"Dating Sim" with more then 'only Romance'

[philat]

Frankly didn't read the wall of text, but did read the question, which was "What do you think of reasonable friendship routes?" So that's what I replied to -- I think it's awesome when they exist, but do not expect them from the run-of-the-mill dating sim, because I'm jaded.

I also think it's somewhat easier to find outside of dating sims, particularly in games where there is an overarching plot other than relationships -- for instance, I greatly enjoy Bioware's take on companions in both the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series (some are better than others, obviously...) where you can either be friends or lovers with many of the characters, but the reason it works is that the focal point of the game is defeating the bad guy, not being a "dating sim" -- the 'defeating the bad guy' plot gives you enough forward momentum through the main arc, giving your characters tons of time to interact and establish relationships, and then friends/lovers/enemies is really more of icing on the cake. It's a shit ton of work either way, but Bioware has an easier time getting people to pay $60 a pop for the 50-hour RPG to fund dozens of writers for several years, you know?

I disagree that audiences don't ask for it. It's basically the most common complaint against dating sims or VNs in general -- that they're unrealistic (in myriad ways!) and therefore less fun, or less engaging, or even actively harmful. (Although of course there is always a counterargument that it's patent fantasy and there's nothing wrong with patent fantasy -- which I also agree with; I play these things, after all.) I think most people who are interested in making dating sims are also aware of it -- it's just not happening because, well, it's hard. That's basically my only point.

[Cakey]

@Cakey
I actually would disagree.
Of course, there are such and such players. There surely are those that get bored and don't care and just try to get their love interest to the ending without caring at all. But honestly, most of those players also don't care about that love interest. They are hunters, collectors. They just want something and probably only read the story of that interest with minor interest.
And to be honest: no matter what game I make, I am not aiming for such people as an audience anyway. I want players to like my characters, to understand them and their story. It is not about getting all the endings, it is about getting THEM to the ending. If you think that my characters can be ignored and that you can be rude since you don't care, then chances are that I will rig the game in a way that it will severely punish you for being cruel to them. Simply because that's how friendship is: if you are ugly to your friends, they will either get revenge and you'll suffer...or they leave you and you have to face life totally alone.
Oh, and they may tell your love interest as well, because nobody should have to date an asshole. Games with consequences are my personal favorite, so whoever thinks they can fuck a character of mine over will have to learn the hard way that I will shoot back.
And honestly, whenever a game does it to me when I am being disrespectful, I LOVE IT. I enjoy being punished for having been ignorant of someone else's hard work. When I had played a dating sim that had noticed that I had flirted with multiple girls until very late despite already having been in a certain love route, that dateable character told me that THEY KNOW and that I am the worst piece of shit before they deleted my save file because there was no way that the character could date someone that shamelessly flirts behind their back.
You may find that too much, I found that awesome and it inspired me greatly.

I would say, there are players like that and PEOPLE like that. I mean that If you have for example otome game when the protagonist is a lady and she can date several guys... actually in real life guys don't really want to befriend the girl. It makes them frustrated if they find her attractive and they have to stop on friendship. In the other hand, girls willingly befriend a guy. There are of course types of guys that likes girls as a friends and girls that prefers a girl friend over guy, but mostly, If you want to have realistic relationship you have to include natural preferences that people have in real life.

I am person who isn't really satisfied with most of romances, and friendships matter even less for me, because they seem exeptionally fake in VNs. If I have possibility I am flirting with everyone because like you said, no one punishes me for this. And guess what... I HATE IT! I hate that whatever protagonist usually does, dosn't matter. But I hate as well when I don't really have a chance to know people that I want to date. Most VS requires you to choose you love interest before you get to know him enough to be sure who do you like the most. Isn't that ironic? And how you can really show the real friendship? What would make friendship seem REAL? I found only one game where I really loved the friendship. The guy was also attractive type. It was Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark and the guy was Valen Shadowbreath. I think that that relationship was unique because he chose to be loyal to the end even, If he didn't really thrust that you won't betray him. He is truly very real character. Every time I played that game, I had a feeling that I met real person.

