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Taleweaver wrote:

OokamiKasumi wrote: -- What do you mean by "third hand"?

Probably something like this:

He held me tightly, both his hands firmly squeezing my butt, while he gently ran his fingers over my temple...

I imagined it and bursted in laughter. It's 3AM here, my neighbourns aren't amused.

Thanks for the guideline, OokamiKasumi, I actually never thought about it that way. Surprisingly my Spanish writing SEEMS to be well structured, but I'm afraid my English work... will need some polishing, now that I see this. Great advice!

truefaiterman wrote:

Taleweaver wrote:He held me tightly, both his hands firmly squeezing my butt, while he gently ran his fingers over my temple...

I imagined it and burst out in laughter. It's 3AM here, my neighbors aren't amused.

Thanks for the guideline, OokamiKasumi, I actually never thought about it that way. Surprisingly my Spanish writing SEEMS to be well structured, but I'm afraid my English work... will need some polishing, now that I see this. Great advice!

I'm glad you liked my advice.
-- Writing your sentences out in order things actually happen and paragraphing by character may seem like a pain in the arse at first because it usually means restructuring almost every written line. In other words, a ton of editing work. However, that's only at first!

Once you get used to writing this way, you'll find that not only does your work come out cleaner the first time around, it's much easier to tell when you don't have enough description, or if an action scene is lagging. Another benefit is that it's also easier to envision your story as a movie while you write which makes getting your scenes on the page faster.

I hope you put it to good use.

This is very good! It has some good points in here that'll be really helpful for any type of writing that I'll be making

I forgot to say this, but I found this very helpful! You're awesome, Ookami. :D

soraibi wrote:This is very good! It has some good points in here that'll be really helpful for any type of writing that I'll be making

I'm glad you liked it. I hope it proves useful.

chocojax wrote:I forgot to say this, but I found this very helpful! You're awesome, Ookami.

Thank you so much! I adore being helpful.

This is all very good advice, but I think that one shouldn't follow it blindly. As with all guidelines and rules, once you've understood them you are allowed to break them if necessary(!).

Take "write in past tense" for example. In prose, it's imperative to me. However, in interactive narrative fiction, such as CYOA (Choose Your Own Adventure) or VNs, it destroys immersion in the story. If I'm supposed to feel like I myself am experiencing the events, like in anything giving me choices and using my POV, using past tense distances me from the action. Present tense is imperative then.

However, I find all of your advices to be extremely useful and read them all on your website. I will probably need to re-read them a few times until it all sticks, but it's worth it and also quite entertaining.

Milkymalk wrote:This is all very good advice, but I think that one shouldn't follow it blindly. As with all guidelines and rules, once you've understood them you are allowed to break them if necessary(!).

Breaking rules is all well and fine -- until you get an editor.

From my editor:

There's a difference between breaking rules and writing crap. Unfortunately, too many writers can't tell the difference. Break the rules in your Plotting and Characters -- not in your Grammar.

Milkymalk wrote:Take "write in past tense" for example. In prose, it's imperative to me. However, in interactive narrative fiction, such as CYOA (Choose Your Own Adventure) or VNs, it destroys immersion in the story. If I'm supposed to feel like I myself am experiencing the events, like in anything giving me choices and using my POV, using past tense distances me from the action. Present tense is imperative then.

Actually, the better CYOAs are written in 2nd person POV, Past Tense. The Options to choose from are written in 2end Person POV, Present Tense. (I actually have some of those old books on my shelf.)

Anyway... How you choose to write your games is up to you. This is just an Option you can choose to use in your games or not. I just decided to explain why "I" choose to write this way. The short answer being: "Because my editor plays my games. She WILL nail me to the wall if I don't get the sentence structure Right."

Milkymalk wrote:However, I find all of your advices to be extremely useful and read them all on your website. I will probably need to re-read them a few times until it all sticks, but it's worth it and also quite entertaining.

I'm glad you've been enjoying my essays.
-- A snarky attitude makes dry factual crap a lot easier to read -- and remember.

OokamiKasumi wrote:

Milkymalk wrote:Take "write in past tense" for example. In prose, it's imperative to me. However, in interactive narrative fiction, such as CYOA (Choose Your Own Adventure) or VNs, it destroys immersion in the story. If I'm supposed to feel like I myself am experiencing the events, like in anything giving me choices and using my POV, using past tense distances me from the action. Present tense is imperative then.

Actually, the better CYOAs are written in 2nd person POV, Past Tense. The Options to choose from are written in 2end Person POV, Present Tense. (I actually have some of those old books on my shelf.)

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear: They are narrated in 2nd person, yes, but they are still from MY POV. They tell me what I see and experience, they even TELL me that it's me by adressing me directly.

It's a strange mind thing: Telling me in past tense about a great danger I was in takes the danger away because I obviously lived to be told about it. I don't know if this makes any sense. Telling me in present tense makes me wonder if I will get out of it in one piece, instead.

Also, maybe it has to do with language. I have to admit I didn't read that many CYOAs in English; in German, they are always in present tense. At least I didn't see any in past tense yet, and I used to read a lot of DSA solo adventure books.

As I said I think it makes a difference if you write a pure narration, i.e. a novel, or narration with the reader as a participator, i.e. a VN. I see from your screenshots that you write your games more like an illustrated novel. That's fine and makes it more logical to apply novel writing rules. As for me, I think when writing a game that consists mainly of character standups with expressions and dialogue below, with an occasional or even frequent actions description, using present tense just feels more right.

