So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

Questions, skill improvement, and respectful critique involving game writing.
Message
Author
User avatar
Godline
Veteran
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:26 am
Completed: numerous
Tumblr: godlinegames
Deviantart: godline-games
itch: godline
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#31 Post by Godline » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:41 pm

RotGtIE wrote: But that's just me, and I'm the kind of guy who would rather read someone's two-hundred page forum spam on why he thinks my mother is a whore than two empty lines of praise from someone who wants to tell me that he thinks my mother is a classy lady.
LMAO. If we could 'like' posts, I would 'like' yours for that. :)

User avatar
ColaCat
Veteran
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 8:31 am
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#32 Post by ColaCat » Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:42 pm

OokamiKasumi wrote:Thank you, sweety!
-- Hopefully, you found it useful too.
I definitely did! It's odd (or not) how I didn't even realise these points until I read this post. I'm glad to have had my eyes opened, though!
PyTom wrote:If we stickied every good post, we'd have a forum full of stickies - and no actually discussion.
Very true. I guess I've just got to hope that loads of people read it all!
Image

User avatar
OokamiKasumi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:53 am
Completed: 14 games released -- and Counting.
Organization: DarkErotica Games
Deviantart: OokamiKasumi
Location: NC, USA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#33 Post by OokamiKasumi » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:51 pm

ColaCat wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote:Thank you, sweety!
-- Hopefully, you found it useful too.
I definitely did! It's odd (or not) how I didn't even realise these points until I read this post. I'm glad to have had my eyes opened, though!
Sometimes the obvious goes right past our eyes. It's like when you're looking for the aspirin in the medicine cabinet and it's right there on the middle shelf, but your eyes just don't see it.

Then someone grumpy comes along to take it off the shelf then shove it in your hand. "It's right here!"
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

User avatar
ColaCat
Veteran
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat May 24, 2014 8:31 am
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#34 Post by ColaCat » Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:47 am

OokamiKasumi wrote:
ColaCat wrote:
OokamiKasumi wrote:Thank you, sweety!
-- Hopefully, you found it useful too.
I definitely did! It's odd (or not) how I didn't even realise these points until I read this post. I'm glad to have had my eyes opened, though!
Sometimes the obvious goes right past our eyes. It's like when you're looking for the aspirin in the medicine cabinet and it's right there on the middle shelf, but your eyes just don't see it.

Then someone grumpy comes along to take it off the shelf then shove it in your hand. "It's right here!"

Oh, gosh. I shouldn't be able to relate to this so much...XD

Or, one that constantly infuriates me, when you spend about a decade looking around the house for one particular item, then it turns out it was in your pocket/ right next to you on the sofa. I've even had it that the item was in my hand and I still didn't realise it was there. >_<

There's probably some sciency reason for it all. Or at least, that's what I'm hoping...
Image

User avatar
Shoko
Regular
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:45 pm
Soundcloud: shokomusic
Location: New York
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#35 Post by Shoko » Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:33 am

OokamiKasumi wrote:
So you want a Critique?
Yup.
OokamiKasumi wrote: Do you even know what a Critique actually is?
cri·tique
kriˈtēk/
noun: critique; plural noun: critiques
1. a detailed analysis and assessment of something, especially a literary, philosophical, or political theory.
synonyms: analysis, evaluation, assessment, appraisal, appreciation, criticism, review, study, commentary, exposition, exegesis
"a critique of North American culture"

verb: critique; 3rd person present: critiques; past tense: critiqued; past participle: critiqued; gerund or present participle: critiquing
1. evaluate (a theory or practice) in a detailed and analytical way.
"the authors critique the methods and practices used in the research"
THINK: Are you actually looking for a Critique; a detailed analysis of your work, or are you really looking for something else, but that's the word everyone else is using so you're using it too?
Uh, you're making a mistake if you think the dictionary definition takes precedence over how the word is actually used in society. It's the other way around. That's the reason why 'literally' now has the definition of extreme emphasis in addition to actually meaning 'literally'. The word literally expanded it's meaning due to how society used it.