I usually don't play VS for a story but for the romance. If story happens to be awesome I get the dish that I like more than pile of sweets: The Plot. I would say that my favourite VNs: Aloners, Cupid made me want to explore world and plot, not enjoy actual romance, and I loved it! I would say that having romance just makes people interested without a lot of effort nor skills from the writer. I am kind of pessimist abut that so I write like this is kind of impossible to do that. Beside that, to do anything that is really good, you have to have strong story behind it. No relationship is interesting without plot. Slices of life isn't the most interesting topic too. There are so many things that can go wrong... that I just can say that it is really almost impossible to do VS with romancable characters who can be your real friends.

[Klawzie]

All I can say is I hope I can successfully pull off what I intend in the game I'm working on right now. In my game, the hero can be either your friend or your potential lover. I don't want to make either option feel like the "wrong" or "lesser" version. The whole point of the game is that exploration of getting to know him and open up to him in different ways.

From all the people who insist that guys and girls can't be friends, it almost starts to become a fantasy to have a game that lets you "just" be friends if that's what you want, doesn't it? I just know that when I play romance visual novels, there are always characters I really like but don't see as "dating potential". (It's almost always the "shouta" hero.) I want to get to know them and feel that closeness without hurting them/leading them on (since they are, after all, programmed to want to love you - and unlike IRL there's almost never the chance they'll fall in love with someone else and be able to be "just" friends without being attracted to you in that way). And many people tell or show different things to only-friends than to potential-lovers, so there's the attraction of learning something different about someone. (And, no, I'm not saying your partner shouldn't be your best friend, but that's a separate issue from what I'm actually talking about.)

I always tend to find the claim, "Guys can't be friends with girls - if they like you, they'll want to bone you." rather... hurtful? Certainly, it's limiting because it keeps people from making connections. It makes a relationship a dead end, because you now can't be friends with anyone who might possibly be briefly attracted to you or your partner. It almost makes it "excusable" if someone strays. It becomes terribly isolating for the couple and, honestly, I think it makes it easier to stray when they have to leave their partner behind to spend time with their friends. And if your friends only hear you venting about the things that drive you nuts about your partner and they have no context, honestly? I've seen friends groups encourage straying in those cases. I think it's much healthier to have friends of both genders - even if you find yourself a little attracted to them - because you just let it go because the friendship is the important part. (And anyone who doesn't let their attraction go and isn't in an open relationship agreed upon by all parties needs to know when to disengage from one relationship or the other.)

[Cakey]

All I can say is I hope I can successfully pull off what I intend in the game I'm working on right now. In my game, the hero can be either your friend or your potential lover. I don't want to make either option feel like the "wrong" or "lesser" version. The whole point of the game is that exploration of getting to know him and open up to him in different ways.

From all the people who insist that guys and girls can't be friends, it almost starts to become a fantasy to have a game that lets you "just" be friends if that's what you want, doesn't it? I just know that when I play romance visual novels, there are always characters I really like but don't see as "dating potential". (It's almost always the "shouta" hero.) I want to get to know them and feel that closeness without hurting them/leading them on (since they are, after all, programmed to want to love you - and unlike IRL there's almost never the chance they'll fall in love with someone else and be able to be "just" friends without being attracted to you in that way). And many people tell or show different things to only-friends than to potential-lovers, so there's the attraction of learning something different about someone. (And, no, I'm not saying your partner shouldn't be your best friend, but that's a separate issue from what I'm actually talking about.)

