Alternative to First Person visual novels

Questions, skill improvement, and respectful critique involving game writing.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
Elmvine
Regular
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 6:45 pm
itch: elmvine
Contact:

Alternative to First Person visual novels

#1 Post by Elmvine » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:24 am

I'm not too familiar with the genre to know why this is, but there is definitely a greater preference for a first person writing style in visual novels and to some extent. Which leads me to wonder are there any 3rd person visual novels, where the player manipulates the story but doesn't assume the role of the main character?

Is it harder to immerse yourself in a 3rd person VN?
I only ask because my own writing style is typically third person, and now delving into VNs - I feel this awkward shift.

I've also found that I prefer visual novels that focus on dialogue if they are in first person. Somehow reading first person description of what is going on, or what they are doing feels awkward again.

User avatar
Kailoto
Veteran
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:36 am
Completed: No VNs, but a few novels. :D
Projects: Artificial, Seven Deaths (inactive)
Skype: I'm on Discord! (Kailoto#5139)
Location: Seattle, the Emerald City
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#2 Post by Kailoto » Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:43 am

Elmvine wrote:I'm not too familiar with the genre to know why this is, but there is definitely a greater preference for a first person writing style in visual novels and to some extent. Which leads me to wonder are there any 3rd person visual novels, where the player manipulates the story but doesn't assume the role of the main character?

Is it harder to immerse yourself in a 3rd person VN?
I only ask because my own writing style is typically third person, and now delving into VNs - I feel this awkward shift.

I've also found that I prefer visual novels that focus on dialogue if they are in first person. Somehow reading first person description of what is going on, or what they are doing feels awkward again.
Choices in third person are a bit of a trickier beast to tackle, but it can be done. I can't think of any VNs that have choices integrated with a third-person narrative off of the top of my head, but I've certainly seen kinetic novels that pull off all sorts of perspectives.

I think the genre and type of story makes a huge difference, too. If the VN is akin to a dating sim or galge, the first person perspective makes sense, since the primary goal is pursuing romantic interests; it's easier to play a specific role in first person, and since the outcome of everything is decided by the protagonist's (and by proxy, your) choices, the player has a stronger sense of control over the narrative.

I think, for third person to really work in a branching VN, the immersion has to be centered on the setting and characters, rather than playing a specific role. So instead of using the VN as a place for empowerment and wish fulfillment, it's probably more effective to focus on worldbuilding and character interactions. Decentralize the main cast and allow the setting to play a driving role. Think like Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings, where you can have different characters doing different things in different parts of the world, and where one person's actions in a faraway place can change the situation for everyone else.

Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, though, because I haven't actually attempted this perspective with branching content.
Things I've Written:
Sakura (Novel, Self Published, 80,000+ words)
City and Girl (Novel, First Draft, 70,000+ words)
Loka (Novel, Third Draft, 120,000+ words)


A layabout writer and programmer with lots of problems and even more ideas. Hyped for Persona 5.

User avatar
noctos
Regular
Posts: 65
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 2:15 am
Projects: Aeris
Tumblr: noctos
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#3 Post by noctos » Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:59 am

I think this is an interesting question. Like you, my writing style is in third person, and I usually prefer that in everything I read. I've never been fond of first person novels, or games. I understand the appeal when it comes to dating sims, that you sort of "are" the character, but I usually separate myself from the protagonist anyway.

The visual novel I'm working on is written in third person, and I don't plan on changing that. I know a lot of players prefer first person, but the writing would look awkward and weird to me personally, and I think I wouldn't enjoy working on it if I changed it. Sort of takes away the point, then, huh?
Kailoto wrote:I think, for third person to really work in a branching VN, the immersion has to be centered on the setting and characters, rather than playing a specific role. So instead of using the VN as a place for empowerment and wish fulfillment, it's probably more effective to focus on worldbuilding and character interactions.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Third person works well when the setting is a very vital part of the story.

It's important to be aware of the strength and weaknesses of each perspective, too. With first person you get a closer approach, it becomes more personal. You see everything from the protagonist's point of view, and have direct access to their feelings and reactions.
With third person you have the opportunity to describe more outside of the protagonist, and paint a bigger picture of the setting.

