Lemma Soft Forums

This thread is mainly sparked by this one: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... =4&t=28780

Anyways, somewhere in that thread there is some mentions about identifying as part of the LGBTQIA+ community but not being "in touch" with it, i.e. not attending events, not knowing some of the jokes or slang, etc.
I'm currently writing a GxG VN, and it is definitely targeted towards a feminine audience rather than a masculine audience. From the perspective at which it is being written, the girls in the VN are friends. But sooner or later I'll have to start writing those romantic parts and I want to make sure I'm doing it right.

However, when it comes down to it, I don't really know much about queer romances and relationships. I do identify as part of the LGBTQIA+ community, and if you wanna get specific, I'm somewhere along the line of pansexual/demiromantic and I'm still in the closet. I have literally no idea about what a queer relationship is actually like.
Of course, I know of the stereotypes that are out there and I've already done a careful job to avoid them, but I don't want my writing to suffer or sound awkward because I don't know anything much.

Anyways, my question is, how can I "properly" write this? I've read plenty of stories of straight romances before, but due to the nature and slight censorship of where I live, it's kind of difficult to come across good queer literature unless I'm reading it online, and what I frequently find online is stereotypical fanfiction. So any suggestions on how to write this better are appreciated, as well as any suggestions of books, VNs, or authors that have a queer theme.

meiri wrote:Anyways, my question is, how can I "properly" write this? I've read plenty of stories of straight romances before, but due to the nature and slight censorship of where I live, it's kind of difficult to come across good queer literature unless I'm reading it online, and what I frequently find online is stereotypical fanfiction. So any suggestions on how to write this better are appreciated, as well as any suggestions of books, VNs, or authors that have a queer theme.

First of all- hello.
For all intensive purposes I call myself Pacermist, and I identify as a bisexual female.

While I don't feel as though I am actually qualified to speak about this topic considering my own gg relationships have been somewhat abysmal, I don't expect a gay romance to be any different to what others would consider a 'straight' one.

Excuse me while I shamelessly abuse the bold print.

There is no difference in feeling between gay and straight love.

I can love a girl with just as much affection and gusto as I can love a male. It's just more socially acceptable for me to be with a guy.

Of course, I'm not saying that you should just write a straight romance and substitute the parts.
Considering the day and age, there are still places where 'gayness' makes a difference portrayal, initial self-confidence, closet stories- really dusty sometimes.... But while I say that, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sex.
Writing a romance for the queers of the internet doesn't necessarily mean becoming a fully-fledged gayling and attending all the parades. It's more focused on the reality.

Let me stress that a little.
You don't need to make all of your characters exceedingly gay, nor do they have to be extreme activists, or elite, private-school girls- or anything, really.

If you want realism, try beginning with projecting the character of someone you know.
Can you keep their personality the same, their affections, and actions, while allowing them to successfully have romance with the same gender? Well, typically, the answer is yes.
More often than not- the reason there is even a reason to 'come out of the closet'- is because it's exceedingly simple for absolutely no-one to realise you are anything more than straight.

None of my friends could ever tell I was "inclined" to the either gender, and I don't think a good story is one that makes things obvious.
You should never spell things out for a reader, because half of the beauty of being 'gay' is the discovery.

And another point is that you don't really need to understand 'gay' love, because love is love, and love cannot be defined within mortal bounds.
There are so many different people, and so many different loves- why cut them down and try to answer the age-old question

"What is love? dun dun dun dun-dun dun dun..."

Basically what I'm saying is that you don't need anyone to tell you how to write good gay romance.
Write the romance you want to, with the characters you want. Don't try to 'fit in' with normal stereotypes, don't try to make everyone happy.
People will appreciate individuality, and above all else- a true projection of romance.

Life is not filled with sunshine,
Nor perpetually clouded in night.
But what makes this life worth living,
Is another to share with your life.

Yes I just tried to use poetry to express my point.Yes it was lame.

When you go forth to create your masterpiece, just remember.

You are not writing a world where two women love each-other.
You are writing about a world where two souls come to find each-other compatible, and decide to make a lasting decision to love each-other, regardless of gender, struggles, differences and public opinion.

Innocence is just as applicable to gays as any straights.
And that's the beauty of love.

I agree with the above. Portraying the romance between two girls as different would only kinda hurt your story, it would be like giving into the fact that the romance has to be in some way different to a het romance, and concluding that it's not 'normal'. Personally, as a person who reads and plays mostly GxG works, I wouldn't like that.

It should be written as you'd write any normal romance regardless of gender - love is love.