In this sense I doubt Webster is going to change it's definition for vague internet usage, but it appears to me 'critique' means 'any subjective opinion you have about my work' when used online.
Things you might really be looking for:
-- "Can you check my sentence structure and look for typos?"
-- "Are my characters interesting enough to keep reading?"
-- "Is this fight scene or love scene confusing? Did I describe it well enough that you can see what's going on clearly in your imagination?"
-- "Does this story drag? Is it boring to you?"
-- "Have I used too much narrative and exposition? What should I trim out?"
-- "Should I use additional characters to tell this story, or stick with what I have?"
-- "Should I use more description in this scene, or more dialog?"
-- "Do you like this Main Character, or should I use someone different?"
-- "Should I keep writing this or scrap the whole thing?"
-- "Is my dialog entertaining enough to keep you interested?"
-- "Did I do good this time? Is this an improvement on my last work?"
Actually, I'm looking for an opinion on all of these things (including things I haven't thought of), which is the whole point of asking for a critique.
Once you know what you're really looking for, you then need to know
How to ASK for what you actually Want.
Here are some examples of how you DON'T do it.
-- "Will you gimme a critique?"
-- "Can you take a look at my story?"
-- "Can you give me an honest opinion of my story?"
-- "Can you tell me if this is any good?"

None of these questions will get you what you're after so Stop Asking Them.
So if I ask someone to give me their honest opinion and they give it, I didn't get want I asked for? Sounds like the opposite.
Instead:
Be Direct and ask point-blank for what you actually Want.
Don't play around. Ask for what you want in clear, simple English. Being indirect or too broad in your request for help with your work will not only Not get you want you really want, it frustrates the hell out of those of us that want to help you. How are we supposed to assist you when we don't know what kind of assistance you're looking for?
How are you supposed to help? How about by being a good reviewer? By knowing how to well-articulate why you think something is poorly written and how you think it can be improved? By being clear that the subjective opinion of a random internet reviewer is not the end-all, be-all of a work's quality? Determining what kind of critique to give i.e what is relevant and irrelevant to mention is the critic's onus, not the writer's.
You want a Character Interaction check? ASK for one.
You want a Plotting check? ASK for one.
You want a Grammar and Typo check? ASK for one.
You want an Action Scene Description check? ASK for one.
You want to know if a Scene is boring? ASK if it's boring.
You want to know if you have enough info in your info-dump exposition, or if you have too much? Ask exactly that.
You want all of the above? List the entire set of questions and ASK for those things to be checked.
And what if I want to know all the above? Do I really have to painstakingly write out every possible weakness in my writing to "inform" my critics what I want to be critiqued?
And just for the record:
Specify if this is a Creative Writing piece
or something you intend for Professional Publication.
We have experienced experts in Both on this board, and the advice from the Professionals such as myself, ("Follow these rules,") tends to be diametrically opposed to the Creative writers, ("There are no rules!") If you want to avoid a fight breaking out between them, specify the type of writing advice you're looking for. Seriously.
I don't see why the creative writers would suddenly give up their motto of "no rules!" just cause it's being published, but OK.
So...!
Don't just throw your writing at us and ask for a Critique!
You mean like how every other art form does?
ASK for Precisely what you Want.[/center]
This way, those of us experienced enough to offer you solid advice can give you the solid advice you want.
Because you're apparently incapable of giving me that advice on your own? :?
And for God's sake...
Don't whine about it or Attack those of us that answer you!
No one wants to help someone that bites the hand that gives them what they asked for. If you're not mature enough to gracefully accept that you're going to hear things you may not like about your work, then you're not mature enough to ask for assistance from those of us that actually know what the hell we're doing.
Agreed.
There are tons of people on this forum alone that are damned good at writing, but won't say a word because they've been bitten one too many times when all they did was try to help -- myself included.
That's the actual problem here: people who don't know to take criticism. I don't think your guide really changes anything unless the person specifically writes they don't want critique for anything other than what they specified (which could easily get in the way of describing what was wrong with the parts they did want critique on).
Suggestion for the Shy people that want to offer help:
-- Private Message (PM) the person you want to help and ASK if they're interested in hearing what you want to say. If they say "Sure!" PM your analysis of their work. If your analysis is particularly long and detailed, in other words; it's going to take a lot of rewriting to get their work straight, don't expect a reply for at least a week. It takes about that long for the impact to wear off. Remember, it always hurts when someone points out something you got wrong.