I always tend to find the claim, "Guys can't be friends with girls - if they like you, they'll want to bone you." rather... hurtful? Certainly, it's limiting because it keeps people from making connections. It makes a relationship a dead end, because you now can't be friends with anyone who might possibly be briefly attracted to you or your partner. It almost makes it "excusable" if someone strays. It becomes terribly isolating for the couple and, honestly, I think it makes it easier to stray when they have to leave their partner behind to spend time with their friends. And if your friends only hear you venting about the things that drive you nuts about your partner and they have no context, honestly? I've seen friends groups encourage straying in those cases. I think it's much healthier to have friends of both genders - even if you find yourself a little attracted to them - because you just let it go because the friendship is the important part. (And anyone who doesn't let their attraction go and isn't in an open relationship agreed upon by all parties needs to know when to disengage from one relationship or the other.)

Well I certainly don't stand on position saying that guys and girls can't be friends. It is just that MOST man would really say that being real friend with a girl that they are really attracted to is impossible for them. So I claim that it actually depends on opinion that certain character have and his personality rather than just a some kind of experienced "truth" that people have and say as an argument for not doing it as part of a story or game. It depends on the guy AND the girl if they are able to be REAL FRIENDS or JUST FRIENDS(which is just pretty name for dying relationship).

I think that friendship and relationships between sexes are very hard topic to handle and with desire to make game feel real, we have to admit and boldly show that people have different opinions and different personalities, not just shells with the same filling like most writers tend to make(because they just can't think outside their own box).

[MoonByte]

It is just that MOST man would really say that being real friend with a girl that they are really attracted to is impossible for them.

Still don't see the problem.
You know why?
Unless the story specifically does something like "Childhood friend that had been in love with you till kindergarden", the possible love interests rarely ever KNOW you, even less are attracted.
Sure, they may find you attractIVE, but there is a difference. I find plenty people attractive, even those that aren't even fitting with my sexuality. But being attracted to someone takes a bit more than that. Which is why I have little to no trouble in my friend circle - which consists of males and females (and two transgenders).

Which is exactly my point (and I assume, Klawzie's):
If you meet someone, a total stranger, the game gives you the chance to NEVER get into that path of "being attracted" and instead allows you to be a friend. Sure, your character and that stranger may find the other pretty/sexy/whatnot
But unless you make either of the characters a nymphomaniac that literally wants to nail whatever isn't ugly and running away screaming the moment they see them, then I really see no issue with it.
I mean, if it were as extreme as "no man could ever befriend a attractive woman", then I would honestly question how half of humanities population gets through school, college, university and/or work. Because if you spend multiple hours of every day of your life with a set group of people and go out of your way to ignore those three pretty people, then you will DEFINITELY end up being targeted by them and by everyone else (since it will be interpreted as bullying which actually isn't that far off).
I have seen plenty of friendships between all genders (I even know guys that ONLY befriend women and vice versa since they feel uncomfortable with being around their own sex) and unless I look for the stereotypical macho guy that acts like he has balls as big as melons, I've yet got to find someone that REALLY believes that without being a internet troll that puts that as a sexist comment under whatever section allows him to.

[Cakey]

It is just that MOST man would really say that being real friend with a girl that they are really attracted to is impossible for them.

Still don't see the problem.
You know why?
Unless the story specifically does something like "Childhood friend that had been in love with you till kindergarden", the possible love interests rarely ever KNOW you, even less are attracted.
Sure, they may find you attractIVE, but there is a difference. I find plenty people attractive, even those that aren't even fitting with my sexuality. But being attracted to someone takes a bit more than that. Which is why I have little to no trouble in my friend circle - which consists of males and females (and two transgenders).

