Potential Issues with Allowing Choices to be Made Whenever?

[hikarinakano]

I'm finally getting to work on my first (noticeably ambitious) visual novel, and due to its plot and various other reasons, I decided to allow plot branching in some fashion to happen at nearly any point in the narrative. It's an interesting idea that I want to try out, so I'm writing my scripts to account for that. At the same time, I realize that this means that the branching can get extremely convoluted and hard for the reader to understand.

I was hoping for some feedback on this idea, and more importantly all of the pitfalls. Because of my story's plot, I'm going to be using this mechanic (pretty much) no matter what, but I wanted to know some potential ways that I could pull it off incorrectly so that I can avoid those.



Even though I haven't actually played the VN, what I'm making sounds an awful lot like the A.D.M.S. from YU-NO. Though not quite.

Everything past here is elaboration if you need it. Note that each paragraph is an isolated idea that I couldn't figure out how to word into the above.

I'm going to have multiple routes based on a variety of factors, such as how many times you redo a day, what you do in particular resets, how you interact with the mechanic that allows you to time travel, when you time travel from, when you time travel to, optional degrees of randomness, and if you allow certain characters to die.

The "mechanic" that allows you to time travel is actually a character herself, and your interactions (or lack thereof) with her are partially what moves the story along.

The time travel is more of a "time leap" type of thing, in that you can't take objects back with you. You can, however, time travel backward and grab an item that you forgot to grab at a later point in the narrative. Basically, it's a way to avoid paradoxes. I tried, and I can't come up with any true paradoxes using this method.

If you need any additional elaboration, just ask.

[indoneko]

When two future versions of the same protagonist (let's say the day 3 version and day 5 version) simultaneously tried to travel backward in time to grab the same item from day 1, what will happen?

I haven't played Yu No, so I'm quite lost here...

[mard]

When two future versions of the same protagonist (let's say the day 3 version and day 5 version) simultaneously tried to travel backward in time to grab the same item from day 1, what will happen?
.

Possible that the one from the further future could attempt to overwrite the one from the previous point, but if getting into technicalities, if the one from the earlier future went back, then the one from the later future would have to be on a separate time line originating from the point the one from the earlier one arrived in, unless by chance they each came from two separate time lines simultaneously, at which point it gets very convoluted, and one would have to overwrite the other, eliminating both time lines in order to create a third.

The overall question is what exactly happens to the previous time lines created. Do they simply vanish, or by chance do they remain, intersecting at a later point.

[Mammon]

When I look at this idea of yours, I'm wondering whether you know how you want to achieve your plans programming-wise and if you truly understand the gravity of your plan. Do you have an actual code ready to fill your game into, or are you just envisioning the mechanics right now? And do you understand that writing a script is already quite difficult and time-consuming on it's own, without multiplying the length several times?

Example: I do something, I learn, I do something else.

Let's say the two (,) and the (.)+(:) are the four points that the reader can jump from and back to. This gives a total of 7 different stories if there's only one jump and no jumping into the future. If we take future jumps in account, there are 12 different stories. If we would allow multiple jumps, I don't even want to think how many combinations that would give. And this is with 4 set flags, if we were to take each of the 37 symbols as a point to jump from, this would give about 37*37 options still accounting only a single jump. Now envision having to work with those 1369 different versions in a >10.000 words script.

Now this is assuming that the protagonist will take along knowledge even if they don't take any items, and act upon that knowledge. And that you give the player the choice on how to use that knowledge. It will be a lot.

However, I'm saying this with the worst scenario in mind. You probably already envisioned some solutions to this, like making multiple routes flow together to certain points or limiting the actual development flags to prevent creating any such unlimited combinations of stories. What I would suggest you'd keep an eye on (and you probably already planned on a few of these):

1) Make a spreadsheet of sorts where you illustrate all the possible combinations for yourself to understand what you have to do.

2) Try to limit the amount of actual events the protagonist can act upon to be manageable, and add a certain notification for the player to be aware when they hit this flag. F.e.: You accidentally walk into the bathroom while Tsundere-san is naked. You look at her, she blushes, you realise your mistake*, she attacks you by punching you in the face, you notice how strong she really is*.

The two * are flags, where the player can see that they can now change the course of events. You can make this a sound or image appearing. This way, you prevent the player from going back in time when they see Tsundere-san blushing: before they hit the flag of you realising your mistake. They won't expect an alternative route where the protagonist has seen her naked but wonders how she would react to it, and they'll know that there is an alternative route possible for the protagonist knowing it but not knowing she's strong.

