How do I approach romance?

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Sonomi
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How do I approach romance?

#1 Post by Sonomi »

I'm excited to say that I'm working on my first VN. The main route is likely going to focus on a relationship right after it has started rather than the pursuit of one. Ok, that's probably confusing. I mean that the MC and the love interest begin a friendship and then romantic relationship near the beginning of the VN rather than at the end, so the storyline can follow them approaching their personal problems as a couple (which is what I want to write about). After so many attempts on my own, I would like to hear your advice on portraying romance in a realistic manner.

Once I can get myself to sit down and write, I find myself filling several pages with text without too much push back. But when I come to scenes that involve the MC and love interest, it suddenly becomes far more difficult for me to continue. What do I write? Does this feel natural or forced? What would an actual person do in this situation?

Questions like these enter my mind and force me to ultimately go write another scene in my "freewrite" document, which is where I put things that haven't yet found a place in the manuscript. So I thought I'd ask more experienced writers about tackling this problem.

As far as pulling from real life goes, I have had one experience but it didn't really work out. Most of what I do know about romance is pulled from movies, television, and of course novels. I don't really want to make my VN a culmination of clichés...but that's where I am right now. Any help would be greatly appreciated. And if you need me to clarify anything, I would be most happy to do so.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#2 Post by Caveat Lector »

I think this is a great idea! There is a VN that's done something similar, but with a marriage. It's called Our Personal Space. I'd also recommend reading up some articles on depicting romance, such as this, for example, if you're trying to think of how to write the couple's scenes together: http://springhole.net/writing/couple-questions.htm

Other things to consider, is the dynamic the theoretical OTP had before getting together--here, they used to be friends. How long were they friends for before their relationship upgrade? Since childhood? High school? A few months? Who started to like who first? How did they go from "just friends" to "romantic couple"? How does any of that play a role in their relationship in the present?
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#3 Post by Sonomi »

@Caveat Lector

Oh, thanks! The Springhole link in addition to your questions has given me quite a bit to look into. I honestly hadn't thought about many of those aspects in their relationship. As for the ones I can answer now, I want it to be around a few months between the two meeting, becoming friends, and then taking the next step. Hopefully that isn't too quickly. They met through a mutual hobby that naturally led to them spending more time together. It's a modern setting that takes place in a normal city.

Wow. Our Personal Space looks very much like what I want to accomplish. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to download it right now (I will certainly do so at my next opportunity). Upon reading through the comments, I drew quite a few bits of inspiration from their project. I hope that my story will be as well-received.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#4 Post by gekiganwing »

1. What sort of person is the main character? Are they a distinct individual with beliefs, goals, abilities, and so on? Are they a person whose attributes are determined by the reader through choices or statistics? Are they a vaguely defined stand-in for the reader -- someone they can pretend to be ("you are the protagonist")? In my opinion, all three of these options are feasible. I think you can also mix-and-match two or more of these types.

2. If the two characters start as friends, that's fine. Ask yourselves why these two people get along with each other. What do they have in common? Why do they choose to interact, instead of seeing other people, or spending time with their current friends?

3. Write down thoughts such as "What he would like her to know" or "Things she is embarrassed to admit to him." Then think about how will these change as the story goes on.
Sonomi wrote:I don't really want to make my VN a culmination of clichés...but that's where I am right now.
I've mentioned the TVTropes article So You Want to be Original at least once in the recent past. If you haven't read it, then consider taking a few minutes to read it.
Sonomi wrote:As far as pulling from real life goes, I have had one experience but it didn't really work out. Most of what I do know about romance is pulled from movies, television, and of course novels.
I can sympathize. It has often been easier for me to relate to fictional characters (in varied media forms) than real people.

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Re: How do I approach romance?

