Archetyping without Stereotyping

[Sword of Akasha]

Anyway, if it were purely a matter of inert good versus evil, Frodo would have thrown the Ring into the fires of Mount Doom on his own, and wouldn't have needed Gollum to act as a catalyst for its destruction. Galadriel would not have been tempted by it. And Boromir is a decent man on the side of "good," but he also desires the Ring's power. Even Sam is tempted, though he imagines himself as a mighty gardener who could bring life to Mordor instead of thinking of the Ring as a tool of war.

Regardless of intentions of the characters, I think Tolkien still sets it up rather binary function in the ultimate outcome. Power is deemed a seductive force. Technology and imagery of it is aligned with evil such as Saruman's little operation. It doesn't take into the account the real complexities of conflict. Crusades are moral and just only against mindless monsters. However, are they truly the mindless monsters we believe or is that the pretext given to soldiers in order that fulfill their function? There's indeed some wars of necessity, however even there we may find humanity in its complexity. Consider the contradiction that how the act of killing can be 'good' in one context and evil in another. The difficult moral questions are so easily swept under the rug when we have the archetypical kitten eating villains.

Basically I will take orcs (they at least is capabe of minding their own busniness as long as their overlord isn't there) over Martin's 'others' any day.

I have theory regarding that. Thus far in Martin's writing I've see things commonly portrayed as simple elsewhere given great complexity. In Song of Ice and Fire, we're never given a definitive on who built the wall. Was the wall to keep the "Others" out or was it to keep the humans out? The Other's seem to have agency, I'd be disappointed if they were portrayed as the 'ultimate evil'. Time will tell, what the series later entries would revel.

If you want to break steorotypes go for it. The only way to get over compulsion of that certain types have to act in a certain ways in fiction is for somebody to write them differently and somebody has to be the trailblazer.

I think a certain set of stereotypes are so deeply ingrained we'd be up against a marble mountain with toothpicks if we were to fight them without addressing them. Archetype isn't necessarily a stereotype. I think you have them confused. Stereotype is the exaggeration to the extent their humanity or a degree of it is lost. I concur though someone has to be the first to chip at the bedrock of established preconceptions.

I think I'm just very much worried that while I'm creating characters which liken to an archetypical model that they will cross slightly into stereotype or that I will be accused of it. Say if I were to a draw a dwarf character in writing and/or art. Some will demand the full beard while others might want me to shave the stubble already there.

Or another example.

Leaf Wind hails from the east. She'll have some cultural baggage. Traditions in the west would be alien to her and vice versa. Yes, she has her own opinions, however, some of behaviors and ideas are clearly the product of her archetype/culture. I think it would be an offense to cut off part of her. It would be like those photo manipulators in those fashion magazines 'lightening' the skin of ethnic models. However, in demonstrating aspects of Leaf's cultural roots and her methodology of mind, some may cry that it's stereotypical and etc.

[E-night]

Of course you shouldn't cut away a character's cultural background. I don't think anyone had said that.

In fact I read your post you worring that your archetypes didn't live up to their steoreotypical behavoir and you had gained some mixed messeages from some of your friends because of it. (Ie. the dward has to be drunk. The healer has to be gentle.).

The best thing to do when dealing with stereotypes is to be aware of them. A lot of all kind of tropes are not used conscious after all. They are just ingrained in the way we think story telling.

If you are dealing wiht a specific archetype research what stereotypes it usually gives birth to and then you can make a conscious decision of what you want to be a part of it your stories and not (and it is almost impossile to miss them all).

[Sword of Akasha]

The best thing to do when dealing with stereotypes is to be aware of them. A lot of all kind of tropes are not used conscious after all. They are just ingrained in the way we think story telling.

I guess I'm hyper-conscious of it. On a personal note, I guess I'm too at times insecure about my ethnicity and the cultural perceptions of others. I'm an outsider in my real life. I was eating Cheetos with chopsticks I received many a queer stare. You find yourself suppressing parts of yourself and expressing others depending on the company you keep. All and all you find no true home or comfort on either side of the divide. Another example I have is of an African American friend, I had, who loves fried chicken, yet he religiously avoids ordering it ever with others. We've shared some KFC though. =D

Hollywood extras are actually at times are hired for displaying their ethnicity via 'accent' even if they don't possess that accent in real life. Stereotypes are born from a grain of truth and a deluge of exaggeration. I guess I'm trying write cultural elements as "something" a character does rather that "something" a character is. I guess I'm struggling at the intersection here of expectation, reality, and our desire to for accuracy.

If you are dealing wiht a specific archetype research what stereotypes it usually gives birth to and then you can make a conscious decision of what you want to be a part of it your stories and not (and it is almost impossile to miss them all).

Yeah, the research part is most important. I've face-palmed many a time at some authors' poorly researched portrayals. When it's not laughable, it's deeply disturbing and insulting.

[Kailoto]

I was eating Cheetos with chopsticks I received many a queer stare.

I have got to try that, it sounds so cool.

[Mad Harlequin]

I think I'm just very much worried that while I'm creating characters which liken to an archetypical model that they will cross slightly into stereotype or that I will be accused of it. Say if I were to a draw a dwarf character in writing and/or art. Some will demand the full beard while others might want me to shave the stubble already there.

