Multiverse concept and linked universes

[dfbreezy]

So what I've done is I've linked the universe of Episicava and Rainbow Dreams together. This has allowed me to improve on both stories and enhance their relativity factor.

I'm not going to go too deep into what I've done. I'm just here today to see what other writers think about when handling multiversal/linked universes between their games.

Before you reply please note:
1. I have already fleshed out my multiverse and solidified it
2. There are no writing defects
3. I'm not asking for criticism about how I've linked them or for a lecture.(i'm not trying to be rude.. just that some people tend to mistake and/or take it too far when replying.)

Please reply with your thoughts on how you feel as a writer or reader of multiversal concepts or how you applied them to your games. Thanks!

[Parataxis]

Multiverses are pretty interesting, and are potentially a really cool way to get the most story out of your assets. I've always though that the use of the multiverse in Amnesia: Memories, the Otome game, for the different routes was a really inspired idea--if the execution wasn't my favorite. But there are a ton of different ways to implement multiverses into your fiction.

That said, I tend to write single-use characters for stories with vastly different settings and themes so linking multiple works is tricky and ultimately not worth it beyond cameo usually. But I am a fan of the co-fictional universe multiverses--ie two works where each is a work of fiction inside the other.

[dfbreezy]

But I am a fan of the co-fictional universe multiverses--i.e two works where each is a work of fiction inside the other.

That's certainly the interesting concept. Two stories where one is fictional in the other... interesting.

That being said, Multiverses are hard to manage... with that i agree with you. Balancing the logic/realistic concepts of your multiverse along side making it original is difficult. Roping in the multiverse and having it bend to your will however gives way to more content. an example would be Rewrite's moon and Terra routes, Tokyo Babels concept of multiverses and Fate/Hollow Ataraxia which was a conglomerate of multiverses.

[Kuiper]

If you have separate worlds for separate series that you're linking through a "multiverse" thing, I certainly want this to feel like an optional part of the experience, except for works that are specifically about the multiverse aspect of the universe.

In other words, if you have work A and work B that are incidentally part of the same multiverse, I want to feel like I can read work A completely independently of work B, and not be missing out on anything significant in the story because I'm not reading everything. Maybe you have some superfans, the kind of people who are hyper-analytical and looking for the small hints of how the universes are linked, and these people go to forums to discuss this thing and read wikis on it, but you need to realize that the vast, vast majority of your readers are NOT going to fall into this category. Once you've had a chance to establish the universes and cultivate an active fanbase that is following you and cares about this stuff, then you can start getting into works that are specifically about what unifies these worlds, but when I'm looking at a first-time author and I'm unsure of whether I'm going to like them or not, the word "epic" can actually be a huge turnoff. It's really hard to commit to reading a 10-book series from an author I'm unfamiliar with.

Furthermore, the grim reality about most visual novels is that many of them fail to see release, so my hesitance to start reading part 1 of a 10-part VN series comes not only from the fact that I'm unsure whether it will good, but also from the fact that I'm unsure whether part 2-10 will actually be released. So that's another point in favor of compartmentalizing the series: it gives me more confidence that at the very least the mini-series that I'm reading will actually be completed (and if it's a standalone, then even better), and then if I like it I can see how you tie it into the larger multiverse.

For an example of how I think this can be done right, you can look at Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, which encompasses many of his fantasy series, including Mistborn, Elantris, and Stormlight Archive, which are all set in distinctive universes that, at first glance, seem to be completely independent works. (In reality, each of them is set on a different planet in the same galaxy.) I'd hazard a guess that the majority of Sanderson's readers still don't even know that the Cosmere exists, as I've read most of Sanderson's novels and I didn't really become aware of the Cosmere until I started browsing fan forums and Q&A sessions at conventions where other people started asking questions about the Cosmere, so right now the connections between the different series in the Cosmere universe mostly manifest themselves as Easter eggs, but they're never plot critical things, and very easy to ignore or miss entirely. Sanderson says that he plans to eventually do another series that acts as a prequel to everything, and explains how it is that the universe's magics became fractured into different shards, but for now the Cosmere is something that's mostly just discussed on forums and wikis by the most obsessive of fans. Here is a transcription of a Q&A panel where he answered a question from a fan, explaining the process that drove him to develop the Cosmere as he did in the first place, and how he approaches it in his writing.