About the whole avoiding stereotypes thing, what exactly do mean by that? What kind of stereotypes are you referring to?
I think there are definitely some stereotypes that work well in GxG, but also ones that you should absolutely stay away from at all cost lest you want to ruin your story - scissoring (if I had a nickle...); the S&M (if I had a nickle...); "I'm rotten / disgusting" (if I had a nickle...); a transient romance (if I had a nickle...); unnecessary love triangle (if I had a nickle...), the goddamn childhood friend who randomly pops up out of nowhere cliche (if I had a nickle...).

I think you can see where I'm going with this^

Just make it as normal as you can, don't go out of your way to make it different because It's a GxG romance.

-Ren- wrote:I agree with the above. Portraying the romance between two girls as different would only kinda hurt your story, it would be like giving into the fact that the romance has to be in some way different to a het romance, and concluding that it's not 'normal'. Personally, as a person who reads and plays mostly GxG works, I wouldn't like that.

It should be written as you'd write any normal romance regardless of gender - love is love.

...

Just make it as normal as you can, don't go out of your way to make it different because It's a GxG romance.

I actually disagree with this sentiment. I don't think same-sex love is just heterosexual love painted lavender. For me, portraying gay people or gay romance as if it were straight romance but with different parts is a marker of not-goodness. It is like saying that women are just men with boobs. Or black people are just white people with a different color. It centers the majority position and erases the specificity of experience that comes from living as non-majority person.

So here are some examples of ways that GxG romance is not the same as het romance.
Two women together (unless one of them is a pre-op transwoman) are not going to have to worry about getting pregnant while having sex. That will make GxG romance different than straight romance.
In some countries GxG sex is illegal. That will make GxG romance different than straight romance.
In many countries there is a sexual double standard that sees men's sexuality as predatory and taking (and places positive value on that), and sees women's sexuality as passive and her job as to not give in to male sexual pressure. There is a power imbalance in these positions. Lesbians, by nature of being same sex, don't have to deal with those power imbalances.
Heterosexual people often assume that any person of the opposite sex is sexually available to them...homosexual people cannot assume that any person of the same sex is sexually available to them. That will make GxG romance different than straight romance.
Queer people, by nature of having a non-majority sexual identity, have often (not alway, but often) had to unlearn a number of societal attitudes about sex and gender. (Straight people can also unlearn these attitudes, but it doesn't happen as often) Stopping the internalization of a number of sexist and heterosexist attitudes also makes GxG romance different than straight romance.

I'm not saying that queer romance isn't normal...but it isn't the same, either. And it isn't all doom and gloom and misery either! Studies have shown than women having sex with women have more orgasms than women having sex with men.

What I meant in my other post about culture (which of course varies by place and time), is that a lesbian is not just a straight woman who kisses women. A black person is not just a white person with more melanin. We are profoundly affected by our experiences. Writing queer people as if being queer doesn't actually mean anything...that doesn't lead to very believable queer people, in my opinion.

So it you want to write something you have no experience in? I recommend research. In this case read a lot of fiction and non-fiction by lesbians. Including some with romance. And not online slash-fic, but real lesbian literature. You say you can't get access to depictions of GxG romance where you live--because of censorship. (Which is another way in which GxG romance is different than straight romance). Can you have queer books in your home, or is it unsafe for you to have GxG themed books where you live because of your family (which is another way in which GxG romance is different than straight romance)? If you can have queer books in your home, I can recommend some classics to check out and read:

Rubyfruit Jungle
Bastard out of Carolina
The Color Purple
Tipping the Velvet
Stone Butch Blues
Oranges are not the Only Fruit
Fingersmith
Daughters of a Coral Dawn (this is really 1970s lesbian feminist separatist, but interesting to read to see the mindset)

There was an anthology Common Lives/Lesbian Lives that was published in the 80s and 90s that was very good...you can find some issues on amazon.

Non-fiction I still have a soft spot in my heart for Lilian Faderman's Odd Girls and Twilight Lovers--which is very good, but has the problem a lot of earlier lesbian scholarship has in that it claims as lesbian some people who would be better described as either bisexual or transmen. But the book is good.

If you cannot buy or have things in your home that affirm GxG love and experiences and history...think about how profoundly different that makes GxG romance than heterosexual romance.

I'd agree with trooper6 that treating GxG romance like hetero romance is the wrong approach, and I agree with all the suggestions they've made on the topic. Since they've approached things from an academic/objective perspective, I'm gonna take a slightly different tactic and offer some personal examples of how being a gay woman affects my relationships. These aren't gonna be universally applicable, but I think some lived insight could be handy, to show how trooper6's theoretical phrasing of things can apply in reality.

