Using Different Themes Between Routes

[hikarinakano]

Is this ever a good idea? I have an overarching theme, but each of my 8 main routes have different themes individually.


I think that I might have a theme progression, but maybe I'm just trying to justify randomness.
Route 1 has a general theme of Self-Image v. Worth
Route 6 has a general theme of Chaos v. Order
Route 8 has a general theme of Needs v. Desire, in terms of Self-Interest and Love

And the overall theme/endgame theme is Fate v. Destiny.

Does this sound like an actual progression? Should I drop the idea of each route having a different theme altogether?

[Mammon]

If you think you can make it work, or rather if you think it will be an improvement, go for it. If I remember your story well enough from the previous thread we talked on and assuming the game plot hasn't changed massively since then, it could work. You might want to add one overarcing idea and make the others sub-themes to not confuse the readers, f.e. make the fate v destiny one relevant from start to end and add the others in their respective routes as sub-themes within this theme. If that works, of course.

From what I can remember of your plans, changing the continuity would be a problem though, I don't know if your plan includes this but I can imagine it might. As an example I can give 'Who is Mike?', a story where the different endings have different continuities. There are two suspects, and in different endings both can be the culprit; in some endings you are the doppelganger and in some endings it's the mysterious other guy. In this game, it works. In yours it would not. Take for example your antagonist, if she would be character A in route 1 and then suddenly be Character B in route 2, this wouldn't work. This is of course an overexageration, meant as a clear example. My point is; in your story, changing small continuity changes would be confusing to the reader unless they can be explained.

But yes, different themes for different routes would work. Just don't bind yourself and your story to applying it. I've seen games like that, where each route would have a different mood or idea to it. In a way every harem VN is like that too, each girl has a character and that character colors the theme of their route.

Just wondering about the route 1, 8 and final route themes. They kind of seem like the same thing, Chaos vs Order seems like a contradiction but the others can even be used as synonyms of one another in some cases.

[gekiganwing]

I have an overarching theme, but each of my 8 main routes have different themes individually.

My first thought is "Sure, why not." If this is your goal, then determine how you will achieve it.

How will the reader's choices contribute to the theme of a route? Will the reader be asked to make choices which determine the protagonist's views or morality? Will the reader be able to expect where their decisions will lead? Or will the reader not be able to expect how things will turn out? (In other words, how clear or opaque should the outcome be?)

Most of my knowledge of Fate/Stay Night is secondhand. (I read part of a translated demo during the 2000s, and a few years later, glanced through one of the translated trade paperbacks.) That said, I've heard that F/SN has three routes, and each has its own theme.

Please be careful with the scope of your story. Make sure that you're prepared. Don't tackle more than you can handle.

[hikarinakano]

I wrote a bunch of stuff and realized that I probably misinterpreted what you said

Anyways, I'm probably just interpreting the themes differently.

Self Image is how the characters see themselves, while Worth is how other characters see them.
The route 8 one I'm not seeing them as synonymous, but it's more of a fundamental character Truth v. Lie, so that can just be a natural part of the character arcs.
The final one is Fate v. Destiny. Fate here is the simple chain of cause and effect, but Destiny is more of what the MC was born to do. It's time travel, so they're different. The final, much shorter route is just the conclusion of this thematic conflict; it's explored in all of the other routes, partially by nature of the plot.

I'm still struggling to understand the whole continuity thing that you're describing. I'm not using a common route to differentiate between the routes, but rather I'm having the ending from one carry over into the next. The ending that I came up with is that due to the original time-manipulator's selfishness, she managed to accidentally create one situation (naturally after a few hundred) in which the MC just discovers time travel herself, and just passes the torch at that point, from one MC to the next. Basically, I now have a really good Impact Character, to carry the thematic resolution. This causes no issues in my time travel rules, and it also allows me to create distinct differences between the routes. Though maybe I'm also logically messing things up inadvertently by doing that (I hope not).

Just in case I'm guilty of messing up themes for my other (yet-to-be-written) routes, I'm just going to dump them all here.