Also, don't expect them to follow your advice immediately. Nine times out of ten they will wait to see if anyone else says the same thing -- or offers an easier solution. If your analysis is supported by others the next stage is to try out your advice and see if it actually works for them. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. All you can do is offer. It's up to them to decide if they want to take your advice or not, so don't freak out if they say, "Thanks, but I wanna try something else."
Good advice!
One more thing...

Members of the Peanut Gallery? Stay the hell OUT!
Don't get in the way of someone trying to help someone else. If you don't like the advice offered, it's fine to offer your own take on the situation -- that's actually Helpful. However, don't attack the other people offering advice. That's not just Rude, it's extremely Unhelpful to the person who posted. So what if it doesn't agree with what you believe to be true? It's up to the person who Asked for said advice to decide if they want to take the advice offered, or not -- not You, so Butt-Out!
[/rant]
Also good advice!
You may commence with the bitching. ♥
If by "bitching" you mean "critiquing your critique guide," then I believe I have. :)

User avatar
OokamiKasumi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:53 am
Completed: 14 games released -- and Counting.
Organization: DarkErotica Games
Deviantart: OokamiKasumi
Location: NC, USA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#36 Post by OokamiKasumi » Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:30 pm

Shoko wrote:Uh, you're making a mistake if you think the dictionary definition takes precedence over how the word is actually used in society. It's the other way around. That's the reason why 'literally' now has the definition of extreme emphasis in addition to actually meaning 'literally'. The word literally expanded it's meaning due to how society used it.
Social usage of a word, whether that word is 'critique' or 'literally' --which includes mistranslations to and from other languages-- will not change a word's actual definition, especially when used among among professionals. To quote the local cops, "Ignorance is not an excuse." All it does is prove to those of us that do know and use a word's proper definition that someone's education is sorely lacking.
Shoko wrote:... it appears to me 'critique' means 'any subjective opinion you have about my work' when used online.
That's the definition of a beta-reading, not a critique. Beta-readings are 'subjective opinions' not 'a detailed analysis and assessment'.
Wikipedia wrote: An alpha reader or beta reader (also spelled alphareader / betareader, or shortened to alpha / beta), also pre-reader or critiquer, is a non-professional reader who reads a written work, generally fiction, with the intent of looking over the material to find and improve elements such as grammar and spelling, as well as suggestions to improve the story, its characters, or its setting. Beta reading is typically done before the story is released for public consumption.[1] Beta readers are not explicitly proofreaders or editors, but can serve in that context.

Elements highlighted by beta readers encompass things such as plot holes, problems with continuity, characterisation or believability; in fiction and non-fiction, the beta might also assist the author with fact-checking.[2]
Shoko wrote:Actually, I'm looking for an opinion on all of these things (including things I haven't thought of), which is the whole point of asking for a critique.
Then you are asking for a Beta-Reading, not a critique, so if you get a critique instead, you did Not get what you actually wanted -- which is the whole point of this essay. ♥
Shoko wrote:So, if I ask someone to give me their honest opinion and they give it, I didn't get want I asked for?
Correct! If you ask for a Critique and get a Beta-Reading, you definitely did not get the Critique you asked for. Also, if you ask for a Beta-Reading and get a Line-Edit (a line-by-line spelling and grammar check,) you definitely did Not get what you asked for.
Shoko wrote:How are you supposed to help? How about by being a good reviewer?
A Review; a formal assessment or examination of something with the possibility or intention of instituting change if necessary is not a Critique either; 'a detailed analysis and assessment'.
re·view
rəˈvyo͞o/

noun: review; plural noun: reviews
1. a formal assessment or examination of something with the possibility or intention of instituting change if necessary.
"a comprehensive review of defense policy"
synonyms: analysis, evaluation, assessment, appraisal, examination, investigation, inquiry, probe, inspection, study
"the council undertook a review"