-I have to consider any affection I show to my partners in public. Obviously, public displays of affection are discouraged to some degree for anyone-- but a lesbian couple is going to be way more hesitant to show even very chaste signs of affection. My last relationship was with a nonbinary person, but when they were presenting female when we first started dating/before they came out, we were very anxious about holding hands or hugging each other in certain areas. Are your characters in an artsy district? Then they'll probably feel more comfortable about showing affection, since arts districts tend to be more LGBT-friendly. Are they in a conservative suburban neighbourhood? They'll likely be more restrained to avoid harassment.

-I have to consider where and how I discuss my relationships. Depending on employment, schooling, family scenarios, etc... a relationship between two woman will sometimes be downplayed to avoid any outside commentary. At university, I'm happy to discuss my relationships openly, since younger people tend to be more accepting. If I'm at work, I might mention them to certain coworkers, but others might not hear about them. In a gay relationship, you're usually a lot more cautious about discussing your romance with people. There was a girl in one of my papers this semester who started talking to me about her boyfriend within about ten seconds of meeting me. I'd never do that about a girlfriend unless I knew I was in a queer-friendly space, not even necessarily out of fear/anxiety-- sometimes, you just can't be bothered risking the 'tell me about lesbianism' question line. It gets tiring.

-Power imbalances, briefly touched on above, while not something that affects lesbian couples the exact same way they affect straight couples, can come into play in unique ways. For example, a woman who presents in somewhat masculine ways (a butch lesbian or whatever other terms you might wanna throw at this) might have different romantic expectations directed at her than a feminine presenting woman. For instance, I often crossplay (cosplay as men), and I've met a couple of my prior girlfriends while crossplaying. Because they met me effectively in drag, and because I have a somewhat masculine fashion sense in my daily life, I've had women assume I'm going to take a masculine role in a relationship with them despite us both being the same gender. I can't live up to this expectation-- I'm apologetic to a fault and quite sensitive, all told-- which causes friction between us since they've assumed a different dynamic coming into things. Gender imbalance might not be an issue in gay relationships, but masc/femme aesthetics/expectations can be.

-As said, you don't just assume people are available to you, and without a clear confirmation that you're interested in someone gay/bi there can be more of a dance asking someone out. Even with that confirmation, it can be much harder! There's a bi girl I've been wanting to ask out for a while, but her parents have previously said they're afraid of their kids turning out gay, etc etc. It's entirely her business, but knowing that kind of thing-- knowing her parents would disapprove of me if she did agree to us going out-- stops me from going through with it, because I'm afraid of going through that particular set of issues. Even if both people involved are gay and available, there might be external pressures that stop a relationship happening.

Those are the first few things that've come to mind! I'm a bit stuck for other things to add at the moment, but hopefully they're a bit of a start. : )

Before I respond, I did incidentally leave out a lil' detail. The game I'm making actually doesn't have any 18+ content in it, just for future reference to anyone else who responds to this topic.

--

I'm pretty glad I received responses from both points of view, because it definitely helped me to see a little better from both sides.

-Ren- wrote: About the whole avoiding stereotypes thing, what exactly do mean by that? What kind of stereotypes are you referring to?
I think there are definitely some stereotypes that work well in GxG, but also ones that you should absolutely stay away from at all cost lest you want to ruin your story - scissoring (if I had a nickle...); the S&M (if I had a nickle...); "I'm rotten / disgusting" (if I had a nickle...); a transient romance (if I had a nickle...); unnecessary love triangle (if I had a nickle...), the goddamn childhood friend who randomly pops up out of nowhere cliche (if I had a nickle...).

When I say avoiding stereotypes I DEFINITELY mean all the things that you've mention above. I'm also just trying to avoid general stereotypes of females.

trooper6 wrote:. Can you have queer books in your home, or is it unsafe for you to have GxG themed books where you live because of your family (which is another way in which GxG romance is different than straight romance)? If you can have queer books in your home, I can recommend some classics to check out and read:

Rubyfruit Jungle
Bastard out of Carolina
The Color Purple
Tipping the Velvet
Stone Butch Blues
Oranges are not the Only Fruit
Fingersmith
Daughters of a Coral Dawn (this is really 1970s lesbian feminist separatist, but interesting to read to see the mindset)

I can have them in my home, it's just that I happen to live in a pretty conservative area, so finding queer books just requires a lot more searching as they aren't commonly sold in stores. Thanks, I'll definitely make it a point to search for these (as classics will probably be easier to find anyways.)

kitsubasa wrote:I'd agree with trooper6 that treating GxG romance like hetero romance is the wrong approach, and I agree with all the suggestions they've made on the topic. Since they've approached things from an academic/objective perspective, I'm gonna take a slightly different tactic and offer some personal examples of how being a gay woman affects my relationships. These aren't gonna be universally applicable, but I think some lived insight could be handy, to show how trooper6's theoretical phrasing of things can apply in reality.