[TheJerminator15]

I'm honestly 50/50 on multiverses. In a lot of shows I have seen and other media I have consumed, multiverses tend to just be thrown in for things such as having happy endings where everyone is nice, safe and alive or to basically absolve all consequences. On the other hand, you have examples like the Nasuverse, where Kinoko Nasu has spent years building up the rules and logic throughout multiple works and having it be this insanely detailed multiverse where anything can and will happen. However the main problem with going the Nasuverse route is introducing new fans is insanely mind boggling and hard, which turns newcomers off immensely because they have no clue what you're talking about in story. Hell, I'm a Nasuverse fan and have been for quite a while but still am constantly learning about more and more aged or obscure releases he has made which fit in and expand it even more.

In commercial terms, Nasu has also taken full advantage of implementing a multiverse by creating and authorizing tons of spin offs. Commercially, multiverses are amazing for bringing in new and fresh ideas to an already established franchise and universe. It draws in new fans with these different types of stories whilst also bringing in content for long time fans.

Me personally, it depends on the world/universe I'm building. For the main project I'm writing currently, I decided to have it be a cyclicar universe where it eventually implodes and then creates a new one, with the opportunity to temporarily create branching versions of that one world available (though they also implode incredibly quickly). This allows me to keep the logic and rules consistent and also leaves room for extra additions in the future in sequels, prequels and spin offs. But it also removes the ability for characters in the story to just jump to another universe and try again, because they can't that removes my big gripe with multiverses whilst keeping a lot of the positive elements I like from them.

My execution and implementation for this universe and it's predecessors/successors is simply easter eggs at the moment. Such as a book one character had possession of during his world imploding appearing in another seemingly unrelated universe. I have no idea how many VNs I will eventually create in that specific brand/under that name so I would much rather just leave little hints and easter eggs for the hardcore fans who are incredibly invested, with the possibility of eventually outright explaining how it all fits together in say an extra feature dedicated to it in a future VN if the demand is big enough. I don't want the "lore" to become such a big part of the brand or my writing that I have to purposefully change my stories just to make it fit into the logic of this specific lore I'd previously written which is why I plan to keep it far more ambiguous at the beginning and just only outline it's logic for fans if demand is there.

[Katy133]

This thread might interest you, since it relates to the multiverse concept. I also give some of my though on the concept in the beginning post.

[dfbreezy]

If you have separate worlds for separate series that you're linking through a "multiverse" thing, I certainly want this to feel like an optional part of the experience, except for works that are specifically about the multiverse aspect of the universe.

In other words, if you have work A and work B that are incidentally part of the same multiverse, I want to feel like I can read work A completely independently of work B, and not be missing out on anything significant in the story because I'm not reading everything. Maybe you have some superfans, the kind of people who are hyper-analytical and looking for the small hints of how the universes are linked, and these people go to forums to discuss this thing and read wikis on it, but you need to realize that the vast, vast majority of your readers are NOT going to fall into this category. Once you've had a chance to establish the universes and cultivate an active fanbase that is following you and cares about this stuff, then you can start getting into works that are specifically about what unifies these worlds, but when I'm looking at a first-time author and I'm unsure of whether I'm going to like them or not, the word "epic" can actually be a huge turnoff. It's really hard to commit to reading a 10-book series from an author I'm unfamiliar with.

Furthermore, the grim reality about most visual novels is that many of them fail to see release, so my hesitance to start reading part 1 of a 10-part VN series comes not only from the fact that I'm unsure whether it will good, but also from the fact that I'm unsure whether part 2-10 will actually be released. So that's another point in favor of compartmentalizing the series: it gives me more confidence that at the very least the mini-series that I'm reading will actually be completed (and if it's a standalone, then even better), and then if I like it I can see how you tie it into the larger multiverse.

For an example of how I think this can be done right, you can look at Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, which encompasses many of his fantasy series, including Mistborn, Elantris, and Stormlight Archive, which are all set in distinctive universes that, at first glance, seem to be completely independent works. (In reality, each of them is set on a different planet in the same galaxy.) I'd hazard a guess that the majority of Sanderson's readers still don't even know that the Cosmere exists, as I've read most of Sanderson's novels and I didn't really become aware of the Cosmere until I started browsing fan forums and Q&A sessions at conventions where other people started asking questions about the Cosmere, so right now the connections between the different series in the Cosmere universe mostly manifest themselves as Easter eggs, but they're never plot critical things, and very easy to ignore or miss entirely. Sanderson says that he plans to eventually do another series that acts as a prequel to everything, and explains how it is that the universe's magics became fractured into different shards, but for now the Cosmere is something that's mostly just discussed on forums and wikis by the most obsessive of fans. Here is a transcription of a Q&A panel where he answered a question from a fan, explaining the process that drove him to develop the Cosmere as he did in the first place, and how he approaches it in his writing.