verb: review; 3rd person present: reviews; past tense: reviewed; past participle: reviewed; gerund or present participle: reviewing
1. examine or assess (something) formally with the possibility or intention of instituting change if necessary.
"the company's safety procedures are being reviewed"
synonyms: remember, recall, reflect on, think through, go over in one's mind, look back on
"he reviewed the day"
Shoko wrote:How are you supposed to help? ...By knowing how to well-articulate why you think something is poorly written and how you think it can be improved?
Oh, so now you want only those who can write well to respond to your requests for critiques, reviews, and beta-readings?
-- There are a few professional writers on this board, but there aren't many and we are regularly (and incessantly,) asked for critiques, reviews, and beta-readings; things none of us have the time to do because we have our own writing to work on. However, it certainly can't hurt to ask one of us directly through a PM -- IF you know who we are. ♥
Shoko wrote:How are you supposed to help? ...By being clear that the subjective opinion of a random internet reviewer is not the end-all, be-all of a work's quality?
Oh, so now you want us to add a DISCLAIMER to the hours we spent analyzing a work?
Shoko wrote:Determining what kind of critique to give i.e what is relevant and irrelevant to mention is the critic's onus, not the writer's.
On this, I disagree -- strongly. If the writer wants something specific checked for quality and readability it's the Writer's responsibility to Ask --and ask Clearly-- for what they want. If the Critique writer, Reviewer, or Beta Reader has to GUESS what the writer is looking for, then what they choose to analyze is entirely up to the one doing all the work.
Shoko wrote:
...You want all of the above? List the entire set of questions and ASK for those things to be checked.
And what if I want to know all the above? Do I really have to painstakingly write out every possible weakness in my writing to "inform" my critics what I want to be critiqued?

Yes, please. Knowing exactly what you want from us would be extremely helpful to those of us about to spend hours, if not days, examining a work that is Not Ours. We don't like to waste our time any more than you do.
Shoko wrote:I don't see why the creative writers would suddenly give up their motto of "no rules!" just cause it's being published, but OK.
That was my point. Creative Writers won't give up their motto of 'No Rules!' which is why they get into fights with those who offer advice based on publishing house rules. If you clearly state that something is meant for publication, the creative writers are more likely to save their advice for those writing to be creative. The reverse is also true. The professional writers on this list are well aware that the creative writers don't appreciate our 'rules' so we tend to keep quiet and let the creative writers answer instead -- IF we know that Creative Writing advice is what is being requested.
Shoko wrote:
Don't just throw your writing at us and ask for a Critique!
You mean like how every other art form does?
Correct. :)
-- Just because your friends are jumping off a bridge does that mean you should too?
Shoko wrote:
ASK for Precisely what you Want. This way, those of us experienced enough to offer you solid advice can give you the solid advice you want.
Because you're apparently incapable of giving me that advice on your own? :?
Because we don't like wasting hours of our time analyzing what someone doesn't want. It's unproductive, and annoying to those of us who are taking time out of our day, and away from our own work, to do so.
Shoko wrote:
There are tons of people on this forum alone that are damned good at writing, but won't say a word because they've been bitten one too many times when all they did was try to help -- myself included.
That's the actual problem here: people who don't know to take criticism.
Actually, the problem I am addressing in this essay is how to ASK for a critique. If you want to write an essay on what to do once they get one, be my guest!
Shoko wrote:I don't think your guide really changes anything unless the person specifically writes they don't want critique for anything other than what they specified...
Ah, but being specific in their critique requests IS the focus of this essay, so if they Do then I have accomplished the goal of the essay.
Shoko wrote:...[being specific] could easily get in the way of describing what was wrong with the parts they did want critique on.
So what? If those writing a critique see a glaring mistake, but that's not what the writer asked for, the one writing the critique can either volunteer the information or allow the writer to continue with what the writer clearly feels is Not a mistake. A critique writer --especially if they're an amateur writer volunteering their time and effort-- has no obligation to point out every little thing, unless of course, they've been asked specifically to look at that particular point. If they're being paid for an in-depth assessment then Yes, they are obligated to go into exquisite detail on all they can find.
Shoko wrote:If by "bitching" you mean "critiquing your critique guide," then I believe I have. :)
Actually, what you wrote was a Review. LOL!
-- Either way, I'm glad you found some of my points agreeable, even though some of our definitions clearly don't agree.
Last edited by OokamiKasumi on Sat Feb 21, 2015 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