Milkymalk wrote:It's a strange mind thing: Telling me in past tense about a great danger I was in takes the danger away because I obviously lived to be told about it. I don't know if this makes any sense. Telling me in present tense makes me wonder if I will get out of it in one piece, instead.

Ah... So you're using Present Tense to increase tension, in other words; suspense.

Milkymalk wrote:Also, maybe it has to do with language. I have to admit I didn't read that many CYOAs in English; in German, they are always in present tense. At least I didn't see any in past tense yet, and I used to read a lot of DSA solo adventure books.

The CYOA books I have were written by people who previously wrote novels. That could be why they were written in Past tense. Also, a story as a game was still really new at the time so there wasn't anything they could use as a model other than Books. That your CYOAs were written in German could be the main reason why they were in Present tense. I've noticed that most books Not written in English tend to be in Present tense.

Milkymalk wrote:As I said, I think it makes a difference if you write a pure narration, i.e. a novel, or narration with the reader as a participator, i.e. a VN. I see from your screen-shots that you write your games more like an illustrated novel. That's fine and makes it more logical to apply novel writing rules.

Yes, I write them the same way I would a regular novel, (but without all the description.) However, Choices are still part of the story. The CYOA books are the model I'm working from.

Milkymalk wrote:As for me, I think when writing a game that consists mainly of character standups with expressions and dialogue below, with an occasional or even frequent actions description, using present tense just feels more right.

If the reader is a participant --an actual character in the story-- then you're creating more of a Simulation game. Those work well in Present Tense -- IF you do it right. Present Tense is notoriously difficult in English. Make sure you get yourself a Good proofreader, preferably 2 of them.

My games also consist of character standups with expressions and dialogue below, with an occasional or even frequent actions description... However, the player isn't a Character. The player is Observing the characters and choosing their actions, so they are indeed more like illustrated novels -- just as you said.

Either way, You are the creator. Do what feels right to You.

Hmm, never thought of that when I was writing. I'll be looking for it now and seeing if it makes things flow better. Thanks.

Lesleigh63 wrote:Hmm, never thought of that when I was writing. I'll be looking for it now and seeing if it makes things flow better. Thanks.

Writing sentences out in the actual order that things happen and paragraphing by character should definitely make thing easier to Visualize -- for the reader and while you write.

This character did this and said this.
That character said that and did that.
This character reacted this way and snarked out this to that character.
That character huffed and rolled their eyes.

If the sentences seem too short, add more description.

OokamiKasumi wrote: That your CYOAs were written in German could be the main reason why they were in Present tense. I've noticed that most books Not written in English tend to be in Present tense.

That's actually not true for German. I don't know about other languages, but novels are usually also written in past tense in German. There are novels in present tense, but this is usually a sign for an inexperienced writer and a heavy self insert.

Japanese novelists, by contrast, tend to jump the tenses however they want. Past tense in one sentence, present tense in the next, then back to past tense. The reason why this is accepted is probably the fact that Japanese is less reliant on tenses than most European languages.

Milkymalk wrote:

OokamiKasumi wrote: That your CYOAs were written in German could be the main reason why they were in Present tense. I've noticed that most books Not written in English tend to be in Present tense.

That's actually not true for German. I don't know about other languages, but novels are usually also written in past tense in German. There are novels in present tense, but this is usually a sign for an inexperienced writer and a heavy self insert.

Oh! I had no idea. Thanks for letting me know.

Milkymalk wrote:Japanese novelists, by contrast, tend to jump the tenses however they want. Past tense in one sentence, present tense in the next, then back to past tense. The reason why this is accepted is probably the fact that Japanese is less reliant on tenses than most European languages.

This I have indeed noticed -- especially in their 'light' novels. It plays havoc in translation. They are also notorious for having very little description, using what is happening rather than what it looks like. When they do actually describe something they tend to use very general terms or completely vague terms -- and Sound Effects words. (Unless they're talking about feelings. Then they go overboard.) I suspect that they rely a little too heavily on the reader already knowing what they're talking about.

SinSisters wrote:Hmm, interesting post, though not sure I would take it all as a strict guideline. One of the things I love about writing is that you can either follow to the guidebook or give yourself complete freedom. For me, I would pick having a sentence sound nice over having it follow all the rules. If I have interrelated actions, then it seems silly to separate them into their own paragraph. "Janice takes a step closer to Mark, causing him to cower if fear." If I was writing a sentence like that, even if it's correct to separate them, would I want to? Very few readers would know about this rule (well, until now that is LOL). These rules seem to make more sense for for plays, in my opinion, because actions are more often than not divided per actor. Even then, though, I know that I read a play this last summer that had one actor's actions in another actor's paragraph.
I try to avoid action between character in my VN anyway, because it's not prose and I don't think it should be treated so.

-Nat

I agree with this.

Besides I haven't ever read anything (a VN, book, etc.) that follows this rule.

dmasterxd wrote:

SinSisters wrote:Hmm, interesting post, though not sure I would take it all as a strict guideline... Nat

I agree with this.

Besides I haven't ever read anything (a VN, book, etc.) that follows this rule.

LOL! Then you are not reading the same books I am, but that's fine. How you write is your choice to make -- until you get an editor.