3) Give the player a spreadsheet to keep track of their progress can also be very useful and appreciated.

4) Try to contain the things that the protagonist and the player can learn are limited to certain plot twists rather than gradual learning. If you learn something new in every scene of the game, things can get really convoluted.

5) Try to keep some simple things simple. A slice of life scene where your best friend fails to flirt for example doesn't need an entire alternative scene. (f=friend and p=protagonist)

f 'I can totally score a date with her!'

p 'No you can't, you'll fail.'

f 'You don't know that! I'll succeed this time, you'll see!'

if $ failed == True:
<tab>'But I do know you'll fail, I've seen it myself.'

'f walks up to the girl and says something. Moments later, the girl slaps him in the face and storms off.'

$ fail = True

p 'Told you'

As you can see, there is now an alternative route by adding only three lines of code, limiting the amount of writing you'll need to do.


Contrary what my post above might suggest, I'm actually quite interested in whether you can succeed in your plans. It's certainly ambitious but I've seen people bite of more than they can chew before. The deciding factor of whether this project will succeed will most likely lie in your story's preparation before beginning to write. And if you would give us something more concrete on the plot, I might be able to give you a more accurate assessment of all this.

[hikarinakano]

Okay, it seems I need to describe the rules of my world for this to seem a little more feasible. There is no jumping forward in time, only jumping backwards to the beginning of a day. If you jump backwards, everything that happens after the point you jump back to becomes null and void, in a form of timeline collapse, and then a new timeline is "generated" from whenever you jump back to. This is actually shown and described at the end of one of the routes.

I do intend to have a "map" of sorts to keep track of what happens on what day.

And now, plot details:
The character that allows you to jump to the past is preventing the end of the world from happening at the end of the month at the hands of the antagonist. Being a character (err... she's a watch) herself, she has personal rules that she doesn't allow you to infringe upon. These rules are:

1: You cannot jump forwards in time, because A: that's wasting time, and B: It's entirely possible that you'd be dead at the beginning of the day you jump to.

2: You can only travel backwards within the relevant plot. You can't travel back more than (around, still going through my details) 10 days before the start of the story.

3: If you do happen to die at any point, she [the mechanic of time travel] reserves the right to reset that day, but since physical contact is necessary to do so, if the two characters are significantly separated then there's nothing that she can do, since resetting the day wouldn't take your consciousness back in time too, without that physical contact.


Throughout consecutive playthroughs her character development really begins to show, because at the end of each real Ending, she just resets everything. It's half a way to explain consecutive playthroughs being canon, and half because this character is actually quite malevolent.


===


Again I fully realize how complex this will end up being, and since I have a lot of patience I'm willing to spend that time working on this. No, I don't have the exact code right now, but I have a vague, clay-like idea of how it will work. Involving a lot of variables and jump functions, and also some new interface design and script. I have a clear image in my mind of how I want it to look and work.

Keep in mind, too, that there are only a finite number of endings (about 32-52 off of about 8 routes, not including the rare death end). The story's jumps only affect so much. There are multiple conditions for each end, so the story doesn't completely diverge into something else every time you jump. It's usually only a small divergence, which will only significantly change the plot when combined with other choices, jumps, and some optional degree of randomness. Depending on the scene, there are usually One to two alternate scenes for every scene in the standard route, but in the darker routes it varies a little more wildly.

Does that help?

tl;dr: There are rules surrounding this form of time travel, plot pertaining to it, and all storylines are canon. And they all make a difference in the ultimate ending. The time travel will have its own interface with a diary of what happened when. So far this conversation has already been useful, so please continue.

[Mammon]

Okay, it seems I need to describe the rules of my world for this to seem a little more feasible. There is no jumping forward in time, only jumping backwards to the beginning of a day. If you jump backwards, everything that happens after the point you jump back to becomes null and void, in a form of timeline collapse, and then a new timeline is "generated" from whenever you jump back to.

I expected there to be no jumping forward in time, holding in Ctrl already does that, I added that in my example because it was one of the few statistically correct calculations I could do from the top of my head. But it's good to have this confirmed.

I do intend to have a "map" of sorts to keep track of what happens on what day.

Something like this? (One of the first image results when googling YU-NO a.d.m.s.) Not neccesarily to keep track of what happens in a day, but to keep track of all the different timelines.