User avatar
Ernestalice15
Regular
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:36 am
Tumblr: ernestalice15
Deviantart: Ernestalice15
Location: Somewhere
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#37 Post by Ernestalice15 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:31 am

For me, Critiques, Proofreading, Beta-Reading, they serve one similar purpose, to know what others think about what you have created. Are they subjective? Yes, they are. Even with or without analysis, I think they are still subjective. But, no matter how harsh they say it, they are just giving opinion and they have the right to do it, the same as the writer has the right whether to follow the reader's opinion or not. The thing is, some writers are not just good enough to accept those, and even try to prove that the reader's opinion is wrong, or say any possible excuses that will result in them not changing anything at all on what they write. Once again, it's really the writer's right, but what's the whole point of asking for ideas or opinion, if in the end they won't change anything.

Maybe Critiques have more analysis and time to do, but in my perspective, reading and thinking what pros and cons in the story, arranging words so that they are easy to understand and not that harsh, even though it's only a beta-reading, it will also take your time. And nothing will change after that? Such a waste of time for me.

Let me give some of my experiences. Someone asked about how to make something better. People answered and I think they gave many good opinions. But, the asker just replied with excuses, reasons of why s/he won't do what those people advised him/her to do. The result was, no improvement, clearly. My friend's friend asked for the product s/he made, how was it, and when people gave negative comment, s/he deleted the comment. So, what's the point of asking people if you can't accept what they would say about it?

Perhaps, that's one of the reasons why this topic existed. :D
Free but busy Amateur Illustrator, Amateur Writer, Japanese Translator, and Mobile Game Developer.

You can visit my Deviant Art here : http://ernestalice15.deviantart.com/
And my twitter : @Ernestalice15
And tumblr : http://ernestalice15.tumblr.com/

"May good day always comes to you, and even not so, remember that good day can come to you anytime in the future"

dmasterxd
Regular
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:05 pm
Completed: Mage Wars
Projects: Falling Star
Organization: Star Guide
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#38 Post by dmasterxd » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:58 pm

OokamiKasumi wrote:
Godline wrote:Haha. :) This should almost be a stickied post.
LOL! It'll never happen.
-- People generally don't like reminders that makes them feel bad -- especially when it's True.
Godline wrote:People don't normally know what they're asking for.
I have no idea why it's so damned hard to just point-blank Ask for what you want --and what you don't want-- but a lot of people have a hard time doing it. Dancing around the subject just wastes everyone's time and generates frustration.
Godline wrote:I know that usually when people ask for critiques they don't want the honest truth, so I normally don't bother commenting at all. I try to put a positive spin on critiques, but you're always going to have to state the negative.
Jeeze...! If they Don't want people to point out where they screwed up, they shouldn't ASK people to critique their work!

*Sigh...* I still offer advice despite all the flack I get because even though there are those who will scream their heads off about it, ("There are no rules to writing!") there are those that pay attention and actually Use my advice too. I have the 'thank you' PMs to prove it.
Godline wrote:What's even worse though is when you OFFER to make someone's writing better to help them out and they want none of it. They just want to do it their own way, even if it sucks.
That's EGO. Theirs, specifically. Those are the type that think good grades in high school English are enough to write a story. *rolls eyes*

Here's a tip: A quick check of the writer's Age will tell you ahead of time whether they're serious about wanting advice or not. Namely, if they're under 25, they're probably going to fight you every step of the way because they have yet to realize there are people out there that know more than they do about anything, never mind something as easy as writing a story. God help you if they're college students! (Those bastards think they're frikken authorities!)

Fan-Fiction writers, on the other hand, are a whole different bowl of kim-chee. They tend to get very serious about wanting real writing advice between 16 and 18. This is because most of them were posting their work publicly from the age of 13. These kids have already gotten a good hard kick in the teeth on what their readers will accept, ("I like your characterization!") and what they won't. ("Use your damned spell-check!") Fan-fiction readers can be Brutal, so they're an excellent way to clean out the attention seeking idiots from the actual writers.
I like your post and agree with most of it. But I'm only 18 and a college student and do everything you said (ask for what I want, what I don't what, etc.) But I never actually gotten what I've asked for quite the opposite actually. But I still take the advice I do get and put it to use. (Although I'm not a fanfiction writer. I do write stories on fictionpress though.) But other than the under 25 and college student thing I agree with everything else you said.

