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So, after many hours of deliberation, and no answer to be seen, I've decided to ask you lovely people to weigh your thoughts.

1st Person vs 3rd Person Narration

Being used to advance the plot, give information, and to set / describe the mood, circumstances, scene ect. means that narration is a very important element of Visual Novels. Most use 1st person narration, sometimes changing the perspective of the 1st person to bring another "playable" character to the attention of the reader, to provide context, or play out scenes where the protagonist is missing. Some times, there's the use of 3rd person narration, which helps be more factual, but loses some level of immersion of the characters themselves.

As an example; Jacob is being chased, and has to read a book about buckets very quickly ( random ass example, yes )

1st Person

I read quickly through the book, which contained a lot of information on buckets

Pros;

• Easy to express emotion first hand
• Writing style can change depending on emotion and mood
• Accepted everywhere

Cons;

• Hard to reveal important facts out of reach of the protagonist
• Hard to mention gameplay mechanics without breaking the 4th wall

3rd Person

Jacob began reading the book about buckets, taking in as much as he could, as quickly as he could

Pros;

• More informative
• Foreshadowing is more factual, less cliche

Cons;

• Hard to keep up this writing style
• Not as liked as 1st person narration
• Less emotional investment into the characters

My current project is about to begin production, and I'm yet to decide if there should be a narration type exposition about the story and the plot ( the universe it's based in has a lot of information to it, which learning first hand might be strenuous or boring ).

Discuss

1st person is preeminently popular in visual novels because usually the game takes place from your POV, looking out at the other characters, similar to a first person video game.

However, I think that 3rd person is equally viable.

But, what you are talking about isn't really a matter of first person or third person, it's more of a show don't tell kind of thing. It's wholly possible to give information about lore in the first person, equally as well as you can in the third person, as long as you have the right technique.

I think, when it comes to choosing POV, your main question should be, "What is the relationship between the player and the characters in the story?" First person means you're placing the player into a specific role, "assigning" them to a certain character in a sense. This means that everything the player experiences in the story goes through a filter of sorts, that filter being the protagonist. Everything you learn about the story is tinged with the protagonist's personality, and you are (usually) only privy to the same information that the protagonist is.

Third person is a little less clear cut... it depends on who the narrator is, be it another character in the story, the author, or some detached and impartial scribe. You're still viewing the story through that filter, but it's a lot more subtle, and you have more leeway in what you can show to the player at any given moment. And yeah, it's a bit more distant, but that doesn't mean it's any less involved or emotional.

So the question would be, do you want the player to experience the story through the eyes of the protagonist (say, Jacob), or would you rather the characters to be more removed from the POV, and have the narrator be (presumably) more reliable? I usually just make the decision based on whether or not the story is protagonist-centric, where everything has to do with Jacob in some way. If so? First person. If not? Probably a version of third.

But this is just how I do things, so do what you will with it.

For me, it's about how defined the main character is. If it's supposed to be "me" - like an avatar of the player, not a character defined by the author - then first-person works well. But, if they're a well-defined character in their own right, and especially if they're on the screen where the other characters are, then I'm thinking of them as "they", and first-person narration seems weird. Since I prefer defined protagonists to avatars, that probably means I prefer third-person narration - but it's so rare I can barely think of an example.

I have to admit though, first-person lets you do some fun tricks with your MC (something I played with in my first VN). Used well, you can reveal all sorts of info about your protagonist through the other characters, rather than having to state it outright. That's quite valuable.

Actually, I prefer no or minimal narration if possible, but there's a lot of games for which that just wouldn't work ^_^; Still, in my ideal VN information would be conveyed mostly through dialogue and visuals, with narration involved only when necessary.

You may find this thread interesting:
http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/viewto ... 47&t=32454

trooper6, I like your demonstrations of all those different styles! I've had exactly the same sort of experience with tabletop games; I even catch myself slipping between third and first person when I'm playing, probably because when I'm speaking I'm providing dialogue as the character, but when they move and do stuff it's more like being a director.

I also never considered second person, mainly because I don't recall when I last saw it happen in an effective way.

Jason_OCE wrote:I also never considered second person, mainly because I don't recall when I last saw it happen in an effective way.

Second person is my preferred style. It was used in Coming Out on Top.

Fox Lee wrote:For me, it's about how defined the main character is. If it's supposed to be "me" - like an avatar of the player, not a character defined by the author - then first-person works well. But, if they're a well-defined character in their own right, and especially if they're on the screen where the other characters are, then I'm thinking of them as "they", and first-person narration seems weird.

This is almost exactly my opinion. On a similar note, it's strange when the MC is off-screen and you feel like you are the MC, yet there is third-person narration.

In relation to a narrative type exposition: I think showing your exposition rather than telling it is more effective (e.g. having aspects of your world become evident rather than explaining them). This way, you avoid any risk of boring learning or overload of information, and you can jump straight into the story. The disadvantage is greater difficulty in making the world clear and understandable, but I guess that's the art.

I'm very interested in this question and when I had a similar problem I made some kind of a focus group and asked different people I know about it. Of course, it's important to know the way you want to include the player in your game, but my small research showed that the 1st person narratives are always much better excepted.
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Fox Lee wrote:Still, in my ideal VN information would be conveyed mostly through dialogue and visuals, with narration involved only when necessary.

