Is it worth it to "hide" long conversations behind choices?

[Aviala]

It was really hard to come up with a good title for this topic so let me explain. First of all, I'm using my own problems as an example but I encourage discussion about the subject in a broader way too instead of just focusing on helping me out.

So, I'm writing a dating sim where I want to have a lot of choices. Most of these choices will only change a few lines, and after that the story will return to the "main route". But now I've ended up with a situation where a pretty long, interactive conversation is hidden behind multiple choices.

First the player needs to choose to go to a party instead of going home. Then they need to drink shots at the bar instead of just beer. Because the character is drunk from the shots, they have the guts to talk about more risque stuff, which unlocks a new conversation option. And behind this new option is a longer, funny conversation that I imagine players would like a lot - I find it funny myself, at least. The player will also get more "love points" with the characters if they choose this option.

The structure goes somewhat like this (edit: this doesn't seem to show up properly):

computer games
/
main route -home - cooking with mom Character A points rise
\ /
party - shots - sexy question - Interesting conversation - Character B points rise
\
beer - normal question - Tidbits about the characters


The question is, is it "worth it" writing long branches like this where there are choices within choices? I find "drink shots, have more courage" pretty logical, but players could just as well think "I don't want my character to do stupid things so I'll just take the beer" and get the shorter conversation. Does branching like this have value to the player even if some branches are shorter than others? Would the path to the conversation make it feel like a reward or is it just way too much hassle?

Would it be good to give the player a hint, something like that the main character seldom gets stupid when he's drunk so they can make a more informed choice? Or should it be even more obvious, like "I'd probably have more courage to talk if I drank shots, but I might get a hangover"?

Also, another related problem. If the player decides to go home, the character will spend 2 hours sleeping on the train. When they get home, they can either play a computer game or help mom with food. Neither of these branches are very long, and even combined they're not as long as the bar scene. Is it bad to have branches where the other choice leads to a lot longer and potentially more interesting branch and the other choice leads to a short branch that will just give you some points with a character (in this case, a character who wasn't at the party)?
A similar problem rises when you just choose to drink beer instead of shots - you'll miss the big conversation just because a wrong choice of drinks. You'll get to know some other info about the characters though, like their favourite colour. Is it better to remove some choices altogether if I can't make all options equally interesting? But then again, some people might find a character's favourite colour more interesting than a long, flirty and funny conversation.

There are a lot of options: I could just cut the conversation and have it happen next time the characters go to a bar so that it'd be easier to achieve, and it would even out the lenght of the branches. But is it inherently wrong for certain conversations to be hard to achieve? Does it bring more value to the game or reduce it?

Feel free to go in depth about my problems and related things - I'd be interested to see what people think is the optimal way to use branches. I'm not expecting anyone to answer all of my questions (though if you want to, go ahead); they're there just as much to spark a conversation as to get me answers.

(EDIT: my beautiful graph is broken : ( )

[gekiganwing]

Does branching like this have value to the player even if some branches are shorter than others? Would the path to the conversation make it feel like a reward or is it just way too much hassle?

Think about what contributes to the story, characters, and world. Are there some segments which help the reader learn more, and appreciate your fictional world? Are there some which you consider optional, and the reader can skip? What parts should be left on the cutting room floor?

Would it be good to give the player a hint, something like that the main character seldom gets stupid when he's drunk so they can make a more informed choice?

It is possible to include blind choices in a visual novel. There might be times when they are appropriate -- if the main character does not know what could happen next, and/or the reader does not know what could happen next. Overall, I would recommend making sure that decisions in your story are not too obtuse.

Sometimes it's appropriate to clearly spell out what will occur as a result of the main character's decision. At other times it's a good idea to surprise the reader with an unintended outcome. Think about what would make sense for your story.

A related sidebar: In the recent past, I read Toradora Portable. It was enjoyable, though it had some problems. For instance, it was sometimes difficult to figure out which action lead to the story continuing, and which action eventually lead to a not-so-great ending. There were some decisions that lead directly to unexpected endings.