User avatar
OokamiKasumi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:53 am
Completed: 14 games released -- and Counting.
Organization: DarkErotica Games
Deviantart: OokamiKasumi
Location: NC, USA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#39 Post by OokamiKasumi » Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:57 am

Ernestalice15 wrote:For me, Critiques, Proofreading, Beta-Reading, they serve one similar purpose, to know what others think about what you have created. Are they subjective? Yes, they are. Even with or without analysis, I think they are still subjective. But, no matter how harsh they say it, they are just giving opinion and they have the right to do it, the same as the writer has the right whether to follow the reader's opinion or not.
True.
Ernestalice15 wrote:The thing is, some writers are not just good enough to accept those, and even try to prove that the reader's opinion is wrong, or say any possible excuses that will result in them not changing anything at all on what they write.
The technical terms for that is: Whining. You give them what they ask for, but they don't like it, so they Whine about it.
-- This happens most frequently when someone asks for a Critique when what they really wanted was Praise and Compliments.
Ernestalice15 wrote:...what's the whole point of asking for ideas or opinion, if in the end they won't change anything?
THAT is a sure sign that the requester was looking for Praise and Compliments, not assistance in making their work better.
Ernestalice15 wrote:Maybe Critiques have more analysis and [take more] time to do, but in my perspective, reading and thinking what pros and cons in the story, arranging words so that they are easy to understand and not that harsh, even though it's only a beta-reading, it will also take your time. And nothing will change after that? Such a waste of time for me.
Agreed!
-- So why do so many people ask for a critique or a beta-reading when that's Not what they actually Want?
Ernestalice15 wrote:Let me give some of my experiences. Someone asked about how to make something better. People answered and I think they gave many good opinions. But, the asker just replied with excuses, reasons of why s/he won't do what those people advised him/her to do. The result was, no improvement, clearly. My friend's friend asked for the product s/he made, how was it, and when people gave negative comment, s/he deleted the comment. So, what's the point of asking people if you can't accept what they would say about it?
A better question would be:
-- Why are they asking for something they clearly Do Not Want?
Ernestalice15 wrote:Perhaps, that's one of the reasons why this topic existed. :D
It is, indeed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
dmasterxd wrote:I like your post and agree with most of it. But I'm only 18 and a college student and do everything you said (ask for what I want, what I don't what, etc.) But I never actually gotten what I've asked for quite the opposite actually. But I still take the advice I do get and put it to use. (Although I'm not a fanfiction writer. I do write stories on fictionpress though.)
I'm glad you liked most of the essay.
-- If you are asking for exactly what you want checked, or not checked, in your critique requests then there are two possible reasons for why you are not getting the results you've asked for:

1) The recipient did not understand what your request actually meant.
-- This happens when your definitions, (for example; a beta-reading,) didn't match their definitions, (they though you meant a Critique.)
-- This can also happen if they cannot accept what you requested as being exactly what you wanted. Strangely enough, there are people who just cannot give a straight answer to a straight question. I suspect that these people are so used to 'reading between the lines' of every statement that they simply cannot perceive when there isn't anything 'between the lines' to read.
-- Example:
Statement: "The sky is blue."
Response: "Yes, but what do you mean?"