I think it boils down to preference, though. If you enjoy writing in third person and think you can make it work, do it. The most important thing is that you enjoy working on it. You can also experiment with first person and see if you like that better! Sometimes it just takes a bit of experimenting and practice to get comfortable with something new.
Image
Tentatively working on my first project ☆

User avatar
trooper6
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:33 pm
Projects: A Close Shave
Location: Medford, MA
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#4 Post by trooper6 » Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:53 pm

Games I've played off the top of my head:

1st Person:
Analogue: 1st Person
Don't Take it Personally, Babe: 1st Person
Elevator: 1st Person
Magical Diary: 1st Person
Ristorante Amore: 1st Person
Once and Artist: 1st Person
Face Time: 1st Person
Juniper's Knot: 1st Person
Locked-In: 1st Person
Toire No Hanako: 1st Person
Witch/Knight: 1st Person

3rd Person:
The One in Love: 3rd Person
Ex Astris: 3rd Person
Lil Red: More or less 3rd Person, sort of.

2nd Person:
Coming Out on Top: 2nd Person

Complicated:
Digital: A Love Story: Doesn't have any narration (maybe at the very end?), complicating the the 1st Person/3rd Person narration distinction a bit. You are playing as yourself-ish. Which I suppose makes it 1st Person. But everything you read is addressing you in 2nd Person
Cave Cave Deus Videt: A mix. 2nd Person with the psychiatrist, a 3rd Person feeling when the protagonist is not on the screen, a 1st person feeling when the protagonist is on the screen.
Cinders: I think that game is dialogue only, so it complicates the 1st Person/3rd Person narration distinction a bit. Cinders uses I, but as a reader you are not exactly Cinders, so you could be that 3rd Person.

That is a lot of first person, but there are other things out there.

Really it depends on what your influences are and what sort of experience you are trying to emulate. Many people here seem to think of VNs first and foremost as novels with extra stuff. So they often thing you should write as you would write a novel. So what sort of novels do you read. If you read a lot of novels in 3rd person, it might make sense to emulate that. If you read a lot of crime novels...which are mostly in the first person...it might make sense to emulate that.

But novels are not the only place people are coming from when it comes to VN creation. Some people are clearly coming at VNs from a film or tv space...which often doesn't have narration...so they figure out what they want to do.

I'm coming at VNs as a GM of table-top RPGs, so I favor 2nd person narrative.

I'd say, as in anything...do what *you* do best and do what you want to do.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

User avatar
Elmvine
Regular
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 6:45 pm
itch: elmvine
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#5 Post by Elmvine » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:28 pm

Kailoto wrote:Choices in third person are a bit of a trickier beast to tackle, but it can be done. I can't think of any VNs that have choices integrated with a third-person narrative off of the top of my head, but I've certainly seen kinetic novels that pull off all sorts of perspectives....
Kinetic novels can do whatver they want :lol:, it's getting third person to feel natural with choices that's proving awkward. When you say setting, I'm assuming you mean plot-driven stories, where there's a lot about the world to describe. Instead of maybe dating games, where the only goal is romance. I enjoy an immersive setting, but I also enjoy strong characters. With Game of Thrones and LOTR, you're right, I am very interested in the world they live in. At times I focus my attention to the characters, but it's not consistent. However, VNs typically focus on a single protagonist, by decentralising the cast I feel like you'd no longer care about where the choices may take the character. I also feel like the more choices a VN has, the more it becomes character-driven for the player.

Honestly, it's making my head hurt trying to work out what to do. xD I probably need to sit down and read a few goods novels and play a few Vns that are varying in perspectives to see how they tackle both immersive settings, and strong characters. @____@
noctos wrote:I think this is an interesting question. Like you, my writing style is in third person, and I usually prefer that in everything I read. I've never been fond of first person novels, or games...
Honestly, I was never to keen on first person stories originally, but I've read a few that make me think maybe the others were just badly written. ^^;; What you say about separating yourself from the protagonist is interesting. I don't know if you're much of a gamer, or watch let's plays. But I've always find it interesting to see how different people play a game and invest in the character. I've noticed some people fully roleplay and act as if they are the character, regardless if they're given back-story or not. Whereas separate themselves, but are emotionally invested by considering themselves a sort of guardian? e.g "I want this character to get the good ending" vs "I want the good ending for myself". Maybe I'm reading into it too much. However, the idea I'm toying with features romance - alongside a bigger plot. It feels easier to approach the romantic aspects of it in first person, because like you said, you have greater access to the characters feelings. On the other hand, because of the actual plot and fantasy I want to introduce it feels only natural to go through third person. ^^;;

Writing is not my strongest suit so I probably just need more practice with first person... But I still would like to see some thorough 3rd person VNs. :3 It's very interesting to see so many different things in what some consider a niche.

trooper6 wrote:Games I've played off the top of my head....
I'll have to try those VNs out some time. I think my confusion comes from feeling like some parts of what I write should be in 3rd person description wise, but introducing choices presents a desire to switch to first or second person. And if ever at some point I feel like introducing thoughts - it feels odd to have them outside first person.