Fox Lee, you bring up something pretty interesting here and it prompted me to take a look at the script I've been working on. Glancing over the prologue, I realized I could probably remove all the narrative exposition and easily cover anything lost through dialogue.

Short example:

“Ah...Such a beautiful day. ”

“After the last week of nearly constant rain, I wanted to soak up as much sunlight as I could. However, I was under a bit of a time crunch and didn’t really have the luxury of going for a long stroll - My own fault for leaving a little late this morning. I decided to cut through the park leading to my destination. ”

“(I wonder how long this good weather will last. I haven’t checked the news report in a few days. Hm, maybe after I get off today, I can come back to the park and have a picnic lunch? That would be nice. Nothing too elaborate...)”

could easily become

“Ah...Such a beautiful day…Too bad I don't have a lot of time to enjoy it since I woke up late. I'll have to cut through the park to save some time!”

“(After all this rain we've had lately, I wonder how long this good weather will last. I haven’t checked the news report in a few days. Hm, maybe after I get off today, I can come back to the park and have a picnic lunch? That would be nice. Nothing too elaborate...)”

I honestly like the second significantly more, and may just try to write as cleanly as I can without much narration for the rest of the story.

It will probably be hard, however; I think it's just narration is comfortable so we tend to use it more. It's a useful tool to convey the surroundings. When people say "show versus tell" in traditional novel writing, what they are saying is to make the most of your narration. We *need* it to tell the story. However, in visual novels, we also have the art to back up our writing. I add a picture of a park to a scene - and now I don't need to describe the time of day, the greenery, whether there's a playground, etc. I don't need to tell you how happy character A is, his sprite is smiling for me. I wonder if part of the struggle also come from the fact that usually when an author is writing for a game, the art is not yet in hand - so you don't know if you need to describe something or if there will be art there for you to rely on? Haha, it does certainly eliminate the question of 1st person versus 3rd though!

quiltedcorgi wrote:It will probably be hard, however; I think it's just narration is comfortable so we tend to use it more. It's a useful tool to convey the surroundings. When people say "show versus tell" in traditional novel writing, what they are saying is to make the most of your narration. We *need* it to tell the story. However, in visual novels, we also have the art to back up our writing. I add a picture of a park to a scene - and now I don't need to describe the time of day, the greenery, whether there's a playground, etc. I don't need to tell you how happy character A is, his sprite is smiling for me.

That's definitely how I feel about it, too! I'm not saying that's the only valid way to construct a VN, but yeah... we have lots of visual and audio tools in addition to text, so even if we enjoy having narration (a perfectly valid preference!), we should still be mindful of how we can use those other tools to communicate. Not just sprites and BGs, but also animations/transitions, lighting, sound effects, background music, text size and weight/emphasis... everything the engine can do! And in how we present the dialogue, also - distinct "character voice" can say a whole lot about a character, and expressive use of punctuation and styles can help the reader understand the context and emotion behind a particular line of dialogue.

Come to think of it, I wonder, do people approach writing for a VN as if it's an actual novel? I always saw it as being more like making a comic book, trying to use every visual tool I can, in addition to the actual words. I'm sure that's not to everyone's tastes, but it interests me that I never even really thought about approaching it like prose.

( ACtually, now that I think about THAT, I should probably specify that my responses to this topic overall are thinking about "adventure mode" VNs (like, characters standing around delivering a script) rather than "novel mode" VNs (which follow a more conventional prose structure). I think I ignored the possibility of novel mode entirely when I started responding ^_^; For the record, I wasn't meaning to suggest that it'd be a good idea to try to minimise narration in that sort of game! )

I wonder if part of the struggle also come from the fact that usually when an author is writing for a game, the art is not yet in hand - so you don't know if you need to describe something or if there will be art there for you to rely on?

Yeah, I bet that comes up working with a larger group - I've only done solo projects so far, so I've always been in direct control of implementing everything. I guess I might see another side of it if I were working with somebody else's art or script! ^_^; I imagine word counts might factor into it, too, especially if the writer was being commissioned and the script was expected to come in at a predetermined size.

I was going to say that, primarily I see VNs done in first person - usually because the intention is to have the 'player' be in the shoes of the protagonist. That said, I think third person can work, but only if they are a Kinetic Novel - ie, a story that doesn't have any meaningful choices, if it has any choices to begin with.

The real question I suppose is, what is the role of the player? Are they merely an observer, or are they a participant? If they are an observer (which could be fun to play with), you could easily go with the third person perspective, because you are watching a character. If the player is a participant however, the choices they make are the choices the character makes, and it often works better as a first person perspective.

Of course, I can think of a couple ways this could be subverted, but I think it would take a lot of talent to pull it off (not to mention some creative use of game mechanics). Long Live The Queen comes to mind - I think that was mostly a third-person experience, but it still let you make certain choices as Elodie, despite the player really being more of an 'advisor' than Elodie herself.

There's always exceptions to the rules.

I personally like 3rd person when writing but I've decided to make my VN first person to feel more immersive. I'm having trouble with tenses though. I think I'm gonna stick with 1st past, even though I see a lot of present tense novels.