The character that allows you to jump to the past is preventing the end of the world from happening at the end of the month at the hands of the antagonist. Being a character herself, she has personal rules that she doesn't allow you to infringe upon. These rules are:

1: You cannot jump forwards in time, because A: that's wasting time, and B: It's entirely possible that you'd be dead at the beginning of the day you jump to.

2: You can only travel backwards within the relevant plot. You can't travel back more than (around, still going through my details) 10 days before the start of the story.

3: If you do happen to die at any point, she reserves the right to reset that day, but since physical contact is necessary to do so, if the two characters are significantly separated then there's nothing that she can do, since resetting the day wouldn't take your consciousness back in time too.

I already expected 2, it would be crazy if you could travel back to the Jura era or WWII just for laughs. And if you could go terminator and kill the antagonist as a toddler, it wouldn't be any fun either. But I do hope you have a reason why the protagonist won't go back a bit further, like going to the time that the antagonist was still vulnerable while planning a few things or recruiting their hencemen? Off course, if the antagonist is unaware of what is about to happen themselves until the apocalypse begins (Like some mysterious power residing within them about to burst out?), or if the time travel has a limited range for some reason, this problem could be easily solved.

In fact, I like hearing that you can go to several days before the initial start of the story. It will help with the readers feeling like they're actually traveling through time, and can cause some interesting perspectives and changes in the timeline. Are you planning to foreshadow certain event by having people talk about it and then allow the player to go to those scenes, or a system where you find out certain knowledge and unlock the ability to travel back further in time? (Like finding an abandoned hideout of the antagonist and getting the option to travel 10 days in the past to when it was still in use, while it wasn't possible to travel more than two days back before? This because the time traveler saw no purpose in going a few more days back into the past before your discovery.)


3: Ah, so you can go game over and the time traveler has to go back to a point in time on her own? Meet up with the protagonist who's already been introduced to some parts of the plot and experienced few time jumps, but not the most recent ones? Yes, I believe this phenomenom is called 'save files'.

All kidding aside, it would be pretty awesome if you could make her remember things that the reader witnessed while the protagonist cannot. I believe 'Her tears were my light' did something like this, for a reference of what ren'py coding can do.

No, I don't have the exact code right now, but I have a vague, clay-like idea of how it will work. Involving a lot of variables and jump functions, and also some new interface design and script. I have a clear image in my mind of how I want it to look and work.

Good, I'd still advice that spreadsheet or some other system to actually write it out, the system in your head can seem a lot more solid than it really is, and test your code in a small mock-VN to see if it actually works. It would be a real time-waster if you implement it into the game and found out it doesn't do what it's supposed to do.

Keep in mind, too, that there are only a finite number of endings (about 32-52 off of about 8 routes, not including the rare death end). The story's jumps only affect so much. There are multiple conditions for each end, so the story doesn't completely diverge into something else every time you jump. It's usually only a small divergence, which will only significantly change the plot when combined with other choices, jumps, and some optional degree of randomness. Depending on the scene, there are usually One to two alternate scenes for every scene in the standard route, but in the darker routes it varies a little more wildly.

It's a good thing that you already thought out the story enough to give an estimation of your routes and endings, but 30-50 endings is still quite a lot. I hope for your sake that most of them are indeed only subtely different from one another.

And one last question: Is the antagonist aware of the time manipulation?

[hikarinakano]

The antagonist becomes aware of the manipulation in some routes, but not others. It all has to do with how directly related to her actions your changes are. For example, in a route where you thwart a plan before it happens, but after the antagonist comes up with it, she'll be more than a little suspicious, but time travel won't be her first thought. On the other hand, if she this happened many times in a row, she may consider that. If she interacts directly with the time traveler character enough, she may also arrive at that conclusion.

That image of the A.D.M.S. map is somewhat similar to what I'm planning, design aside. Mine... actually that's remarkably similar, aside from not having specific information, as you said. In YU-NO, however, it sounds like you can jump to anywhere from anywhere, provided you have certain "gems" from the endings set on the machine, and you can take key items with you. In my VN, you can only jump directly backwards along the specific timeline that you are on, and any items that you may have return to where they were at the time that you jump to. Also, the map carries over to consecutive playthroughs, to encourage replays.