I'm interested to see the transition of narration style in Cave Cave Deus Videt, might put my mind at rest. That being said, I read a lot of fiction in 3rd person, so instinctively go for that approach. But.. I'm also a fan of dungeons and dragon style games/Table-tops. Considering the gaming/roleplay element of many VNs it feels odd to not be addressed in 2nd person. There are novels like 'The Secret History' which use first person - and honestly don't feel like it. It's just strange to me that I can't seem to settle on a voice.

User avatar
trooper6
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:33 pm
Projects: A Close Shave
Location: Medford, MA
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#6 Post by trooper6 » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:38 pm

Elmvine wrote: Kinetic novels can do whatver they want :lol:, it's getting third person to feel natural with choices that's proving awkward.
trooper6 wrote:Games I've played off the top of my head....
I'll have to try those VNs out some time. I think my confusion comes from feeling like some parts of what I write should be in 3rd person description wise, but introducing choices presents a desire to switch to first or second person. And if ever at some point I feel like introducing thoughts - it feels odd to have them outside first person.

I'm interested to see the transition of narration style in Cave Cave Deus Videt, might put my mind at rest. That being said, I read a lot of fiction in 3rd person, so instinctively go for that approach. But.. I'm also a fan of dungeons and dragon style games/Table-tops. Considering the gaming/roleplay element of many VNs it feels odd to not be addressed in 2nd person. There are novels like 'The Secret History' which use first person - and honestly don't feel like it. It's just strange to me that I can't seem to settle on a voice.
I think *things* aren't awkward, *people* are awkward doing things. And if you aren't awkward doing a thing, then it isn't awkward.

So my preferred address in a VN is 2nd Person. That according to the VNs I've played is by far the least used address. I've seen many people say 2nd person is just awkward. Well...it isn't awkward for me. I've been using it in my role as a Game Master since 1984...it is a completely natural way for me to conceive of an interactive experience. So...do what you're comfortable with.

As for 3rd Person choices....that depends on how you write them...and how you think about them. I'm sure you've played table-top RPGs (hereafter just RPGs) where some players never speak in the 1st person, always in the 3rd? I have often had this experience as a GM:

Me: The house is quiet, there seem to be no guards and the front door is open. No one is walking down the cobblestone streets, every good, law-abiding citizen sleeping soundly behind locked doors once the sun goes down. So...what do you do?
Player1: I'm going to walk in the front door?
Player2: Cat-burglar Jessie is going to sneak around the back.

If table top players can play choices in the third person, VNs should be able to do it as well. With confidence in and commitment to the writing style (and a concept of what the playing experience represents), it should work.

I like 2nd Person Address, 1st Person response to choices because I conceive of my VN like an RPG conversation between GM and Player.

Code: Select all

"The house stands before you. What do you do?"
menu:
    "I enter the house."
    "I walk around the back."

You could imagine the experience as if it were a first person novel, where the protagonist has a conversation with themself when it comes to choices (this puts you a bit more in the shoes of the protagonist).

Code: Select all

"The house stood before me. What should I do?"
menu:
    "I'll enter the house."
    "I'll walk around back."
You could imagine the experience as if it were a first person novel, where the choices run like prose (this can put you in the shoes of the protagonist, or it could make you feel distanced--as if the protagonist is telling you a story).

Code: Select all

  "The house stood before me."
menu:
    "I entered the house."
    "I walked around back."
You could imagine the experience as if it were a first person novel, but where you are a director giving them commands.

Code: Select all

  "The house stood before me."
menu:
    "Enter the house."
    "Walk around back."
Now this also works for 3rd Person.

You can imagine the experience as if it were a third person novel with the choices like prose:

Code: Select all

"The house stood before Cat-burglar Jessie."
menu:
    "Jessie enters the house."
    "Jessie walks around back."
You can imagine the experience as if it were a third person novel with the reader as director giving orders:

Code: Select all

"The house stood before Cat-burglar Jessie."
menu:
    "Enter the house."
    "Walk around back."
You can imagine the experience as if it were a shared story told in the third person by people around a campfire:

Code: Select all

"The house stands before Cat-burglar Jessie. What does Jessie do?"
menu:
    "Jessie enters the house."
    "Jessie walks around back."