[...]

Those are the first few things that've come to mind! I'm a bit stuck for other things to add at the moment, but hopefully they're a bit of a start. : )

Thank you so much for taking the time to write that out! Although you said it isn't universal, it will definitely be helpful in helping me determine how het and queer romances are different.

I think this is an interesting topic, so I thought I'd chime in.

So, from my perspective, writing a GxG romance without thinking of how gay people are considered in that area, and without thinking of them as gay people, who have had different experiences because of that, etc. is a recipe for a lesbian story written for men. Most yuri that I have read is pretty clearly written for men, and fetishizes lesbian relationships. (Hey, I still enjoy it sometimes, but I think it would be cooler if they were a little more person and a little less male fantasy. That's just me though, there are a lot of guys who enjoy their male fantasies. I have no problem with this as long as that isn't all or most of what is out there. It's just that right now that is most of what's out there...)

I think reading other well written queer stories is a good idea. Here are some that I've liked!

Penny & Aggie, a slow paced webcomic about a rivalry turned loving partnership. The romance takes a long time to build up, which may bother some people, but I loved it.

http://www.pennyandaggie.com/

Honey & Honey, a manga written by a lesbian about lesbians and trans men in Japan. I found this really interesting because it's hard to find good material on the actual gay communities in Japan, since most Japanese work on the subject is yuri/yaoi/BL etc. generally aimed at straight audiences.

http://mangafox.me/manga/honey_honey/

Curvy, a fantastical story about a girl from "Boring World" who falls in love with and marries a princess from "Candy World" and gets caught up in a cosmic adventure. Lighthearted and funny. Very NSFW!

http://www.c.urvy.org/?date=20080614

DAR: A Super Girly Top Secret Comic Diary, a webcomic depicting the author's life. The author identifies as a lesbian in the comic, has many relationships with women, and since it's autobiographical it should be a good resource. It's a diary not a story, so beware of lots of off topic stuff and lack of coherent storyline.

http://www.darcomic.com/2004/01/01/whatthefuck/

Chaos Life, comic made by a wonderful couple, one self identified lesbian and one agender identified person. They are pretty great, and talk a lot about things they have to deal with in their relationship, and how others see their relationship. Also somewhat autobiographical and can be random.

http://chaoslife.findchaos.com/solemn-solidarity

Girrrly, a funny superhero kinda comic about a superhero and her sidekick. They fall in love. Really whacky and random. Nooot sure how realistic it depicts lesbian relationships but it is fun! Very NSFW!

http://girlyyy.com/go/1

Khaos Komix, webcomic written by a queer person. The story line follows a group of friends, and two stories center on a lesbian relationship-- Amber's story and Nay's story. You can click on them in the right side bar. I think there might have been some NSFW stuff in there? Definitely not as blatant as the others I warned for, but fair warning just in case.

http://www.khaoskomix.com/komix/steves-story-cover

Kimchi Cuddles, more about polyamorous relationships, but has female same sex relationships in it.

http://kimchicuddles.com/

QUILTBAG, written by the same author as Penny & Aggie, but it got cancelled later on. Follows the stories of a few queer side characters from P&A as they go through college.

http://quiltbag.keenspot.com/d/20111018.html


Aaand, I think that's about all the free webcomics I can come up with. Hope some of them help! Here are some other random resources I found, but I haven't read them all myself so I don't know about any NSFW content. They're articles, though, so probably nothing graphic will show up on your screen without warning.

Lesbian Life website, with a section for telling stories on how people met their lovers/wives.

http://lesbianlife.about.com/u/sty/lesb ... HowYouMet/

Not only lesbians, but five gay couples share their love stories:

http://www.refinery29.com/chicago-couples#slide

Another list of gay couples sharing their love stories, not lesbian only:

http://www.out.com/out-exclusives/love- ... es#slide-1

Collection of lesbians talking about their first same sex experiences:

http://dating.lovetoknow.com/First_Time_Lesbian_Stories

One lesbian shares her love story in detail:

http://www.allthingsqueer.co.za/archive ... story.html

You can also just google looking for first hand accounts from lesbians, which is what I did here. Good luck!

I would recommend reading anything by Audre Lorde to give you a real serious look at what a lesbian relationship is like for a black woman. Powerful writing. Here's a pdf. I'd start with the Sister Outsider essays.

I second the Audrey Lorde recommendation!

A queer thread without mentioning the epic 6 hour long Angels in America? Blasphemy!

Also try Middlesex.