The reasoning for #2 is basically that the time traveler character doesn't see going any further back as relevant. Also, the main reason that you can't go back to before the antagonist is plotting things is because you would have to essentially go on a wild goose chase to locate them, and that seems rather pointless and boring. I'll spend the day coming up with a better reason. To answer the second part, yes, there are certain exceptions to the limits if information like that is stated. I intend to make that quite rare, though. If I do that too often, it could lead to a "that's BS" by the player, and I obviously don't want that. I also, naturally, give the option to not go back in time, which allows other things to happen. Things that would be rather unrealistic if you went back and did something a month before the start of the story. So it's about information, not location.

For #3, to accurately answer your rhetorical question, yes, that is what happens. The time traveler basically just advises against a certain course of action if you as the player have already made that mistake. Of course, if the time traveler is separated from the main character because of a crucial plot detail, well... that's something for me to think about, since the time traveler would then be obligated to tell the information to the main character.

I'll also make a point to get my ideas for the coding on paper somewhere, and then outline it later.

Any more questions? Or questions I didn't answer? Contrary to how it may seem, asking questions is beneficial to me.

[mard]

The one thing I'm not getting is what exactly would be the limitaions on the leaps. I understand length and basic requierments, but how exactly does it affect the protaganist's view on the arc. Is any knowledge lost by chance, or is all knowledge retained by the protagonist through each jump. (This is not pertaining to the dead end aspect, but rather the standard jump backs)

[Mammon]

The antagonist becomes aware of the manipulation in some routes, but not others. It all has to do with how directly related to her actions your changes are. For example, in a route where you thwart a plan before it happens, but after the antagonist comes up with it, she'll be more than a little suspicious, but time travel won't be her first thought. On the other hand, if this happened many times in a row, she may consider that. If she interacts directly with the time traveler character enough, she may also arrive at that conclusion.

Oh, I'm already liking the idea of an intelligent female antagonist. Make her smart, cunning (and not fanservice) and she'll do great to stand out and be liked as the nemesis.

That image of the A.D.M.S. map is somewhat similar to what I'm planning, design aside. Mine... actually that's remarkably similar, aside from not having specific information, as you said. In YU-NO, however, it sounds like you can jump to anywhere from anywhere, provided you have certain "gems" from the endings set on the machine, and you can take key items with you. In my VN, you can only jump directly backwards along the specific timeline that you are on, and any items that you may have return to where they were at the time that you jump to. Also, the map carries over to consecutive playthroughs, to encourage replays.

I never played YU-NO either, so I don't even know how well it works. I also saw something from the melancholy of Haruhi in the first 6 results so I'm not too sure if that image is even from the game. It just looked like it could work as an example, as it seemed quite basic.

The reasoning for #2 is basically that the time traveler character doesn't see going any further back as relevant. Also, the main reason that you can't go back to before the antagonist is plotting things is because you would have to essentially go on a wild goose chase to locate them, and that seems rather pointless and boring. I'll spend the day coming up with a better reason.

Maybe because going back in time takes a lot of energy on an exponential scale? So one day is easy, but one week is 100x tougher (still not that tough) and >1 month is beyond her abilities?

To answer the second part, yes, there are certain exceptions to the limits if information like that is stated. I intend to make that quite rare, though. If I do that too often, it could lead to a "that's BS" by the player, and I obviously don't want that.

Off course, it shouldn't become something too overused. Somewhere between 1 and 4 times at best so it'll feel like an accomplishment to unlock more of the timeflow. And other parts of information that you found out that aren't too relevant could be implemented in the important time-unlocks. F.e. after you went further back in time to check out the hideout, you get some other new scenes from the days between that and the beginning of the story which aren't important enough to travel back in time for.

Any more questions? Or questions I didn't answer? Contrary to how it may seem, asking questions is beneficial to me.

Not contrary at all, I know the feeling of wanting a fresh perspective or honest critique so I can improve upon my work, and you did give the impression that you were open for this as well. The supportive, descriptive and open responses made that rather clear.

[hikarinakano]

The one thing I'm not getting is what exactly would be the limitaions on the leaps. I understand length and basic requierments, but how exactly does it affect the protaganist's view on the arc. Is any knowledge lost by chance, or is all knowledge retained by the protagonist through each jump. (This is not pertaining to the dead end aspect, but rather the standard jump backs)

All information is retained by the protagonist if it's not a dead end. Every time the protagonist jumps, they gain a slightly different view on the event, up to a reasonable maximum. You can't infinitely glean information from a scene, nor can I infinitely write variants of a scene. After a certain number of jumps to a particular scene, the main character gets bored and doesn't really talk as much, which means that relationship points and all of that would not go up, due to the protagonist not saying anything. It's basically the incentive to sometimes not reset every scene the maximum number of times. It can lock you out of certain things.