I think lots of ways work...you just have to conceptualize what the meta experience of the VN is. Are they reading a novel? What sort of novel? Are they telling stories around a campfire? Are they watching a play? etc.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

User avatar
Katy133
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:21 pm
Completed: Eight Sweets, The Heart of Tales, [redacted] Life, Must Love Jaws, A Tune at the End of the World, Three Guys That Paint, The Journey of Ignorance, Portal 2.5.
Projects: The Butler Detective
Tumblr: katy-133
Deviantart: Katy133
Soundcloud: Katy133
itch: katy133
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#7 Post by Katy133 » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:06 pm

Elmvine wrote:I'm not too familiar with the genre to know why this is, but there is definitely a greater preference for a first person writing style in visual novels and to some extent. Which leads me to wonder are there any 3rd person visual novels, where the player manipulates the story but doesn't assume the role of the main character?
If you need a case study, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties is a third-person visual novel. You can look at that game and see what worked and what didn't, and how it could have been improved.
ImageImage

My Website, which lists my visual novels.
Become a patron on my Patreon!

User avatar
Elmvine
Regular
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 6:45 pm
itch: elmvine
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#8 Post by Elmvine » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Welp How did I miss this.
trooper6 wrote:...
All of that was insanely helpful. Really got me thinking, and I believe I've settled on a 'style' now. :) Thanks
Katy133 wrote:If you need a case study, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties is a third-person visual novel. You can look at that game and see what worked and what didn't, and how it could have been improved.
I will definitely be checking this out!

User avatar
P_Nova
Regular
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:56 pm
Projects: Wings of Justice
Organization: BunnyPudding&Co.
Tumblr: bunnypuddingandco
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#9 Post by P_Nova » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:22 pm

Hum... I feel like the question do not treat about point of view/focus which I find as critical than using "I" "You" or something else...

I mean they are linked somehow to emphase certain feeling on the player. THe usual combo are :

Omniscient narrator at the third person for telling a story...
subjective point of view at first person for creating emphaty or identification with the hero...
etc...

The more important is to know how to play with person and point of view to create the effect you want like ambiguity, empathy, clarity, etc...
Image
(>^^)> If you have tried our game, please, leave us a little comment. <(^^<)

(>^^)> !!! We are still amateur, help us to grow big and professionnal !!! <(^^<)

Test our demo !

Tentacles
Regular
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:02 pm
Projects: Advent Innocuous (Remake), Mr. Clocktime (Visual Novel), Cagaea (RMVX Ace), Park Day (Hybrid)
Deviantart: otissalmoneus
Github: L.W. Flouisa
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#10 Post by Tentacles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:10 pm

I hope this thread isn't to old.:/

I'm in a tricky situation myself coming from writing novellas, I'm so used to switching back and forth between first and third person or first and second person: Ex. If you want to ride the train, I am waiting at the door. Here I will lead you to the candy train, not the house that you abhor.

And so my ability to make choices for the gamer has been complicated.

My guess would be switching the tense between choices, it put choices in first person to me.

Baring in mind I'm the weird one doing multiple first person perspective sometimes.:P
Image

Animation Experiment -- Renpy
Arcade Day 2 -- Text-Based Adventure -- ADSS

You can find me:
https://pumpity.net/LWFlouisa
https://goblinrefuge.com/mediagoblin/u/lwflouisa/

Cith
Regular
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:49 am
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#11 Post by Cith » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:20 am

Elmvine wrote: Kinetic novels can do whatver they want :lol:, it's getting third person to feel natural with choices that's proving awkward. When you say setting, I'm assuming you mean plot-driven stories, where there's a lot about the world to describe. Instead of maybe dating games, where the only goal is romance. I enjoy an immersive setting, but I also enjoy strong characters. With Game of Thrones and LOTR, you're right, I am very interested in the world they live in. At times I focus my attention to the characters, but it's not consistent. However, VNs typically focus on a single protagonist, by decentralising the cast I feel like you'd no longer care about where the choices may take the character. I also feel like the more choices a VN has, the more it becomes character-driven for the player.