#5 Post by Sonomi »

gekiganwing wrote:1. What sort of person is the main character? Are they a distinct individual with beliefs, goals, abilities, and so on? Are they a person whose attributes are determined by the reader through choices or statistics? Are they a vaguely defined stand-in for the reader -- someone they can pretend to be ("you are the protagonist")? In my opinion, all three of these options are feasible. I think you can also mix-and-match two or more of these types.
I think the first type fits perfectly (having distinct goals and beliefs). The MC often comes across as a blunt and unsociable person, but is relatively kind-hearted underneath. I want to write in a few choices to branch paths into different endings, but they will all be consistent with the MC's personality. This is probably not the best example, but like F/SN has Shirou as a predefined character.
gekiganwing wrote: 2. If the two characters start as friends, that's fine. Ask yourselves why these two people get along with each other. What do they have in common? Why do they choose to interact, instead of seeing other people, or spending time with their current friends?
Why they get along...hm. Originally it's due to their mutual interest in music, which is how they meet. This is also what they have in common (but not the only thing). I intend the LI to be someone who is more upbeat and enthusiastic toward life than the MC, who deep down wants to feel this way but struggles with an incident that left a more jaded perspective of the world. People often befriend others because they see something in them that they lack (according to my psychology studies anyway). For this thought to work though, it would have to go in both directions. The LI takes notice of the MC's more contemplative nature and feels attracted to the sense of calm and stability. I apologize if that is an awkward reasoning, as I had not thought of the LI's reason for spending time with the MC until now.
gekiganwing wrote:3. Write down thoughts such as "What he would like her to know" or "Things she is embarrassed to admit to him." Then think about how will these change as the story goes on.
That's a fine idea! Once I'm able to elaborate on such thoughts, I might actually be able to work out part of their character development arcs.
gekiganwing wrote:I've mentioned the TVTropes article So You Want to be Original at least once in the recent past. If you haven't read it, then consider taking a few minutes to read it.
Ok. So I took a few moments to look at the article you mentioned and this is how I can best summarize their main points behind originality:

1) You cannot create something from nothing, so use common building blocks to make something new

2) Use limitations to encourage more creativity

3) Observe the work of others and put your own spin on it

4) Get ideas from real life

Hopefully I've absorbed the key details explained there. I feel like I have a better understanding after reading through it for sure.
gekiganwing wrote:-spoiler text here-
Ah. It seems I'm not the only one.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#6 Post by Mammon »

Hm, a friendship going into a romance. Yes, I do think it's wise to avoid the clique's of these stories, since they seem to be either 'Childhood friend with lingering crush' or 'We foreshadowed it a bit and now they're dating'. Friendship->Romance can be very rushed or awkward in a lot of stories.

The infamous Friendzone would probably be a good part of any story alike yours. The friendzone is normally a accursed place where one of the two banishes the other to because 'I don't want to risk our friendship', or 'We work better as friends' or 'I see you more as a brother/sister than a boy/girl'. A friendzone can also be self-imposed, by either feeling that the other wouldn't want them to become lovers or that they're afraid of showing their feelings and losing the friendship. In this case, the friendzone is more a case of insecurity and doubt.
I intend the LI to be someone who is more upbeat and enthusiastic toward life than the MC, who deep down wants to feel this way but struggles with an incident that left a more jaded perspective of the world.
It seems like the MC would be someone to self-impose a friendzone, from what little you told me about his personality he seems like the kind of guy to doubt things rather than being impulsive and just seeing if it works, and who seems like the kind of man lacking companionship and friends to risk the company of the LI.

The way out of this FZ would be either through the LI making the jump, the MC either growing a pair and confessing or slowly gathering intel about her feelings very 'subtely'.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#7 Post by Zelan »

Sonomi wrote:Why they get along...hm. Originally it's due to their mutual interest in music, which is how they meet. This is also what they have in common (but not the only thing). I intend the LI to be someone who is more upbeat and enthusiastic toward life than the MC, who deep down wants to feel this way but struggles with an incident that left a more jaded perspective of the world. People often befriend others because they see something in them that they lack (according to my psychology studies anyway). For this thought to work though, it would have to go in both directions. The LI takes notice of the MC's more contemplative nature and feels attracted to the sense of calm and stability. I apologize if that is an awkward reasoning, as I had not thought of the LI's reason for spending time with the MC until now.
This is some good characterization. Definitely keep it in mind as you're writing their interactions; their personalities will affect how the interactions play out.