[mard]

Okay, that makes sense. Are there any specific triggers that allow you to jump back, or is it simply interact with the one who makes it possible for you to jump back.

[Mammon]

All information is retained by the protagonist if it's not a dead end. Every time the protagonist jumps, they gain a slightly different view on the event, up to a reasonable maximum. You can't infinitely glean information from a scene, nor can I infinitely write variants of a scene. After a certain number of jumps to a particular scene, the main character gets bored and doesn't really talk as much, which means that relationship points and all of that would not go up, due to the protagonist not saying anything. It's basically the incentive to sometimes not reset every scene the maximum number of times. It can lock you out of certain things.

Oh, that is actually an unexpected but interesting idea. I already disregarded the idea of 'Edge of Tomorrow' levels of foresight and acting upon said foresight, but I unconsciously did the same with the romance. But what if the player unlocks something new that comes into play in a scene you already saw several times? Does the protagonist reset to being talkative or doesn't he trigger the new monologue/dialogue because he's silent?

[hikarinakano]

Okay, that makes sense. Are there any specific triggers that allow you to jump back, or is it simply interact with the one who makes it possible for you to jump back.

It's all based on interaction. Usually you interact with her in the form of a watch, but when you're unable to do that you're more vulnerable for a dead end. If she's not "in" the watch, but she's still nearby, she can still jump with your consciousness. It's all contact based. Events can disable your ability to jump, in rare cases, but they never force or allow it because of the event itself.

Oh, that is actually an unexpected but interesting idea. I already disregarded the idea of 'Edge of Tomorrow' levels of foresight and acting upon said foresight, but I unconsciously did the same with the romance. But what if the player unlocks something new that comes into play in a scene you already saw several times? Does the protagonist reset to being talkative or doesn't he trigger the new monologue/dialogue because he's silent?

I can't see a reset unlocking anything after the third time. If the character jumps back after say, the climax of a route, that will definitely change things, but I think that's only possible in one route, and it's for a valid plot purpose. In this situation, the protagonist will begin saying things related to what they experienced later on. But under normal circumstances, that won't happen.

Oh, I'm already liking the idea of an intelligent female antagonist. Make her smart, cunning (and not fanservice) and she'll do great to stand out and be liked as the nemesis.

That is what I'm trying to do. It gets substantially harder to write a good antagonist when the protagonist has time travel on their side.

Maybe because going back in time takes a lot of energy on an exponential scale? So one day is easy, but one week is 100x tougher (still not that tough) and >1 month is beyond her abilities?

That does sound believable, yes. But then I need to think about explaining consecutive jumps. I guess it's more a matter of focus, not energy.

Not contrary at all, I know the feeling of wanting a fresh perspective or honest critique so I can improve upon my work, and you did give the impression that you were open for this as well. The supportive, descriptive and open responses made that rather clear.

The current responses are better than I was expecting, frankly
More questions?

[RotGtIE]

I'm going to have multiple routes based on a variety of factors, such as how many times you redo a day, what you do in particular resets, how you interact with the mechanic that allows you to time travel, when you time travel from, when you time travel to, optional degrees of randomness, and if you allow certain characters to die.

The "mechanic" that allows you to time travel is actually a character herself, and your interactions (or lack thereof) with her are partially what moves the story along.

The time travel is more of a "time leap" type of thing, in that you can't take objects back with you. You can, however, time travel backward and grab an item that you forgot to grab at a later point in the narrative. Basically, it's a way to avoid paradoxes. I tried, and I can't come up with any true paradoxes using this method.

I think I've already said this about another one of these threads recently, but your premise sounds a lot like Kagetsu Tohya.

[hikarinakano]

Does it now? Isn't that the one with the Groundhog Day loop? I suppose you could say that this is similar in that sense. I haven't played it, but it sounds like it's more of a mystery about why the time loop is happening, much like Hollow Ataraxia.

My plot isn't about the mystery of time travel at all, it's about preventing the end of the world. If I had to say it was similar to some other plot, I would compare it to Punch Line (an anime), but even that had its unique elements.

EDIT: And it was significantly more confusing, since it didn't give you the true beginning of the story, it just plopped you into the endgame "route".

Though correct me if I'm wrong.