Honestly, it's making my head hurt trying to work out what to do. xD I probably need to sit down and read a few goods novels and play a few Vns that are varying in perspectives to see how they tackle both immersive settings, and strong characters. @____@
Loren: The Amazon Princess VN/RPG game narrated in the 3rd person, and yes there are choices. Furthermore The Walking Dead may not have a narrative, but it is told from a 3rd person perspective and also has choices.

It's very possible to have a 3rd person VN, in fact I prefer them. I'm currently writing a VN/sim and it's 3rd person also. The trick is recognising that VNs don't have to be about "self-insertion" (which is what a lot of VNs traditionally were about, which is why they were written in 1st person, and sometimes translated in present tense, and had a very generic main character) and that maybe VNs could even benefit without it revolving around this self-insertion aspect.
Image

User avatar
Fox Lee
Veteran
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:46 am
Completed: Where Ages Go [NaNo2015]
Projects: Swan x Swan [YuriJam/NaNo16], ♥ON, Guilded Age
Organization: Invincible Ink
Deviantart: foxlee
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#12 Post by Fox Lee » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:28 pm

trooper6 wrote:If table top players can play choices in the third person, VNs should be able to do it as well. With confidence in and commitment to the writing style (and a concept of what the playing experience represents), it should work.

I like 2nd Person Address, 1st Person response to choices because I conceive of my VN like an RPG conversation between GM and Player.
<snipsnip>
I really like all these examples! It's an interesting sort of thought exercise. I would add one more, too: no pronouns whatsoever.

Code: Select all

  "The house stands ahead."
menu:
    "Enter the house."
    "Walk around back."
...which is probably my favourite overall. It does sort of imply first person, with how the answers are phrased, but not strictly so - and I think it makes a difference to me, how hard the game tries force the character to be "me" or "them".

It occurs to me, one place you might find common second-person narrative is in MMORPGs. Obviously I haven't tested all of them, but it's certainly true of my favourite, City of Heroes. The nature of that game was that they did a ton of instancing, so story arcs took place in very well-defined and private space, meaning it often felt like a tabletop session - and when the game's writing took a noticeable quality jump (during the second expansion) and they introduced branching dialogue, narrative sections started looking a lot like second-person VN gameplay.

To veer right outside of genre, I find it interesting that Pokemon likes to address you in third person ("FOX used the MASTER BALL"), despite it having a complete cipher for a main character. Heck, even a customisable one in the latest iterations. I'm always surprised to see that, in an avatar game.
Fox Lee: The Girl Your Mother Warned You About
CleanDirtyFurryPro
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
trooper6
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:33 pm
Projects: A Close Shave
Location: Medford, MA
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#13 Post by trooper6 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:36 pm

Fox Lee, I really enjoyed you no pronoun example! It is a great addition!
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

User avatar
MikeConway
Newbie
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:27 pm
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#14 Post by MikeConway » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:26 pm

I've been pondering experimenting with this, myself, since I have done a couple of visual novels from 1st-person, and wouldn't mind the challenge.

The way I've thought of tackling it is instead of making choices for a character, the player chooses where they'd like the plot to go. "What do you want to see happen?" This could work in such a way that the player might even want to choose a "negative" path to see where the story goes, and how it impacts the characters.

An example:
The three villains confront Super C and Coyote Man. Lightning arcs between them and they grin wickedly. The crowd looks on, unaware that a lightining storm is about to wipe them all out.
[Choices]
Super C rushes them, knowing that, while he's invulnerable, this is going to hurt. A lot.
Coyote Man triggers the flammable flour prank he set up a little bit ago. It might bruise Super C's ego, but it'll be hella funny.
The villains unleash their force on the heroes in order to make a hasty getaway.

This would, I believe, take a load off of whether or not to pick a character to make choices for.

User avatar
trooper6
Lemma-Class Veteran
Posts: 3617
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:33 pm
Projects: A Close Shave
Location: Medford, MA
Contact:

Re: Alternative to First Person visual novels

#15 Post by trooper6 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:43 pm

It is a less immersive style, but some people may prefer that.
A Close Shave:
*Last Thing Done (Aug 17): Finished coding emotions and camera for 4/10 main labels.
*Currently Doing: Coding of emotions and camera for the labels--On 5/10
*First Next thing to do: Code in all CG and special animation stuff
*Next Next thing to do: Set up film animation
*Other Thing to Do: Do SFX and Score (maybe think about eye blinks?)
Check out My Clock Cookbook Recipe: http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 51&t=21978

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users