2) The recipient deliberately ignored your request in favor of what they wanted to comment about.
-- That's EGO. Theirs, specifically -- especially if they have more, (or think they have more) writing experience than you do. What they should have done is asked you if you wanted their opinion on --whatever it was they commented on-- before they volunteered their opinion.
dmasterxd wrote:But other than the under 25 and college student thing I agree with everything else you said.
LOL!
-- You may not write fan-fiction, but you do post your fiction publicly for people to Read. This puts you in their category of: being Serious about writing. That means that you definitely don't belong among the average 'under 25' "I know all about this because I learned it in school" crowd.
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

User avatar
Shakezula
Regular
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:01 pm
Organization: Digital Sandbox
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#40 Post by Shakezula » Tue May 26, 2015 1:39 pm

I don't think it's a terrible idea to say, as a person with a valued opinion, can you give me feedback on your overall experience with this and anything else that will make the nearly completed project better. It's how movies are made, when they show them to test audiences. They may ask particular follow up questions to a focus group about particular elements, characters, scenes, but they usually let the audience speak about what they got from the film. Different people will have different experiences and react different ways in the exact same situation. It's a great way to see how something will be received by people who you won't be able to directly get feedback from once the project is released. It's like bug testing, for the creative bits.

I completely understand it's annoying people ask have their story spell checked, though. Nobody else is going to spell check your project for you.

User avatar
OokamiKasumi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:53 am
Completed: 14 games released -- and Counting.
Organization: DarkErotica Games
Deviantart: OokamiKasumi
Location: NC, USA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#41 Post by OokamiKasumi » Wed May 27, 2015 10:26 am

Shakezula wrote:I don't think it's a terrible idea to say, as a person with a valued opinion, "Can you give me feedback on your overall experience with this and anything else that will make the nearly completed project better?"

I'm Not saying that you shouldn't ask for "feedback on your overall experience." I'm saying that when one asks for a critique, "feedback on your overall experience" shouldn't be the ONLY question asked.

Critiques are Time Consuming.
-- Even more so if the one asking for the critique is Not Specific about what they what critiqued.
Shakezula wrote:...test audiences. They may ask particular follow up questions to a focus group about particular elements, characters, scenes, but they usually let the audience speak about what they got from the film.
Precisely! Test audiences for movies get follow up questions to narrow the focus to what the movie creators want to Know so they can adjust said movies before exposing them to a Paying Audience. Professional Game Testers also get a list of questions to answer.

THAT is what I'm asking for: QUESTIONS.
-- It's so much easier to give an analysis if we have Questions to work from.
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

User avatar
Shakezula
Regular
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:01 pm
Organization: Digital Sandbox
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#42 Post by Shakezula » Wed May 27, 2015 12:41 pm

OokamiKasumi wrote:
Shakezula wrote:I don't think it's a terrible idea to say, as a person with a valued opinion, "Can you give me feedback on your overall experience with this and anything else that will make the nearly completed project better?"

I'm Not saying that you shouldn't ask for "feedback on your overall experience." I'm saying that when one asks for a critique, "feedback on your overall experience" shouldn't be the ONLY question asked.

Critiques are Time Consuming.
-- Even more so if the one asking for the critique is Not Specific about what they what critiqued.
Shakezula wrote:...test audiences. They may ask particular follow up questions to a focus group about particular elements, characters, scenes, but they usually let the audience speak about what they got from the film.
Precisely! Test audiences for movies get follow up questions to narrow the focus to what the movie creators want to Know so they can adjust said movies before exposing them to a Paying Audience. Professional Game Testers also get a list of questions to answer.

THAT is what I'm asking for: QUESTIONS.
-- It's so much easier to give an analysis if we have Questions to work from.

Well actually my original point was it's rare there are any specific questions asked, especially not to start to focus group. If there's a glaring inconsistency somewhere you overlooked, people will point it for you themselves. If you ask them for specific things they will start to rewrite perfectly fine ideas based on their own personal preference, and not hone in on what appeared as the most obvious issue to them.

User avatar
trooper6
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3630
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:33 pm
Projects: A Close Shave
Location: Medford, MA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#43 Post by trooper6 » Wed May 27, 2015 1:23 pm

Shakezula wrote:I don't think it's a terrible idea to say, as a person with a valued opinion, "Can you give me feedback on your overall experience with this and anything else that will make the nearly completed project better?"

...

Well actually my original point was it's rare there are any specific questions asked, especially not to start to focus group. If there's a glaring inconsistency somewhere you overlooked, people will point it for you themselves. If you ask them for specific things they will start to rewrite perfectly fine ideas based on their own personal preference, and not hone in on what appeared as the most obvious issue to them.