When you say "interest in music," does that mean listening to it, playing it, composing it, or a mixture of all three? (It's possible that each of them has a different interest - e.g. he likes listening and she likes playing - but it would also work just fine if they shared their areas of interest.)

I'm curious about their other interests, too. Speaking of those, something that could be interesting (and also realistic) would be if one character had an interest that the other is introduced to and/or puts up with. For example, maybe the love interest is really into taking day hikes, while MC would rather stay in, or at least stay in a populated area. Maybe she drags him along on one and he finds that he actually enjoys himself a lot, so it becomes another pastime that they can share. Alternatively, he might not enjoy it himself, but he sees how happy she is when she's out there hiking. He decides that he'll occasionally accompany her on her hikes, just because he likes seeing her happy. (If you go that second route, it might be a good idea to have it go both ways - maybe MC is really into film noir, and she finds the genre boring, but she'll watch the movies with him anyway.)

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Re: How do I approach romance?

#8 Post by Sonomi »

Mammon wrote:It seems like the MC would be someone to self-impose a friendzone, from what little you told me about his personality he seems like the kind of guy to doubt things rather than being impulsive and just seeing if it works, and who seems like the kind of man lacking companionship and friends to risk the company of the LI.

The way out of this FZ would be either through the LI making the jump, the MC either growing a pair and confessing or slowly gathering intel about her feelings very 'subtely'.
This is exactly right! I'm surprised you were able to determine that much from my meager description. The MC is indeed hesitant in the beginning of things, but undoubtedly does have and acknowledge feelings toward the other person, so it leads to something of a rocky start with these conflicting inner thoughts (which I hope to convey through the monologue as well). It's an issue of insecurity, trust, and fear of losing someone after becoming closer to them. The last point stems from the backstory I briefly mentioned before, and the emotional trauma that it caused is evident throughout the story until the MC is able to come to terms with it--the resolution that I hope to achieve in a Good End.

Indeed, it makes more sense for the LI to be the first to move things along in this case. This is likely the route that I'll take in the narrative. It's not set in stone just yet.
Zelan wrote:
Sonomi wrote:Why they get along...hm. Originally it's due to their mutual interest in music, which is how they meet. This is also what they have in common (but not the only thing). I intend the LI to be someone who is more upbeat and enthusiastic toward life than the MC, who deep down wants to feel this way but struggles with an incident that left a more jaded perspective of the world. People often befriend others because they see something in them that they lack (according to my psychology studies anyway). For this thought to work though, it would have to go in both directions. The LI takes notice of the MC's more contemplative nature and feels attracted to the sense of calm and stability. I apologize if that is an awkward reasoning, as I had not thought of the LI's reason for spending time with the MC until now.
This is some good characterization. Definitely keep it in mind as you're writing their interactions; their personalities will affect how the interactions play out.

When you say "interest in music," does that mean listening to it, playing it, composing it, or a mixture of all three? (It's possible that each of them has a different interest - e.g. he likes listening and she likes playing - but it would also work just fine if they shared their areas of interest.)

I'm curious about their other interests, too. Speaking of those, something that could be interesting (and also realistic) would be if one character had an interest that the other is introduced to and/or puts up with. For example, maybe the love interest is really into taking day hikes, while MC would rather stay in, or at least stay in a populated area. Maybe she drags him along on one and he finds that he actually enjoys himself a lot, so it becomes another pastime that they can share. Alternatively, he might not enjoy it himself, but he sees how happy she is when she's out there hiking. He decides that he'll occasionally accompany her on her hikes, just because he likes seeing her happy. (If you go that second route, it might be a good idea to have it go both ways - maybe MC is really into film noir, and she finds the genre boring, but she'll watch the movies with him anyway.)
Thank you very much! :D I've been able to put together a little more information for anyone who needs it, guided by some of your questions here.

