argument to say you should blank anything like that, however well-intentioned your reasons are, or how little personal experience I have of the issue. But at the same time I'm very much aware of how much writing that stuff could hurt people, and this isn't meant to be that kind of book. GRRM I ain't.
My take on "You shouldn't write about horrible real-life bigotry because it's horrible" argument is different and based on history of literature/media for queer people. For the longest time...certainly thought the 1960s when the Hays Code finally fell apart, it was illegal to write any stories about deviant people (which included queer people in the minds of the censors) who ended up happy, because you weren't supposed to make deviance seem attractive. So for decades and decades and decades all queer people got were depictions of queer people who were a) evil and had to die or b) not evil but miserable because they were so deviant and by the end of the novel/film/etc they had to die, or c) thought they were queer but are able to be reformed into a non-queer person and somehow survive.

When all you get over and over and over again are depictions about how if you are queer you must hate yourself and be miserable and no one loves you and you are terrible and suffering and in the end you are murdered or commit suicide...it stops feeling like you are telling "a real-life story" and more like you are perpetuating a narrative that oppresses queer people.

Life can be hard for queer people and trans people. But queer people and trans people don't all hate themselves, they don't all wish they were straight or cis, they don't all end up murdered, alone, or committing suicide.

So I think depicting bigotry is fine...but I think pathologizing queer or trans people is not fine...and writers who aren't queer or trans sometimes ending up doing the latter when they think they are doing the former.
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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#11 Post by Arowana »

Hmm yeah, I didn’t interpret that post as you shouldn’t write about horrible things because they’re upsetting and not PC. I thought it was more like you should think very, very carefully about whether you have the proper skill and reasons to write about horrible things, rather than just using them as lazy backstory or cheap dramatic devices (linked examples are for rape, but the underlying problem is similar).

I think they were also trying to keep people from going too far in the opposite direction, i.e. thinking that horrible things must be happening to you if you have a certain sexual orientation or gender identity. That, as trooper6 said, raises all sorts of unfortunate implications. I once heard someone say that they didn’t feel comfortable doing a trans character, because that character would have to face a lot of difficult problems that couldn't be glossed over. While I’m sure they meant well, I found that a bit disconcerting. While some trans people undoubtedly have terrible things happen to them, I don't think you need to assume it’s the norm (whether that means you always portray being trans as suffering, or feel discouraged from portraying trans characters at all).
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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#12 Post by Eight Rooks »

I know I'm not the OP, but a couple of things - the first article I saw on the subject was someone talking about Game of Thrones. Not in regards to trans characters, obviously, but heavily implying the sexism in GRRM's books was inexcusable - saying that you couldn't defend it on the grounds of historical accuracy because it was fantasy and therefore none of it should have to exist. While the article Pyonkotchi linked wasn't quite that explicit I felt the language it used still tended towards that kind of viewpoint, and I can't ever completely support that sort of thing.

I do understand that people can all too easily think - oh, if you're "different" in some way (gender identity, sexual orientation, whatever) then your life must be a constant struggle every minute of the day and chances are something horrible's going to happen to you as a result. I'm well aware that if you're writing something the temptation is to think going down that route is an easy way of giving your story some kind of legitimacy, and that a lot of people aren't going to appreciate seeing you thoughtlessly grasping for kudos by talking in lingering detail about someone like them (at least superficially) going through hell.

At the same time, as BarabiSama suggested, I'm not trying to write a fairy-tale. I'm not interested in making these stories grim for the sake of it, but this particular one is set in a world loosely based on Earth at the end of the 19th century. I've got slavery, war, mistrust and prejudice in as plot points already to explain why things are the way they are: I'm trying, at least, to reflect that in the stories I'm trying to tell and I don't want to gloss over these things for little more than making anyone who reads what I do feel better about themselves.