Which is exactly my point (and I assume, Klawzie's):
If you meet someone, a total stranger, the game gives you the chance to NEVER get into that path of "being attracted" and instead allows you to be a friend. Sure, your character and that stranger may find the other pretty/sexy/whatnot
But unless you make either of the characters a nymphomaniac that literally wants to nail whatever isn't ugly and running away screaming the moment they see them, then I really see no issue with it.
I mean, if it were as extreme as "no man could ever befriend a attractive woman", then I would honestly question how half of humanities population gets through school, college, university and/or work. Because if you spend multiple hours of every day of your life with a set group of people and go out of your way to ignore those three pretty people, then you will DEFINITELY end up being targeted by them and by everyone else (since it will be interpreted as bullying which actually isn't that far off).
I have seen plenty of friendships between all genders (I even know guys that ONLY befriend women and vice versa since they feel uncomfortable with being around their own sex) and unless I look for the stereotypical macho guy that acts like he has balls as big as melons, I've yet got to find someone that REALLY believes that without being a internet troll that puts that as a sexist comment under whatever section allows him to.

If we are discussing that topic: about man and woman being friends, this is really very personal thing. That's why that claim has two sides. Because there is actually two sides. People who thinks and acts that way and people who aren't. That is how world works. People are different and have very varied opinions.
If we are talking about school. Well... in English "friend" is actually someone who are you kind to, someone who isn't your enemy basically. In my native language you use term colleague to someone like that. Friend is someone who sticks with you and who is always frank with you, not just kid that you see every day and when school ends he disappears from your life. You can be colleague with everyone, because you don't have to really know them to be their colleague. It dosen't matter if someone is pretty or not. But actually when you are trying to really know someone and befriend him and be completely sincere, not hide things from him, attraction to him destroys it. Why? Because there are actually three possible options:
1. You are frank to him, he accepts your feelings and you start building romantic relationship.
2. He dosn't feel the same thing towards you so rejection makes you and him actually hide your real feelings, and frendship is dying.
3. The side who feels more after rejection are able to express himself properly and in the same time the other side is not turning away from him. Both people heals their wounds and have even deeper relationship. Usually it is kind of impossible thing to achieve depending on people, their situations, temperament and other factors. Really nearly impossible scenario.

I know actually one person who for sure thinks that friendship between man and woman is impossible with all that consequences.

This is actually source for interesting data about what girls and guys is thinking about friendship like that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYQmqxQgEBY

I actually believe that girls are actually quite naive about friendship between both sexes. I just think that people try to so hard prove that everything are equal and that everyone thinks in politically correct way or SHOULD think in politically correct way, that they miss the truth.

I think that friendship is the best way to find the other half. People are friends because they like the other person. It dosn't make friendship worse if there is possibility for it to become romantic relationship. It is just extremely hard to remain friends if romantic interest is one sided and really strong which is not rare case in VS and if romantic attraction comes from both sides... it just starts to be romantic relationship.

[namastaii]

Weird you posted this. This is basically how it works in my game I'm working on (if I understood correctly)
you meet people..and you either interact with them in a way you want to be friends or lovers but you can't unless their sexual orientation is directed toward your gender. You can also become enemies with someone. Not necessarily something you may do on purpose. You may just do stuff that in turn makes a person dislike you more over time. Maybe your signs clash. lol

I didn't read EVERYTHING, especially the other posts on here. sorry for that.

[MoonByte]

I actually believe that girls are actually quite naive about friendship between both sexes. I just think that people try to so hard prove that everything are equal and that everyone thinks in politically correct way or SHOULD think in politically correct way, that they miss the truth.

In case you tried to imply that I am naive: I am a guy, thank you very much :/

I truly and honestly think that it is possible to befriend people of the other sex. And the guys I am friends with would agree. But maybe it is more a cultural thing than a gender thing? At least here where I live, I rarely actually see sexism as in catcalling, aggressive flirting or the whole "friendzone" issue. Just people being friends unless they're not

@namastaii
Ooooooh!
I totally forgot about the possibility to become enemies!
Huh, that's also an interesting prospect...
If you are too rude to someone, then events may be set off that would result in those characters ruining your social life or other things.
I really need to think about that, it sounds definitely intriguing!

[namastaii]

I totally forgot about the possibility to become enemies!
Huh, that's also an interesting prospect...
If you are too rude to someone, then events may be set off that would result in those characters ruining your social life or other things.
I really need to think about that, it sounds definitely intriguing!