By "interest in music," I primarily mean playing it. But they also enjoy listening to it all the same. The MC likes to sing while the LI enjoys playing the drums. The circumstances behind their meeting is still in draft form, but this is what I have so far.

The LI works in a night cafe that doubles as a live house. (Warning: this is about to get convoluted.) One of the gigs that he planned with a local band fell through. As a result, he is pressured by the manager to take responsibility for the mistake and somehow make sure a show still takes place on the scheduled night. Without much time to find a replacement group, he takes a third option and enlists the help of his friends to perform as a temporary band (mostly because it would be more fun this way, given his personality). He plays the drums and his best friend plays the guitar (backstory, the two used to be in a music club together in high school). So they need a bassist and a singer. Well, the best friend happens to be dating someone who is friends with a fairly decent singer (the MC). And although the MC has never played a stringed instrument before, the LI decides to tutor the MC with a bass guitar his uncle had given to him years ago.

There are a number of scenes between the proposal, whether or not the MC agrees to this, practicing together with everyone's sporadic availability, and actually playing on the night of the show, but it comes to a point where after their performance the idea of staying together as an indie band in their free time comes up.

I hope this makes sense.

Other interests. It's very much like what you described with your hiking example. Such a perfect example you gave!

The LI happens to be a huge fan of MMORPGs, something that the MC has little interest in at first but eventually warms up to because the LI seems to genuinely enjoy the activity. The MC sometimes joins in, though notably terrible at video games, and there are a few scenes planned with the MC watching the LI play while they're spending time together (this will make for fun CGs if I actually show the gameplay). On the other hand, the MC enjoys going on long, quiet walks. The LI similarly takes interest in this to please the MC, although this definitely isn't the LI's usual choice of passing the time. Scenes involving this activity may also allow for character development and discussion between the two.

Note: I haven't been using pronouns until this point because I've been in the process of rewriting several scenes in a different point of view. :o Sorry about that. At this point, I think I'm going to write from her POV because I'm somehow having more luck this way. It's not that important though. This is still a work in progress, so things are bound to change along the way.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#9 Post by Mammon »

Sonomi wrote:This is exactly right! I'm surprised you were able to determine that much from my meager description. The MC is indeed hesitant in the beginning of things, but undoubtedly does have and acknowledge feelings toward the other person, so it leads to something of a rocky start with these conflicting inner thoughts (which I hope to convey through the monologue as well). It's an issue of insecurity, trust, and fear of losing someone after becoming closer to them. The last point stems from the backstory I briefly mentioned before, and the emotional trauma that it caused is evident throughout the story until the MC is able to come to terms with it--the resolution that I hope to achieve in a Good End.
I managed to predict it because it's a very relatable idea. Not a clique mind you, but something many people who tend to overthink things or who're unsure about the feelings of the people around them have experienced themselves. One just needs to not know what another person thinks of them, and they'll understand the feelings behind the story. So I think that if you can convey these feelings right, you'll have a story that can touch people on a personal note.
Sonomi wrote: When you say "interest in music," does that mean listening to it, playing it, composing it, or a mixture of all three? (It's possible that each of them has a different interest - e.g. he likes listening and she likes playing - but it would also work just fine if they shared their areas of interest.)

By "interest in music," I primarily mean playing it. But they also enjoy listening to it all the same. The MC likes to sing while the LI enjoys playing the drums. The circumstances behind their meeting is still in draft form, but this is what I have so far.
Singing and drumming? I personally can't picture that in a private setting without reducing the drummer to a glorified metronome, but I have heard of such couples before. Apparently it's almost a real-life clique for the singer and drummer in a band to end up with each other for some reason, although I myself am not involved enough with music to say if this is really true. I've only heard that it is apparently quite a common match.

(Warning: this is about to get convoluted.)
True, I think you've mixed up the LI and MC a few times, and things being told from the female perspective would reverse the roles as well. That is, if it was originally a male protagonist to begin with, it has indeed gotten quite confusing. You actually explained the rest of the story quite transparently. And the new band requirement does seem like a good incentive to get the story going naturally.