Which isn't to say I'm not trying to make people happy at all. I've got people of different races, sexes, orientation, faiths and anything else consistently coming out on top because I'm not interested in writing grimdark for the sake of it, however "historically accurate" it might be. I originally shelved the story I'm trying to turn into a simple VN - the one I joined this forum for - because it had a grimdark ending which I really didn't like. (I wanted to make it a VN partly to be able to offer the choice of a happy, or happier ending.) I had another one where everyone dies which just read like teenage angst for the sake of it and I've put that aside too.

But I don't think it's my job to create a world where problems X, Y and Z are just magically hand-waved away because someone really wishes those problems didn't exist. If I write characters that are in any way like them, it's my responsibility to treat those characters like people, to avoid demeaning them for cheap melodrama, to give them every opportunity to prove they can be one of the guys (or girls, or whatever they feel like). But unless I'm writing about some kind of Star Trek-style utopia where humanity's transcended every kind of prejudice then I don't think I have to totally ignore the fact some people are going to harbour those prejudices.

Some characters treat my trans character with respect, affection, whatever because while to start with they might find the whole thing "weird", ultimately they're willing to overcome that knee-jerk reaction, to acknowledge it's just them being nervous around something they don't understand, and that's not worth getting worked up about. But - to put it crudely - this is a world with pretty ingrained rules over what boys are supposed to be, and what girls are supposed to be, so inevitably other characters are not going to be so tolerant, whatever their reasons.

I don't think I'm automatically crossing a line by trying to write a story like that, and I really, really don't like to be told I am. I can understand why someone might think I would be but I don't agree that's a valid reason to back off all by itself. And yes, I do think the person who wrote that link is leaning towards "I'd rather you didn't, full stop", and ultimately as someone who loves writing and seeing anyone expressing themselves through writing, I think that's something you should strive to avoid ever saying.

I think you should be free to say "Look, be really careful about writing this, please, because reasons", whether or not the subject in question directly involves you. I think everyone should be free to say "No, sorry, you've gone way too far here, I'm not sure you knew what you were doing". But ultimately I think that while it's a good thing to point out in no uncertain terms how difficult covering a certain subject and doing it justice is likely to be - as in really, really difficult - I don't think it's right even to imply that anything is ever off the table completely.

(Sorry that was so, uh, tl;dr? Hope it made some kind of sense.)

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#13 Post by E-night »

I think that the biggest problem is that many fantasy writers just copy paste real world's prejudices without thinking about the reasons we have them or if they even makes cultarally sense in the made up world.

I never bothered with Game of Thrones so I can't say if makes cultrally sense for sexism to be rampart there, but I know that I hate that people call it 'gritty realism' (in a fantasy no less), because of the sexism (and yes I have run into people arguing that).
How many fantasy worlds have godesses, high prietesses and other kind of societies where women hold an important cultural role and still managed to be sexist against women?
Far too many, that's for sure. And it's the same thing with same sex relationships and the non traditional genders identities.

I'm not saying that these prejudices should never be talked about, I just wish that more writes took the time to think where the prejudices in their made up fantasy world came from. Is it the religion? Is it an reaction towards another culture? Is it a pressure to have children or other kind of social pressure? It is the way the world sees men and women?


That is my thoughts in regards to fantasy/science fiction works.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#14 Post by Eight Rooks »

E-night wrote:I never bothered with Game of Thrones so I can't say if makes cultrally sense for sexism to be rampart there, but I know that I hate that people call it 'gritty realism' (in a fantasy no less), because of the sexism (and yes I have run into people arguing that).
How many fantasy worlds have godesses, high prietesses and other kind of societies where women hold an important cultural role and still managed to be sexist against women?
Far too many, that's for sure. And it's the same thing with same sex relationships and the non traditional genders identities.

I'm not saying that these prejudices should never be talked about, I just wish that more writes took the time to think where the prejudices in their made up fantasy world came from. Is it the religion? Is it an reaction towards another culture? Is it a pressure to have children or other kind of social pressure? It is the way the world sees men and women?
This is a good point: like I said, I've been trying, but I'm sure I've tripped up like that at some point in some of my stories. I'm just a fairly average guy who doesn't know a whole lot about prejudice against anyone, after all. (Other than what I've read about, seen in the news, that kind of thing.)