Yeah, all of it sounds fun to mess around with

Cakey:

Also, I am rarely friends with girls and have plenty guy friends... Why are girls naive? And yes, I'm a girl.
Also, if two friends like each other and want to date.. I don't see the problem here? It's bad that a friendship evolved into something more?
I've had one-sided situations as well and I can honestly say that people get over it. And they can still be your friend unless they're immature and willing to lose a good friend over something stupid like that.
What about people who are bi-sexual? Are they just doomed to never have friends? You're not making a very good argument. (also, I am bisexual)

[Cakey]

I actually believe that girls are actually quite naive about friendship between both sexes. I just think that people try to so hard prove that everything are equal and that everyone thinks in politically correct way or SHOULD think in politically correct way, that they miss the truth.

In case you tried to imply that I am naive: I am a guy, thank you very much :/

I truly and honestly think that it is possible to befriend people of the other sex. And the guys I am friends with would agree. But maybe it is more a cultural thing than a gender thing? At least here where I live, I rarely actually see sexism as in catcalling, aggressive flirting or the whole "friendzone" issue. Just people being friends unless they're not

@namastaii
Ooooooh!
I totally forgot about the possibility to become enemies!
Huh, that's also an interesting prospect...
If you are too rude to someone, then events may be set off that would result in those characters ruining your social life or other things.
I really need to think about that, it sounds definitely intriguing!

Well, I didn't say that it is impossible to befriend a opposite sex person. I just think it is naive to think that someone who you rejected would be(or would like to be) your real friend, and vice versa. It is natural to be friend if you like someone but not in sexual way. If we are stepping in physical attraction zone it gets complicated and people stop being straightforward to each other, which makes friendship actually very hard to continue. We shouldn't forget about being hurt after rejection. It is very hard to be friend to someone which whom you can't be sincere, who hurt you in deep emotional way and probably starts pushing you away from him. Rejecting someone makes you uncomfortable around that person. It dosn't help friendship too. We just can't ignore those things. If there is romance, possibilities of friendship are, in my opinion, naturally limited.

Namastaii:
I stand on position that maintaining real friend is quite time consuming if you are seeing him/her daily. Maybe you mean, by having friends, that you just hang out with those people? I see being friends as much more deep relationship than just spending great time with some people. As I said, there is no problem for me if friends decide to date as you could read in my post above. It depends on situation but if you really invest a lot of your feelings in someone... I see it as completely understandable to feel hurt after rejection. Maintaining contact is not equal to friendship too. Most people who says that they are "just friends" just calls dying relationship with more pretty way. As I explained before, in English actually being friend means that someone is not your enemy. It means that calling someone a friend in lets say USA is nothing more as just not hating this person. With that terminology everyone is friends with everyone, so it actually means NOTHING to me. I am talking about deep relationships.

If we use the definition of friend as not your enemy the friendship is actually very common thing is VNs. But if we stick with opinion that this word defines deep, not romantic relationship it gets more complicated to be friends with people of opposite sex.

[namastaii]

No...I talk to my close guy friends on a daily basis. I think you're the one being naive lol
It just sounds like you got butthurt in a situation or two and this is your outlook for everyone else.
No offense.
I have one guy friend I talk to every day, we text and facebook chat etc. We talk about almost everything. I'm married so there is no room for a relationship or tension to grow. Though, he was my friend before I was married. I am also really good friends with a couple of my ex-boyfriends. It's not that hard to be a mature person and maintain friendships with someone you care about.

[sunwave]

To reply to a post from a while ago:
Yes, you understood my system correctly: I basically have 1 route for each 'love interest character'. To successfully get to the end of the route you need to 1) Have a good relationship with them (friendly OR loving, but NOT uninterested/jerkass), and 2) Have an okay relationship with at least one of their friends (because you will need backup sooner or later). Near the end, the 'only 1 route' for the character splits up between friends or lovers. Also there's a good/medium/bad check for each secondary character and they get scenes.

