True endings and their influence on narrative

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#16 Post by Tentacles » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:49 pm

I don't like the idea so much for a best end, so much as a worst end. I used to write horror, though over time became less of one such writer. In such stories it seems like it makes more sense to have a worst end, with ends gradually better. But the true end is the worst ending for the main character.

Within this framework, I love true endings. But object isn't necessarily the happiest end, so much as the logical ending.
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#17 Post by trooper6 » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:01 am

Tentacles wrote: Within this framework, I love true endings. But object isn't necessarily the happiest end, so much as the logical ending.
For me, if there is only one logical end, then I'd prefer the author just make the game a KN and be done with it.
For me, VNs are about conceiving many logical endings...it is about having a relationship with the player where they get to create a journey and they get an ending that logically follows from their choices. And so whatever ending they get it the one they earned. No one ending is more or less true. All endings are "true" because each ending flows logically from the choices the player made.

If an author wants to tell one specific story I'd rather they be honest about it and just make a KN.
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#18 Post by Tentacles » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:11 am

Actually as strange as this sounds, for the longest time I've eschewed from the idea of ending. At least not the traditional sense, so like even as I say one logical ending, I'm not even sure if an ending is what I want.

Like in Park Day, I'm anticipating that a 'True Ending' is featured in each ending. Simply put: Plot stays the same, how the character interprets their experience changes. Plot remains constant, but character can change and very. Like if there is a train and a caste of characters locked in a train I write about the ones locked in the train.

How each character changes has no preference.

So what I should say is less true ending as logical ending, everything being a logical extension of choices gone before.
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#19 Post by Ozitiho » Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:45 pm

trooper6 wrote:I think authors need to be more honest about if they want to tell a linear story or not. I think authors have to spend more time thinking about interactivity and how to do it in interesting and novel ways.
It's not that simple. Yeah, it's true that in the end the author is basically going for a linear plot. But there's a perfectly good reason they decided to make branches anyway. Steins;Gate had these short branches to expand on characters other than those in the "true end". Hoshizora no Memoria forced you to play every path before playing the true one (and after that the bonus one). But every one of these branches were very interesting and significant in their own way. And the true end is that much better for having them. I personally really like the existence of true endings.

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#20 Post by Tentacles » Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:21 pm

Actually the biggest reason I use them is for statistics based stuff that doesn't effect the ending so much as overall gameplay. Like you might have a kinetic novel that features a battle system.

Even within kinetic novels, there is having four separate disks featuring a narrative from a different POV. So then the interactive element in said kinetic novels would be reading through various disks one might call 'puzzle pieces.'

It's gameplay, though it's a little subtler. Each puzzle piece having its own ending.
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#21 Post by NotSubmohr » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:56 am

Whenever I play a game with an established "True Ending," I tend to treat the other endings not as their own full-fledged routes, but instead as 'context' for the true ending's story.

I'm going to use Hatoful Boyfriend as my example, since that's the 'true ending' game I've most recently played:
Hatoful's True Ending required you to see nearly all other endings before you could even access it, which meant you had to replay the game quite a few times in order to see the 'actual' story. But the previous playthroughs weren't invalidated by the fact that they weren't canon, or weren't as detailed; rather, they gave the player a deeper understanding of each important character, so that they already had expectations and understandings of everyone going into the much more complex true ending. I definitely feel like the impact of the true ending's story would've been dampened if the characters weren't as well understood by the player going in; or rather, if the True Ending had to develop 8-10 characters alongside telling the story it wanted to tell, it would have been *incredibly* crowded. Developing those characters ahead of time essentially allowed for more 'storytelling.'

That being said, I think Hatoful has a unique situation; the various original routes are all much sillier, because the game as a whole is silly, and so it's sort of "allowed" to drastically change the feel of the game between the normal routes and the true end. I think it does what it set out to do very well, and that's why the true end worked; you didn't feel cheated by how short/unserious the various routes were, and you get a neat story at the end as a reward.
I can definitely see how True Ends can go wrong, but I don't think it's an inherent problem to the concept; I think it's generally just poor execution. (Or - trying to shove a "True End" into a story that doesn't need one/shouldn't have one.)