Asking for "feedback on overall experience," which is an overly broad question, is likely to result in overly broad responses like:
"I thought it sucked!"
"I thought is was great!"

That feedback will not be helpful to you. More specific questions will generate more specific feedback, which is more likely to help you improve your game.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

User avatar
OokamiKasumi
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1775
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:53 am
Completed: 14 games released -- and Counting.
Organization: DarkErotica Games
Deviantart: OokamiKasumi
Location: NC, USA
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#44 Post by OokamiKasumi » Wed May 27, 2015 5:57 pm

Shakezula wrote:Well actually my original point was it's rare there are any specific questions asked...
It is rare, but the smarter ones DO ask specific questions.
Shakezula wrote:If there's a glaring inconsistency somewhere you overlooked, people will point it for you themselves.
If that were True, then Jar Jar Binks would have been removed completely from Star Wars: Phantom Menace before it ever hit the theaters.

Inexperienced writers, and those who Do Not Write Fiction just don't have the basic knowledge to point out some of the more glaring Plotting or Character problems without Questions to point out what to look for. Example: Only those that write fiction can identify a Mary Sue.
Shakezula wrote:If you ask them for specific things they will start to rewrite perfectly fine ideas based on their own personal preference, and not hone in on what appeared as the most obvious issue to them.
Really? I haven't had that problem at all and I use a minimum of four beta-readers per manuscript. No one has ever tried to rewrite any of my work, not even my professional editors.
Ookami Kasumi ~ Purveyor of fine Smut.
Most recent Games Completed: For ALL my completed games visit: DarkErotica Games

"No amount of great animation will save a bad story." -- John Lasseter of Pixar

User avatar
Shakezula
Regular
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 8:01 pm
Organization: Digital Sandbox
Contact:

Re: So, you want a Critique? [Rant]

#45 Post by Shakezula » Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:05 pm

trooper6 wrote:
Shakezula wrote:I don't think it's a terrible idea to say, as a person with a valued opinion, "Can you give me feedback on your overall experience with this and anything else that will make the nearly completed project better?"

...

Well actually my original point was it's rare there are any specific questions asked, especially not to start to focus group. If there's a glaring inconsistency somewhere you overlooked, people will point it for you themselves. If you ask them for specific things they will start to rewrite perfectly fine ideas based on their own personal preference, and not hone in on what appeared as the most obvious issue to them.

Asking for "feedback on overall experience," which is an overly broad question, is likely to result in overly broad responses like:
"I thought it sucked!"
"I thought is was great!"

That feedback will not be helpful to you. More specific questions will generate more specific feedback, which is more likely to help you improve your game.
That would be your responsibility, to ask people who understand what your trying to do, and get the feedback out of them. Ask what they would thing would make the game better, regardless of how good it is now. Or even better yet someone who also writes games, because they know what your looking for.
OokamiKasumi wrote:
Shakezula wrote:Well actually my original point was it's rare there are any specific questions asked...
It is rare, but the smarter ones DO ask specific questions.
Shakezula wrote:If there's a glaring inconsistency somewhere you overlooked, people will point it for you themselves.
If that were True, then Jar Jar Binks would have been removed completely from Star Wars: Phantom Menace before it ever hit the theaters.

Inexperienced writers, and those who Do Not Write Fiction just don't have the basic knowledge to point out some of the more glaring Plotting or Character problems without Questions to point out what to look for. Example: Only those that write fiction can identify a Mary Sue.
Shakezula wrote:If you ask them for specific things they will start to rewrite perfectly fine ideas based on their own personal preference, and not hone in on what appeared as the most obvious issue to them.
Really? I haven't had that problem at all and I use a minimum of four beta-readers per manuscript. No one has ever tried to rewrite any of my work, not even my professional editors.
NO, I'm saying It's not about the writing specifically. It's about things you may have overlooked. For example one feedback point I'd give to a game I just tried out recently is that the narrator character has no defining attributes. I wasn't sure if the who-less dialogue was supposed to be the main character's internal thoughts, or him talking to himself out loud, and moreover I couldn't easily distinguish between that and the actual narration, in certain contexts. That's a very specific thing to ask for feedback on, if you're not focused in on it.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users