So you can (usually) choose to be a jerkass to ANY character except your main interest. (You will get a good/neutral/bad check for each character, so it still has impact)
You can NOT choose to be a jerkass to ALL characters except your main interest. (Since you will die or otherwise get a bad ending if you have no support in critical scenes)

Your way of doing things seems really interesting as well. It's especially nice how you seperated the 'type of relationship' (love vs friend) from the 'level of relationship' (affection). Seems like a smart way to do it, especially if it's a fully romance based story. You're completely right that normally, a lover or a friend will have a lot of the same kind of interactions, especially in public settings. You are together, doing stuff together and you obviously like each other on some level, even if you are friends. The most intimate things will not be said or acted out in public either. With your system, it's not really a problem if there's different kinds of relationships with the same kinds of scenes. You can just add a few small lines that change the overall feel of the scene.

Since my novel is also mystery based ('what is going on', not 'what happened'), small changes in relationships might actually have a pretty big outcome on the overall story, so I tried to keep the options relatively limited, without making it feel like there is no input. However, I also didn't want them to matter too much. (Which is how I came up with: You have to pick at least one 'extra' friend (related to the LI) to care about + being not nice will grand 'sad' endings for the neglected characters).

Can boys and girls be friends?
Short answer: Yes, some of them can. Personally (as a guy) I know a few girls that I hang out with, find attractive, but definitely wouldn't want to be in any kind of romantic (or physical) relationship with. I have been friends with them for several years and there is no problem or drama in either direction (Yes, I'm sure of that).
There are also girls I can't be friends with at all, because I would like them too much.

So basically:
Sometimes you can be friends with the other sex because neither of you is attractive to the other one. (If you're not attracted, the gender doesn't matter that much)
Sometimes you can be friends with the other sex despite the fact you both are attractive to the other. (Personal experience proves as much)
Sometimes you can not be friends with the other sex because one or both of you would feel romantic feelings and only get hurt if it wasn't reciprocated. (What some people seem to think is the only option)

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of another discussion I once had; Is it possible to truly love multiple people? But that is one for another time (still interesting, though)

[gekiganwing]

I also think it's somewhat easier to find outside of dating sims, particularly in games where there is an overarching plot other than relationships ... the 'defeating the bad guy' plot gives you enough forward momentum through the main arc, giving your characters tons of time to interact and establish relationships, and then friends/lovers/enemies is really more of icing on the cake.

Having an interesting general plot is often a good idea. The characters might start focused on finding treasure or preventing a war. Later on, they might start to care about each other as possible love interests. Also, strongly consider letting the characters have multiple goals to achieve.

If you choose to focus on video game mechanics, then think about what sort of general gameplay you want to make. Figure out how it will be enjoyable, and playtest it extensively. A brief off-topic comment:

I wanted to like Fire Emblem Awakening, which is a strategy RPG that includes fictional character shipping. Unfortunately, I found even the easy mode of the game to be too difficult. Also, I had positive things to say about Sakura Wars 5, but I preferred the conversation segments and the walking-around-town segments to the strategy RPG gameplay.

... it almost starts to become a fantasy to have a game that lets you "just" be friends if that's what you want, doesn't it? I just know that when I play romance visual novels, there are always characters I really like but don't see as "dating potential"... I want to get to know them and feel that closeness without hurting them/leading them on (since they are, after all, programmed to want to love you...

Let the main character decide if an NPC will be a love interest or a support character. This could be done with just a single decision in which the reader can choose "I just see you as a friend." Or it could be done through roleplaying. In other words, let the player's interactions gradually determine who the main character's friends, allies, love interest, and foes will be.

Consider thinking that everyone other than the protagonist is a support character. They have a role in the story. However, it doesn't matter whether they care about the protag as a friend or a love interest. Let them be interesting fictional characters first and foremost.