[MoonByte]

I would say that your way of doing it is actually legit.
I personally found - as an example - the drinking choice in "Coming Out On Top" more or less ridiculous. I don't drink, I didn't even know what half of the fluids on the list were and now I was supposed to pick one to impress a suitor based on how "adult" my choice is?
But that's life. Not joining on drinking does often end exactly how it does in your game, I can tell you :'D
You miss out on socialisation with those that want to drink with you or - if you take soft stuff - you MAY (not necessarily, I at least never had that issue) not say things that you otherwise would and thus bond with people. It is similar with all kinds of drugs in the end (I never had bonded as much with two of my classmates then when i had been high af on painkillers from a surgery and started talking about porn MMORPGs).
Plus, even though I personally would find it difficult to see wether beer or shots are a good decision (unless the character I want to impress asks me to do the latter), hiding a conversation there is legit. I sometimes have instances where you need to get five decisions right in a row and then you're stuck in a convo for 5 real time minutes while everything else pretty much ends with a "k thx bye".
ThatÄs how a lot of VNs just go

About the other option of going home not ending in long paths...
Honestly, I as a player would EXPECT that. Unless the mother is a character that you can deepen your relationship with considerably, I would totally expect that.
Even if it isn't: I help my mom whenever I visit her and after about 20 minutes at least, all topics have run dry and she watches some TV while I do my stuff. With friends, classmates, etc, I can talk for hours before that point is reached. After all, your mother had conversations with you for more years than you can remember, naturally it is a bit more...less-wordy. Unless the MC had moved out seven years ago and only visits mom once a year, there is no good reason why TONIGHT shall be the night to have a long heartfelt conversation.

So i think it's fine.

[Klawzie]

Nothing wrong with it, IMHO. That's what I'm writing right now myself, so of course I'd be in favor! xD But I'm more of a completionist player. I like to collect all endings and if it's a game I particularly like, I'll go back and choose all the paths just to see what happens. So with players like me, I probably will see everything, unless you can only get a certain scene by a combination alchemy that your average player wouldn't discover unless they knew there were missing scenes and are determined to get them.

I think that hints are nice. Many games have trained us to assume that answers are either "good", "bad", or "meh" and go with the one most likely to be "good". (Though from watching LPs of VNs, there are some people who go for the most "troll" options first, basically to see what happens.)

Personally, I'm not much of a drinker and being female I'm sort of "trained" to be cautious when drinking out (and am just generally a cautious person/player), so I probably would automatically assume that shots are a terrible idea (especially if they sound like the most tempting option because it seems like bait for a trap) and might leave the MC bleeding in the gutter. You can always signal beforehand that risks pay off with a less risky proposition so the player is more likely to select the more risky drink choice. (Especially if your theme is about taking risks.) Alternate ways to do it would be to have a tutorial (if your game is more sim-type) that suggests that not all paths are equal - from some, you'll learn more; in others, you'll learn different things. If your game is more story-type, you can do it with just a simple conversation with another character that encourages them to "try new things" or "take risks" or "let their hair down" (or however you want to put it that encourages certain choices that you really don't want missed and maybe underscores a theme of the game).

Even if your theme isn't at all about taking risks, I think it's fine to have more content available behind options that the average player might not choose. I mean - that's life. The road not taken - for good or for ill. Ideally, all roads in a VN would be interesting and worth reading in their own right, but if a writer consciously decides to make a path less interesting than the other possible paths, I'm down for it if it suits the story they're telling.

Right now, the story I'm working on is inspired by fairy tales. The heroine encounters a fairy and the story is all about a literal path they're taking together and literal crossroads they come to - and more-so about the way they connect as they walk. The story wants to have a happy ending, so the ruder options are intentionally not as "rewarding" to take. I do try to make them interesting, but there's more content behind the other options. (And I think it's more the rude conversations than the good that have flags that pop up later and change the tone of them.)

[Aviala]

Does branching like this have value to the player even if some branches are shorter than others? Would the path to the conversation make it feel like a reward or is it just way too much hassle?

Think about what contributes to the story, characters, and world. Are there some segments which help the reader learn more, and appreciate your fictional world? Are there some which you consider optional, and the reader can skip? What parts should be left on the cutting room floor?

Sometimes it's hard to decide which stuff is optional and which is not. For example, a certain character collecting stamps as a hobby might be an important fact about the character but does it really break the story if it's behind a choice? Probably not. But would it be better to have it in the main route? Maybe; it's hard to say sometimes.

MoonByte, I guess it's pretty logical that a night at home will be less exciting than going to a party. :') Also, I just played Coming Out on Top yesterday and found the drink choice a bit confusing as well - you're not the only one who didn't recognize all of the drinks. But I knew enough of them to make a somewhat informed choice.
What I hate is when not enough info is given and the choice just feels completely random - like eating lobster at a party and suddenly dying because it was poisoned. Can that happen in real life? Yeah, if you've got enemies. But should it happen in a game without any warning? I don't think so.

If there are blind choices they shouldn't usually lead to irreversible outcomes that couldn't have been predicted. Anyone can die at any time but is that kind of randomness fun in a game? Usually not (but there are exceptions, of course.)