That is some really great insight. Personally i'm someone who loves the idea of the multiversal concept, so i'd probably be one to the super-fans you talked about.

As a reader, knowing that there are multiple versions of the story i'm reading makes me wonder and think deeply about the structuring and outcomes. Even with stories that are slice of life only and have no linkage to this concept, i automatically perceive the separate heroine routes that are derived from the same common route as alternate universes. Even more so when they select one route as the true route.

I haven read any of Sanderson's books, but you talking about it has certainly piqued my interest. Any suggestions as to where i could get a copy and the order in which i should read it?

[dfbreezy]

I'm honestly 50/50 on multiverses. In a lot of shows I have seen and other media I have consumed, multiverses tend to just be thrown in for things such as having happy endings where everyone is nice, safe and alive or to basically absolve all consequences. On the other hand, you have examples like the Nasuverse, where Kinoko Nasu has spent years building up the rules and logic throughout multiple works and having it be this insanely detailed multiverse where anything can and will happen. However the main problem with going the Nasuverse route is introducing new fans is insanely mind boggling and hard, which turns newcomers off immensely because they have no clue what you're talking about in story. Hell, I'm a Nasuverse fan and have been for quite a while but still am constantly learning about more and more aged or obscure releases he has made which fit in and expand it even more.

In commercial terms, Nasu has also taken full advantage of implementing a multiverse by creating and authorizing tons of spin offs. Commercially, multiverses are amazing for bringing in new and fresh ideas to an already established franchise and universe. It draws in new fans with these different types of stories whilst also bringing in content for long time fans.

Me personally, it depends on the world/universe I'm building. For the main project I'm writing currently, I decided to have it be a cyclicar universe where it eventually implodes and then creates a new one, with the opportunity to temporarily create branching versions of that one world available (though they also implode incredibly quickly). This allows me to keep the logic and rules consistent and also leaves room for extra additions in the future in sequels, prequels and spin offs. But it also removes the ability for characters in the story to just jump to another universe and try again, because they can't that removes my big gripe with multiverses whilst keeping a lot of the positive elements I like from them.

My execution and implementation for this universe and it's predecessors/successors is simply easter eggs at the moment. Such as a book one character had possession of during his world imploding appearing in another seemingly unrelated universe. I have no idea how many VNs I will eventually create in that specific brand/under that name so I would much rather just leave little hints and easter eggs for the hardcore fans who are incredibly invested, with the possibility of eventually outright explaining how it all fits together in say an extra feature dedicated to it in a future VN if the demand is big enough. I don't want the "lore" to become such a big part of the brand or my writing that I have to purposefully change my stories just to make it fit into the logic of this specific lore I'd previously written which is why I plan to keep it far more ambiguous at the beginning and just only outline it's logic for fans if demand is there.

Wow! a fellow Nasuverse fan! I was so fanatical about it that for a time i actually believed the counter force could be real (probably still do), given the great amount of logic and relation to history.

It's no small thing to say that my multiverse was somehow inspired by his, even though they have nothing in common. Also i can relate to having a though time explaining the throne of heroes to non-anime watchers as they slowly start to look at me like i'm insane.

A cyclicar universe sounds like an interesting way to inaugurate and adapt this concept into your work, although i haven't been able to fully grasp it.

the only thing that's different about my method is that i believe that the lore should facilitate the story rather than complement it. Not to go into details, i just like the idea that the religions, economies that come of a obscure to the main story, should influence it to some extent .

i.e if there was a cult in the olden days of the story's world, a side character could a deranged member of the cult etc.

Basically don't just leave Lore as an old and irrelevant story. Sometimes lore can help cover plot holes that the story itself can fix, although the lore may also create new ones in the process.

Also, i think we both had the same idea about passing over weapons from alternate universes as i incorporated that to RD.

[TheJerminator15]

I'm honestly 50/50 on multiverses. In a lot of shows I have seen and other media I have consumed, multiverses tend to just be thrown in for things such as having happy endings where everyone is nice, safe and alive or to basically absolve all consequences. On the other hand, you have examples like the Nasuverse, where Kinoko Nasu has spent years building up the rules and logic throughout multiple works and having it be this insanely detailed multiverse where anything can and will happen. However the main problem with going the Nasuverse route is introducing new fans is insanely mind boggling and hard, which turns newcomers off immensely because they have no clue what you're talking about in story. Hell, I'm a Nasuverse fan and have been for quite a while but still am constantly learning about more and more aged or obscure releases he has made which fit in and expand it even more.