You can write a world where both those things are true, mind you. They're both true in the real world! But it's not good if you end up with that double standard and never realised you were allowing it to happen, or you did realise but you were letting it into your writing for no good reason.

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Re: Writing trans characters and other genders in dating gam

#15 Post by trooper6 »

Eight Rooks wrote: But I don't think it's my job to create a world where problems X, Y and Z are just magically hand-waved away because someone really wishes those problems didn't exist. If I write characters that are in any way like them, it's my responsibility to treat those characters like people, to avoid demeaning them for cheap melodrama, to give them every opportunity to prove they can be one of the guys (or girls, or whatever they feel like). But unless I'm writing about some kind of Star Trek-style utopia where humanity's transcended every kind of prejudice then I don't think I have to totally ignore the fact some people are going to harbour those prejudices.

Some characters treat my trans character with respect, affection, whatever because while to start with they might find the whole thing "weird", ultimately they're willing to overcome that knee-jerk reaction, to acknowledge it's just them being nervous around something they don't understand, and that's not worth getting worked up about. But - to put it crudely - this is a world with pretty ingrained rules over what boys are supposed to be, and what girls are supposed to be, so inevitably other characters are not going to be so tolerant, whatever their reasons.
What I think many people want to express is that you can be gay, trans, etc and have a happy life. Also, not every person has a knee-jerk intolerant response to trans people. That isn't a fantasy or a fairy tale.

I am trans. I do not deal with interpersonal anti-trans prejudice in my daily life. I don't have people attacking me or yelling slurs at me or whatever. Nothing is magically hand-waved away, but how people actually maneuver through life as trans is more subtle than somebody being an over the top bigot. There are also over the top bigots, of course, but that is not the only way that prejudice manifests, and that is not the 100% "reality" for all trans people. Depending on where you live, your socioeconomic status, your subculture, your passability, etc, you can build a life that is mostly insulated from interpersonal prejudice (structural prejudice no...but that is experienced differently)

I am completely passable. So no one knows I'm trans unless I tell them. Or I'm naked with them. No one in my life treats me poorly or strangely because I'm trans. Not one person who I am close with. And people who are likely to treat me poorly? Are not people I tell...and they are not people I let into my personal life. You can build a life where your friends and loved ones are cool with you--or are at least polite enough not to be rude. Where you are happy and affirmed. Does this mean I have no troubles? Certainly I still have troubles. For example I had lots of anxiety when I moved here and I had to get a new doctor. I had to find someone who wasn't transphobic. I found one. And now that is all settled. I worry about random things...like if there are stalls with doors on them in the public men's bathroom so I can pee without putting my life at risk...but other than low level bathroom safety anxiety my life is good. And I don't live in a fairy tale. I am a real person. Dating is a slightly different beast, but also manageable and lots of trans people find love. I also know lots of queer people who didn't have any self-hating issues or coming out issues or confusion.

The point is that it isn't "reality" to imagine that all trans people (or queer people) are miserable and they mostly deal with hate or discomfort on a daily basis. Or that it is a normal reaction to be transphobic. There are certainly trans people who are murdered in real life...and in shocking numbers. But not all trans people. And as a trans person, when the only stories that cis-people seem interested in are stories about how people like me are raped and murdered...then it feels creepy. If feels like you get off on imagining me dead or miserable, but are bored by imagining me alive or happy. Straight people and cis people get to be detectives and super-heros and nurses and whatever and I get to be a murder victim, a serial killer, a sufferer? That feels oppressive.

Look, I liked Boys Don't Cry. But if that is the only depiction of transmen? That is a problem. Because what message does that send to a young transman just starting his journey? Not a good one, that's for sure.

I am all for reality. But I am also a part of reality.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

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