I think that hints are nice. Many games have trained us to assume that answers are either "good", "bad", or "meh" and go with the one most likely to be "good". (Though from watching LPs of VNs, there are some people who go for the most "troll" options first, basically to see what happens.)

I think I'm gonna write a hint into the dialogue to suggest that some liquid courage might not be a bad idea. :')

I don't usually like it when there are only "good" and "bad" options. I like to mostly have choices where you find out different things with different choices. Of course there are some situations where it's better to do thing A instead of thing B but I usually hate it when thing A immediately leads to the good end and thing B leads to the bad end. I like it more when endings are determined by many choices and choosing "wrong" once or twice won't completely destroy everything.

Also... I have to admit that I love "troll" options when they're done right. There was a choice in Coming Out on Top whether I wanted to wear a silly top hat to a really fancy party or just play it cool, and choosing the hat was actually beneficial to my character on top of being funny.

You can always signal beforehand that risks pay off with a less risky proposition so the player is more likely to select the more risky drink choice. (Especially if your theme is about taking risks.) Alternate ways to do it would be to have a tutorial (if your game is more sim-type) that suggests that not all paths are equal - from some, you'll learn more; in others, you'll learn different things.

I don't know if risk-taking is a theme in my game; I guess it's more like "If you do stuff, you probably get more out of life." So I already have a lot of choices where doing stuff leads to more rewarding stuff than not doing stuff. I think it's pretty logical but then again I wonder if I'm pushing a world view where good and interesting things only happen to people who are really active. I think I'd like to balance it with nice and chill times if you choose to be more passive. Stuff that's rewarding but in a different way than always going to all the events, etc.

I think I need to find a good balance between taking risks and being active and finding value in rest and relaxation. Maybe some sort of a stress/tiredness meter that raises every time you try to do too much stuff. I'll have to think about it.

In a way, all of the choices have some kind of value in them: If you help your mom with chores, she'll give you more money and later on you can afford to go to a movie with your darling. If you go to the bar, you get friendship/love points with characters. But ultimately the party route is way more interesting from a story point of view if you like the characters. But I guess if the player likes the characters they'll choose to spend more time with them, right?

[MoonByte]

What I hate is when not enough info is given and the choice just feels completely random - like eating lobster at a party and suddenly dying because it was poisoned. Can that happen in real life? Yeah, if you've got enemies. But should it happen in a game without any warning? I don't think so.

I feel you, I really do.
THOUGH your example above did sound a lot more harmless. I mean, sure, if the tag was "drama" or if you warn about "serious topics" and at least one of the people that the MC would drink with, I MAY consider the possibility for rape or something, but other than that I saw no reason why such a -out of thin air- thing should happen in your example.
There aren't that many cases where such stupid things happen, being either comedies to begin with, such as "Escape the Prison/Fleeing the Complex/etc" where the laughs are generate by being as ridiculous as possible or cheap fanfic kinda stuff with Mary Sue-ing and so on.

[Klawzie]

I'm so paranoid in games, that I always assume it's possible. :'D But I'm also someone who gets uncomfortable if people are walking in the middle of the road (the busier it is, the more uncomfortable I get). That's where cars live! D: I try the "risky" options after I've already figured out how to get a good end. xD

I don't usually like it when there are only "good" and "bad" options. I like to mostly have choices where you find out different things with different choices. Of course there are some situations where it's better to do thing A instead of thing B but I usually hate it when thing A immediately leads to the good end and thing B leads to the bad end. I like it more when endings are determined by many choices and choosing "wrong" once or twice won't completely destroy everything.

I feel ya. Of course, with things "adding up" there are some times when that backfires. I remember I stopped playing a game when I got into a situation where literally every option available lead to death, presumably because I'd made enough bad choices before then that I couldn't save myself no matter what. Not trying to dissuade you from things adding up, of course, just something to keep in mind in case you do something that has "you can be murdered in the middle of the game at various check points". Up until that point, I'd thought I was doing well, because I didn't notice anything that indicated otherwise. >_<

[Kinjo]

The existence of a choice between shots and beer implies that there is a significantly different outcome between the two. Otherwise, why give the option? The perceptive reader would deduce that by drinking the shots they could get drunk, and as you explained, gain access to more interesting conversations. There's no need for any hints; it's self-evident. And the perceptive reader will be pleased to find that their deduction was spot-on.

For those who didn't figure it out the first time, it adds replay value once they're informed (be it from social media, walkthroughs, friends, etc.) that a longer branch exists, and they'll want to go check it out themselves. That's part of the fun of a branching story, isn't it? Some branches are longer than others, and finding those branches is rewarding.