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#22 Post by soraibi » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:09 am

I actually like true endings. I feel like it gives the story a 'proper'/complete closure. However, I don't mind it if there's no 'true ending'. I kind of treat all of the alternatives of the game like they're all from a different universe or something. In other words, all of the endings are 'true endings' in its own way. :D

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#23 Post by Krel » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:51 am

I'm actually surprised about the consensus in this topic; I figured there'd be less people in favour of true ends.

I think I prefer "true" ends if all the other endings end negatively/neutrally. This means the true end is a reward for navigating around bad ends and making correct decisions.

If there are multiple positive endings, then I don't like the idea of a true end because it takes legitimacy away from the ending I prefer, and makes my decisions feel less meaningful.

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#24 Post by Shoko » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:27 pm

There's a BIG difference between a true end that takes forces you to play through the other routes to be unlocked and one that takes place on the same accessibility level as the others. True end VNs done right make the routes you play individually satisfying on their own while whetting your appetite for a greater conclusion, aka Tsugumi route from Ever17.

I think the people crying "Make a linear story!" are forgetting why the true routes are considered true. They're often the ones in which the events that take place are the most interesting, where major elements that wouldn't have been able to collide before are unleashed, where knowledge and initimacy gained from previous routes is re-contextualized and allows the writer to advance to answering the lingering questions proposed in the other routes. Each route is meant to build up to something and not be an equal oppurtunity choice simulator and that's OK.

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#25 Post by ladynamoru » Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:07 pm

When I play VN I make sure to unlock the true End since it is the closure of the game that the writer wants us to show.

There is a time where I write an ending that for others they think of it as a Sad and Bad End. But I label it as Good End, since this is what I think is Good.

I think that the purpose of True,Good,Bad end is because the writer makes the story to have options or choices. Like in real life, our choices will lead us to many different endings and for the writers those endings are what she classifies as True, Good, Bad so I guess there's no problem with that.

Unfortunately, I prefer the Bad Ends on VN (which isn't good XD)
why? because there are times that I feel that It is more realistic than any other endings

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#26 Post by Fox Lee » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:10 pm

Yes and no, I guess? Like if there's a "true" ending that comes after all the other endings because it's intended to tie them together, I really like that. But for endings that are mutually exclusive, yeah, true endings aren't a great idea. I get that there's probably a particular ending that the author prefers or thinks of as ideal, but labelling it as "true" does sort of imply that the other endings are a less appropriate expression of the characters, and probably shouldn't be there (or should be mostly a joke, like the "Arrested Some Cosplayers" or secret completion endings from Cute Demon Crashers).

I guess what I'm saying is, even if there's one ending that's harder to get than the others or has a "better" outcome according to the character's desires, it's probably better if you don't declare it to be the "proper" ending to the game and invalidate the others. Every ending you put in is gonna be somebody's "true ending".
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#27 Post by ladynamoru » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:16 am

@Fox Lee You again? >_< ahahha

Now back to the topic:
Instead of Labeling it as TRUE,GOOD and BAD, I think its better if you gave titles to those endings

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#28 Post by Ozitiho » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:47 am

Fox Lee wrote:... it's probably better if you don't declare it to be the "proper" ending to the game and invalidate the others. Every ending you put in is gonna be somebody's "true ending".
That makes a lot of sense... Though personally, I like reading "true end" on my screen. It gives me a sense of completion, even if there might be more to do. This doesn't apply to dating sims as strongly though. I wouldn't like it if a particular character path was declared more legit than others.
In Majikoi, the true ending was essentially the one in which you didn't date any of the girls. (Though you had to date all of the girls to unlock it) In it, instead of focusing on one character in specific, instead it just had a really cool and satisfying plot involving everyone. In my opinion, that's a great way to make a player feel like he's finished the game, rather than just finish the last path that was as legit as all the others. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though.

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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#29 Post by LVUER » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:13 am

I don't know if this has been mentioned... but a true (canon) ending does not always happier or better than the not-true-endings... True ending is just if the game has multiple good ending, usually a good ending for every characters, then there is one particular ending that the author considers canon.

Some game has good endings for the "other heroines"... but the ending with "canon" girl is just sad... There are also that game which has a good alternate ending... but bad true ending (yeah, it can be considered bad ending in many games).
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Re: True endings and their influence on narrative

#30 Post by westwestern » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:05 am

The ending of any story should be logical. It doesn't matter if it's true, bad or good ending. There should by logical reasons for your story to end that way. if you just want to show the ugly truth no matter what, the player will notice that and be confused. :? :?
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