In commercial terms, Nasu has also taken full advantage of implementing a multiverse by creating and authorizing tons of spin offs. Commercially, multiverses are amazing for bringing in new and fresh ideas to an already established franchise and universe. It draws in new fans with these different types of stories whilst also bringing in content for long time fans.

Me personally, it depends on the world/universe I'm building. For the main project I'm writing currently, I decided to have it be a cyclicar universe where it eventually implodes and then creates a new one, with the opportunity to temporarily create branching versions of that one world available (though they also implode incredibly quickly). This allows me to keep the logic and rules consistent and also leaves room for extra additions in the future in sequels, prequels and spin offs. But it also removes the ability for characters in the story to just jump to another universe and try again, because they can't that removes my big gripe with multiverses whilst keeping a lot of the positive elements I like from them.

My execution and implementation for this universe and it's predecessors/successors is simply easter eggs at the moment. Such as a book one character had possession of during his world imploding appearing in another seemingly unrelated universe. I have no idea how many VNs I will eventually create in that specific brand/under that name so I would much rather just leave little hints and easter eggs for the hardcore fans who are incredibly invested, with the possibility of eventually outright explaining how it all fits together in say an extra feature dedicated to it in a future VN if the demand is big enough. I don't want the "lore" to become such a big part of the brand or my writing that I have to purposefully change my stories just to make it fit into the logic of this specific lore I'd previously written which is why I plan to keep it far more ambiguous at the beginning and just only outline it's logic for fans if demand is there.

Wow! a fellow Nasuverse fan! I was so fanatical about it that for a time i actually believed the counter force could be real (probably still do), given the great amount of logic and relation to history.

It's no small thing to say that my multiverse was somehow inspired by his, even though they have nothing in common. Also i can relate to having a though time explaining the throne of heroes to non-anime watchers as they slowly start to look at me like i'm insane.

A cyclicar universe sounds like an interesting way to inaugurate and adapt this concept into your work, although i haven't been able to fully grasp it.

the only thing that's different about my method is that i believe that the lore should facilitate the story rather than complement it. Not to go into details, i just like the idea that the religions, economies that come of a obscure to the main story, should influence it to some extent .

i.e if there was a cult in the olden days of the story's world, a side character could a deranged member of the cult etc.

Basically don't just leave Lore as an old and irrelevant story. Sometimes lore can help cover plot holes that the story itself can fix, although the lore may also create new ones in the process.

Also, i think we both had the same idea about passing over weapons from alternate universes as i incorporated that to RD.

I think the easiest way to explain a cyclicar universe would be to use Dark Souls as an example. The universe there constantly goes through destructive cycles, then prosperity etc. My idea isn't the same as that barring the base concept of cycles, but I think you get the gist. One universe where the same rules apply but in a different setting.

That's a good point about lore. I also really like that method, but I tend to not do it for some reason. Maybe it's because I'm so used to RPG-like lore that fleshes out the world from ages back that I do the same myself.

By the way it's great to see another Nasuverse fan haha.

[Parataxis]

I guess reading this whole thread I think that what sort of multiverse you are interested makes a great deal of difference. Undertale, Zero Escape and Amnesia: Memories are all single games where the existence of multiple endings is basically treated as a mini-multiverse-- but all existing within the same universe with the same rules, just different outcomes. And I have intensely enjoyed the use of this idea in each game. But I gather that you are pulling more inspiration from the Nasuverse-style multiverse which I haven't played as much of (My experience limited to some but not all of Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Kliener Prism Ilya) but my understanding is that while Fate/Stay Night itself is like the above, the whole "multiverse" falls into a sort of AU thing where multiple games use variations on the same rules/lore and potentially even the same characters, but canonically do not exist in the same causality and are not aware of eachother.

I have a very short game that sort of uses this concept: a character has a secret and depending on your choices the secret is revealed to be one of 4 possible options in 4 very different genres, so its sort of treated as a superposition of truths--a single choice changes whether you're playing a Sci-fi game or a quirky romantic comedy, etc. And it was really fun to write, but in some ways that's more like the Undertale group since it's all confined to a single piece of media.

On the grand multi-game scale I find this... sort of limiting to write. I hardly ever approach a new project thinking "Yes this idea would be improved by incorporating aspects of the previous idea," most of the time I am 6 characters and a bucket of lore into the process before I even look up again. Even Shadow City, my most recent project, is intentionally designed to write shared-UNIVERSE stories... but not multiverse stories. That is, the Shadow City Universe has flexible enough lore to tell basically whatever sort of story you want to tell in it, so much so that a huge number of fictional works hypothetically exist within it (Including, hilariously, Fate/Stay Night) but the different stories are separated by location and time not causality. The potential stories on the whole involve different characters because when I write my characters, I generally have a particular story and arc in mind. When the story is over, If I want to tell another story with these characters, I don't want to tell them dealing with the same arcs again, I want to push forward with them--I hardly ever find an AU that I think informs the characters differently enough to be worth developing for an audience. I am much more likely to just write a new unrelated universe with new characters instead.