1: Self-Image v. Worth
2: (Literal) Lies v. Reality
3: Dreams v. Logic
4: Unknown as of yet; as I haven't even fully determined the plot resolution.
5: Faith/Lack therof
6: Chaos v. Order (pros/cons of both)
7: See 4
8: [changing this one]
Final/Overarching: Fate v. Destiny

I have a lot of time on my hands, and skills to use during that time, I guess. I have nothing better to do, so not being able to handle it isn't what I'm worried about. It's keeping the scale large while also having the story make sense. It's a gentle balance. As are the answers to the questions you're throwing. Obviously, making the results of the choices crystal-clear will make it a bit less immersive, but making them really hard to determine will do the same. Also, I did some revising and decided that each route would have five endings based on the player's choices - four for the typical "tragedy, comedy, comi-tragedy, tragi-comedy", and another which is just blatantly a dead end, of the anticlimax variety.

Thanks for the help, so far!

[pigionsdeliver]

I personally wouldn't use the themes you have stated. Now it's not the themes themselves that I wouldn't use but they seem far too broad. They sort of need more defining before they become useful otherwise you will end up forcing meaning.
I usually go by how each route will affect my character and not simply the story. This will give me plot anyway by getting the character from goal A or goal B and showing how that happens. This is only because my writing is very character-centric but for people more focused on plot it can also be applied there.
To illustrate what I mean without actually knowing your plot... Need vs Desire.
MC through a series of events will fight for what s/he desires most sacrificing all that is considered necessary and good to him/her. Will desire continue to rule or will he/she choose necessity over desire?
Turning themes into taglines can prove to be more useful than having one large idea because there are 101 ways to implement it. So overall you have done very little to help define what you want to do or where you want to go. Which is like having the map of Paris without any road names.
So what I would suggest is expanding these themes into how you plan on showing/implementing them in your story.

Another way you can use these themes is by putting it into a character. I prefer this method as it helps show the impact each of the characters have on the MC while not having any conflict of interests with your overarching theme which usually remains grounded in your MC's development.
Again to illustrate this Choas and Order
XXX is a reckless gangster and is always dragging MC into his problems from a past secret while YYY is a straitlaced old friend that throughout it all tries to keep both his friends on the straight and narrow. The moment MC met XXX they knew they were destined to always be by their side but perhaps fate has another plan for him and YYY is just what it has prescribed.
Sorry this was not the best example but is basically what I was trying to get at.

Overall each route can have a theme but, like the above commented, don't force it. The ways I stated are sort of how I like to use themes so might not work for everyone of course. I think themes are great to get your ideas off the ground and find some connection between events and how you can quality check your ideas and reign them into the plot and ensure everything remains consistent. But don't let it restrict you completely and be open to themes changing expanding or even being overall useless and scrapped.

I hope that helps.

[hikarinakano]

That actually helps a lot!
I think a part of it is that I largely misinterpreted Dramatica theory and ended up simplifying things far more than I should have, leading to these broad themes. I think that I'll try what you said and put the theme in play with the characters. I'm trying not to force themes, either. Instead of writing the plot to fit the theme, I'm mostly doing it the other way around and trying to find the theme that best supports the plot.

Also, I think that I'll make a route outline. At this point, it's almost necessary so that I can keep track of which endings lead to which other routes.

[Mammon]

Self Image is how the characters see themselves, while Worth is how other characters see them.
The route 8 one I'm not seeing them as synonymous, but it's more of a fundamental character Truth v. Lie, so that can just be a natural part of the character arcs.
The final one is Fate v. Destiny. Fate here is the simple chain of cause and effect, but Destiny is more of what the MC was born to do. It's time travel, so they're different. The final, much shorter route is just the conclusion of this thematic conflict; it's explored in all of the other routes, partially by nature of the plot.

Ah, that makes sense. I would've used 'Reputation' rather than 'Worth' to clarify the difference even though Worth would indeed be a better description in terms of symbolism. And I would have pictured free will as the counterpart for either fate or destiny, but come to think of it I hate the very idea of that cliche in stories like these so I'm actually glad it's not free will (a.k.a. the MC just stubbornly pushing through and that suddenly changing the tides)

Although the phrasing itself shouldn't matter, it's a symbolic meaning woven into the story so the actual words 'something v something else' wouldn't actually appear. Would they?