The LI happens to be a huge fan of MMORPGs
Oh no. :shock: Things just went bad real quick.

I'm kidding. MMORPG's aren't the first activity I would think of considering the immense amount of hours the MC would need to spend before they'd get to the LI's level (Unless the LI decides to start a new character or MMO for the MC's sake.), but it can most definately work.

But like Zelan already said, other joint activities are indeed a good thing. Making compromises for the other's sake and convincing them of the joy of one of your hobbies are two of the things that tend to create the strongest bonds between people. A marriage where people (voluntarily) changed some of their habits or preferences to please the other before the engagement tend to be much more successful than two people who already shared their hobbies. I've even heard that this might be one of the reasons why modern 'perfect match' marriages end up in divorce so often while arranged marriages were more successful in the long run(, but don't ask me for sources to back up that allegation).
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#10 Post by Sonomi »

@Mammon

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. First, I just want to clear something up because I did make it a little complicated.

The MC is indeed female at this point. She is the lead singer in the summary above. I don't really mention her until the very end.

LI is the man whom she meets through the whole "gig" ordeal. He is the one who is responisble for organizing the performance. I mostly described his circumstances earlier. Sorry again.

I'm glad that it's a little relatable. I was concerned about that in particular. Singing and drumming is a peculiar combination indeed. As far as I know, romance between band members typically involve the singer and the lead guitarist, so I wanted to try something different with this dynamic. Though I cannot speak to the uniqueness of the idea, as I assume it's been done before. :)

The MMORPG idea came to me a few months ago when I first started thinking about this concept. The original plan was for this to lead to a few comical scenarios between the couple. Not to mention, gaming in general invites scenes that naturally bring other characters into the mix. In this case, she would meet some of his gaming friends. I have little first hand knowledge of the matter, but I thought it would be interesting to have scenes where the couple gets to know the friends of the other person just by being involved in their hobbies. My goal is to tell the story of a romance that doesn't involve completely abandoning current friends, pastimes, and interests.

Though I acknowledge wholeheartedly that the MMO idea is a little stange. I'm actually pleased that you were mildly taken aback by the concept of using this as a bonding activity. Practicality is at stake, but I just thought I would give it a try.

Your mention of how relationships tend to turn out based on shared habits and preferences gave me an idea. Maybe I can include choices along those lines that have a bearing on the ending (stay together as a happy couple, be forced apart by differences, stay together but as an unhappy couple). The thought of writing a bad end does give me pause, however.
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Re: How do I approach romance?

#11 Post by Zelan »

Sonomi wrote:My goal is to tell the story of a romance that doesn't involve completely abandoning current friends, pastimes, and interests.
YES. YES.

If you can pull this off, your VN will be even better than it already is. I have seen so many VNs that just forget about the side characters once the romance heats up; in fact, it's one of my pet peeves (and I've mentioned it here multiple times).
Sonomi wrote:Though I acknowledge wholeheartedly that the MMO idea is a little stange. I'm actually pleased that you were mildly taken aback by the concept of using this as a bonding activity. Practicality is at stake, but I just thought I would give it a try.
The logistics might be tough to work out, but it could make for interesting character development. Video games are fun, but they also tend to cause friction and frustration between people. My sister and her friend love to play video games together, but it often ends with my sister yelling at her friend if her friend messes up somewhere. I could easily see him getting frustrated with her newbie-ness. You could also have a situation where he moves too quickly and leaves her behind, causing her to get angry when he doesn't help her out.
Sonomi wrote:Maybe I can include choices along those lines that have a bearing on the ending (stay together as a happy couple, be forced apart by differences, stay together but as an unhappy couple). The thought of writing a bad end does give me pause, however.
In the end, it's your choice whether or not you want to include bad endings. However, it would be another thing that would add to the realism of the game - sometimes, relationships just don't work out. And hey, they don't necessarily have to be awful endings. It could be a mutual breakup, where they both agree that it just isn't working.

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