Well, if you were creating your own dwarf, I would tell you that you should make him or her exactly as you like, beard or no beard. I mean, if you take a look at mythology and folklore, there are different explanations for real phenomena. Let's take the patterns visible on the moon's surface. To people in the western world, there's a man in the moon. To people in Asia, it's a rabbit.

So while somebody might find something stereotypical (for good or ill) about your characters, that doesn't mean you're doomed to be written off as uninspired or worse. Even when certain tropes are present, that doesn't automatically prevent the creation of a great story. I certainly wouldn't have rattled on about Tolkien for so long if I thought so!

Anyway, this kind of scrutiny is something you just have to get used to. The website TV Tropes exists because we humans love to tell and retell and analyze stories and characters. I love looking at a work of fiction and figuring out, say, what allusions are made to cultures and histories around the world.

I've been watching the classic anime The Rose of Versailles lately and it's set just before a very important period in French history.

[RotGtIE]

Well, if you were creating your own dwarf, I would tell you that you should make him or her exactly as you like, beard or no beard.

[Enigma]

Leaf Wind hails from the east. She'll have some cultural baggage. Traditions in the west would be alien to her and vice versa. Yes, she has her own opinions, however, some of behaviors and ideas are clearly the product of her archetype/culture. I think it would be an offense to cut off part of her. It would be like those photo manipulators in those fashion magazines 'lightening' the skin of ethnic models. However, in demonstrating aspects of Leaf's cultural roots and her methodology of mind, some may cry that it's stereotypical and etc.

This made me think of a character in my own game by the name of Shiori Ludwig, who's character arc involes her rejecting her japanese identity (hence her last name). Her home country ,the American Empire, has it's most powerful enemy in Haruka (one name only), who just happens to have been Japanese (as in she's no longer a citizen since establishing her own nation, she could have dual citizenship but you get my point) and a majority of her citizens were as well. As such there's a bit of anti-Japanese sentiment in Shiori's country, and it doesn't help that her parents support a charity dedicated to rebuilding Japan that just so happens to be owned by Haruka. She was bullied about it previously and has tried her best to be more American/Imperial, and transfer to the Imperial Knight Academy in an attempt to make sure no one questioned her loyalty, which didn't exactly work. She still gets flak especially considering her weapons of choice are kodachi.

This sort of illustrates my approach to these things in that the tropes we expect can (and IMO should) be used to inform us about other parts of the character. The way Shiori reacts to the sterotypes expected of her ,and which of these fit or don't fit her, tell us things about her. I take a similar approach to all my characters, for example the main character of the Imperial portion of the story (the other country gets its own side so we can see how much of the Imperial attitude toward them is justified and vice versa) was adopted into nobility, and she tries very hard to sound like a noble when talking to other nobles, sometimes she awkwardly uses more impressive sounding words when regular words would work better because in her head that's how a Countess should talk. I think alluding to the sterotypes people have can be a good thing when it's juxtaposed against what the character actually is and what effect the sterotype might have had on the character's life and interactions with other. As site who shall not be named (as it's one of the biggest timesinks on the internet, at least for me) tropes are tools, it's all on the user.

[Sword of Akasha]

Well, if you were creating your own dwarf, I would tell you that you should make him or her exactly as you like, beard or no beard. I mean, if you take a look at mythology and folklore, there are different explanations for real phenomena. Let's take the patterns visible on the moon's surface. To people in the western world, there's a man in the moon. To people in Asia, it's a rabbit.

Jah, I think the powerful potential of having a diverse cast is the interplay of disparate opinions and perspectives that make for a more realistic fictional world. I enjoy the cultural posturings of one character versus another.

I made Blueberry Frost's combat archetype into your anti-magic Western Knight. I made Leaf Wind's a glass cannon Samurai. There's some cultural similarities and definite differences. They have a rivalry within the story. I'm not catering to cultural relativism, objectively in their methodology depending on the situation there are more preferable and utilitarian options. In combat they specialize on taking out their specific counter archetype. I suppose I've established my own elemental rock, scissor, and paper. The battles though are scripted since I haven't gotten a license for a battle engine yet, however, I wanted to develop a dimension of strategy in player decisions.

Anyway, this kind of scrutiny is something you just have to get used to. The website TV Tropes exists because we humans love to tell and retell and analyze stories and characters. I love looking at a work of fiction and figuring out, say, what allusions are made to cultures and histories around the world.

Yeah, I'm quite familiar with our friend TV Tropes. =D I think it basically tells the language of writing. It raises the bar as it were. The modern audience can be rather cynical regarding new works. It makes it easy to identify hackneyed and poorly researched work. However, I've found also it leads some writers to think all tropes are bad and cliche. That can be intimidating and stop people from writing their own stories.

This made me think of a character in my own game by the name of Shiori Ludwig...

We seem to have a fondness for transplanted characters with identity crises stemming from their heritage/upbringing dichotomy. The difficulty of accurately portraying such characters, I think is quite palpable. You should be careful when using national identities directly(most authors have plausible deniability). I can spot a dozen landmines in that type of portrayal if it's not handled with grace.