[dfbreezy]

I think since parataxis went out of his way to explain how his multiverse worked i think i'll do same.

Mind you it might be a bit unclear without illustrations but i'll try my best. Oh and below will be spoiler tagged since it gives out a lot of spoilers from Episicava and Rainbow dreams.

So my multiverse named the Dfverse (subject to change) is structured like this. There are five universes, Not multiverses that exist side by side. These universes have their own gods and their own galaxies and Star systems. Within those universes do we see the multiverse concept of decisions splitting worlds giving different outcomes.

Universe 1-
Story: Episicava
God: Caelo (Arin) and Caela (Aria)
Multiverse: splits very easily based on even mediocre decisions, so Caelo frequently had to destroy a few to close up their space. Led to the break up between him and Caela and his decision to become mortal.

Universe 2-
Story: Rainbow dreams
God: Myra
Multiverse: same rules as Caelo's universe, only that the splitting is limited by the efforts of the Forest fairies. Their crumbling of reality arose when Myra went to assist Caelo on an urgent matter, leaving the world unkempt.

Universe 3,4 and 5-
Story: Undecided
God:TBA
Multiverse: Working on it

But that's not all. These universes are just 'Seedbeds' if you will. The souls that make up humanity and where they originate is the sixth universe. the World of Origin called Origo.

Origo-
Story: A fan disc that would be done after all five universes are filled.
God: Deus
Multiverse: none. It is a small planet that holds enough life energy that no number or human subjective understanding could comprehend. Basically Infinite.


One thing about this is that Certain characters from the universes are aware of each other. For e.g Myra is aware of Caelo and all the other gods and vice versa. Each story plays a role in the other to some extent, with the exception of episicava, since it is chronologically first.

for E.g Myra and Luka "Dimension hopped" To the universe of Episicava and arrived after the war. then Luka was given all of their weapons which he used to hunt down the Canibus.

This is the best i can explain it without giving out too much. of course there are a lot more rules and applications but i can compress what i used a 250000 word story in this small page.

Also most of the multiversal relations and rules wouldn't all be explained in one novel. Until all 5 are read the full concept would never be grasped.

[TheJerminator15]

From what you provided Dfbreezy your multiverse incredibly similar to what Akira Toriyama does with Dragonball Z. There are multiple universes, but each singular universe can have many different timelines based on different things happening. It's a good idea for building universes, and the whole part of essentially destroying other timelines is a nice touch I like a lot.

I also like how you've readily planned ahead for how each universe fits into the bigger picture of your multiverse.

[Kuiper]

I haven read any of Sanderson's books, but you talking about it has certainly piqued my interest. Any suggestions as to where i could get a copy and the order in which i should read it?

Brandon Sanderson is a very popular and well-known fantasy author (his career really took off when he took over the Wheel of Time series after Robert Jordan passed away), so you should be able to find his books at most public libraries. Be forewarned, Sanderson does not write short books; most of them are around 400,000 words. (For perspective, the Lord of the Rings books are around 150,000 words each.) The Cosmere includes four series so far: Elantris, Mistborn, Warbreaker, and The Stormlight Archive, though Mistborn and Stormlight Archive are the two "main" series at this point. You can find more information on this wiki page.

There isn't a set "order" to the different series that are set in the Cosmere, but each of the individual series does have an internal chronology to it. To explain what I mean, Mistborn and The Stormlight Archive are both set in the Cosmere. Mistborn is a series with multiple books, so you'd read Mistborn 1 before Mistborn 2, and Mistborn 2 before Mistborn 3, and so on. Similiarly, you'd read The Stormlight Archive starting with book 1, then go to Stormlight Archive book 2, then Stormlight Archive book 3, and so on. However, you can read the series in any order, meaning that you can feel free to read Mistborn before The Stormlight Archive, or The Stormlight Archive before Mistborn, just as long as you're following the internal chronology of each series. In fact, most readers "bounce" between the two series, and in fact you kind of need to do this as Sanderson himself tends to alternate between them in terms of release order. You can basically treat them as two separate series that have some commonalities in the background that you may notice if you're particularly astute. I personally recommend starting with Mistborn book 1 (The Final Empire), as it's one of Sanderson's more accessible (and fun) fantasy epics.