[MoonByte]

Yes, you understood my system correctly: I basically have 1 route for each 'love interest character'. To successfully get to the end of the route you need to 1) Have a good relationship with them (friendly OR loving, but NOT uninterested/jerkass), and 2) Have an okay relationship with at least one of their friends (because you will need backup sooner or later). Near the end, the 'only 1 route for the character splits up between friends or lovers. Also there's a good/medium/bad check for each secondary character and they get scenes.

Sounds a bit like the newer "Harvest Moon System". To marry character X, you also need to befriend their parents, because if they hate you it will obviously make the character question, if it will work out. Of course one can make this strong or light, maybe add an extra event that would allow to clear the tension despite a low relationship.
But I really like the idea of how getting close to a secondary character would benefit the love with the main character. Without wanting to sound too stereotypical, but from what I've seen, a lot of girls for example often depend on the opinion of their best friend regarding dating someone and if that friend really hates that person, the chance that the girl agrees on a relationship drops significantly. So it's at least pretty realistic xD

Your way of doing things seems really interesting as well. It's especially nice how you seperated the 'type of relationship' (love vs friend) from the 'level of relationship' (affection). Seems like a smart way to do it, especially if it's a fully romance based story.[/quote]
My thought was simply that some choices are obviously somewhat obscure in whether they raise love or friendship (Is "make a joke" more romantic than "laugh at joke"?), so there should be one stat that always goes up and simply meassures how your general relationship is going. If wanted, then the developer can always make the player decide later, if it should be a friendship or love, but keeping track of how much the characters enjoy each others presence does simplify a lot in my opinion to keep it real. If love is 3 out of 4, but affection is only 10 out of 60, then the character will most likely not ask for a date, because they will not be swayed by a few smooth flirt attempts while being a total asshole otherwise.

For some reason, this discussion reminds me of another discussion I once had; Is it possible to truly love multiple people? But that is one for another time (still interesting, though)

Heh, well, feel free to open a discussion thread about the mulitple-lovers-option, I would definitely join that one xD

Let the main character decide if an NPC will be a love interest or a support character. This could be done with just a single decision in which the reader can choose "I just see you as a friend." Or it could be done through roleplaying. In other words, let the player's interactions gradually determine who the main character's friends, allies, love interest, and foes will be.

While liking the latter, I still think it might be a bit difficult and vague at times.
I am all for proper roleplaying, giving the MC a bit of my own thoughts and stuff. But as shown with the joke example above, you either are still very obvious ("Hey baby~" or "Hey bud!") or very obstruse ("Fruits are good for you" [friendship +1] or "I'm more a cucumber person" [love +1]). I noticed it in my own menus that some of the choices where I give love points are obvious FOR ME since I really know the characters and their tastes well, but I doubt that a player would really get them without a walkthrough or playing through most options multiple times.
Which is of course somewhat realistic, but if there never is a "Hey, wanna date?"-question, it might still be confusing or frustrating for the player, if they end up being friendzoned when trying to romance or are suddenly in a love relationship with their BFF. So I'd say, a middle way might be the best way to go? Do lots of roleplay, but at least at one point allow the player to clarify their intentions with the other character. If the total points of affection isn't high enough, then the character can say so, but depending on how vague the choices are, it would be quite unfair to lock them out from romance because they decided that blue is a better color than green :'D

[Hazel-Bun]

I think introducing some sort of clarifier is important. Even in real life if someone never admits they like you, that's a confusing and sometimes startling (in a bad way) revelation, if they all of a sudden start coming onto you. As a player, I'd be overwhelmed if I was blindly choosing they said "let's make out" or "I'm not into you" if I made a move, you know? So I agree you have to have some on the nose choices but, some obscure ones as well. Maybe even introduce some dialogue along the way that lets you know you're veering down a certian path. Good luck!