I'm still struggling to understand the whole continuity thing that you're describing.

Sorry, my bad. I know I described it badly but I hoped I described it just good enough to be understood. Essentially, in different routes there will be things different that should be the same. Let's assume for example that there's a shovel in MC's shack in all routes, but then one route it is gone for no reason. There are things which are bound to be different between some routes and things that are the same, the problem I'm talking about is that certain things that should be the same are suddenly different.
Argh, this is a really difficult thing to describe without an example, which is why I kind of hoped you played 'Who is Mike?'. Take for another example anything that happens before the date limit you can travel back to, everything before that beginning should be the same in all routes. A continuity mess-up would be a difference in these supposedly unchanging events.
I just remembered that 'Reflections on the River' also features such a continuity shift, maybe you played that game? And with that one I can actually say it a bit clearer because it happens in the beginning rather than the end thus no(/less) spoilers. There are two routes, kidnap the prince or the princess. If you kidnap the princess, magic is real and you're actually a witch. If you kidnap the prince then your magic is actually smoke bombs and magic doesn't really exist. The same story, but there are two entirely different universes. One where the MC is a charlatan pretending to be a witch and one where magic actually exist. Not a problem for this story, as it was an intentional design. The problem I might see appearing in your story is that you make less obvious changes like this unnoticed that the player will see but you don't.

Now the problem in your story that I could see happening is that if you were to apply different themes, not the events rather than the choice system and the personalities of characters would change in ways that the audience would expect to remain the same, along some differences that make sense. But I agree it's a vague concept, I can barely even comprehend how to explain it.

Your idea to explain the time travel, if indeed as flawless as you say, does sound good though. Wasn't talking about that.

Also, I think that I'll make a route outline. At this point, it's almost necessary so that I can keep track of which endings lead to which other routes.

Wait, you didn't start with that? I start with that for practically kinetic stories to order and keep track of everything, how in the blazing hell did you get this far without making an outline/summary?

Overall each route can have a theme but, like the above commented, don't force it. The ways I stated are sort of how I like to use themes so might not work for everyone of course. I think themes are great to get your ideas off the ground and find some connection between events and how you can quality check your ideas and reign them into the plot and ensure everything remains consistent. But don't let it restrict you completely and be open to themes changing expanding or even being overall useless and scrapped.

Good point. A theme is useful and appreciated by the audience if done well, but don't place the theme over the story. I'd personally wouldn't start looking for a theme until I have the story thought out or hit a writer's block, to assure that the theme fits the story rather than the other way around. So;
Plan the story => Pick a theme => Write the story
Rather than putting the theme at the beginning.

[hikarinakano]

Although the phrasing itself shouldn't matter, it's a symbolic meaning woven into the story so the actual words 'something v something else' wouldn't actually appear. Would they?

Well, it's a theme, so it's all subtext... right? Blatantly saying the theme anywhere seems a little bit in-your-face.

I just remembered that 'Reflections on the River' also features such a continuity shift, maybe you played that game? And with that one I can actually say it a bit clearer because it happens in the beginning rather than the end thus no(/less) spoilers. There are two routes, kidnap the prince or the princess. If you kidnap the princess, magic is real and you're actually a witch. If you kidnap the prince then your magic is actually smoke bombs and magic doesn't really exist. The same story, but there are two entirely different universes. One where the MC is a charlatan pretending to be a witch and one where magic actually exist. Not a problem for this story, as it was an intentional design. The problem I might see appearing in your story is that you make less obvious changes like this unnoticed that the player will see but you don't.

Now the problem in your story that I could see happening is that if you were to apply different themes, not the events rather than the choice system and the personalities of characters would change in ways that the audience would expect to remain the same, along some differences that make sense. But I agree it's a vague concept, I can barely even comprehend how to explain it.

Yeah, with something of this scale I certainly do need to pay attention to those little things. I think I get what you mean, now. I tell myself that I'm not going to accidentally change some fundamental rule between routes (or conveniently drop some random item where it never existed before [without an explainable reason]), but obviously, a good couple of extra edits after I'm done wouldn't hurt.

Character consistency is another issue I'll keep a lookout for. I can see it getting difficult four routes in, to keep 10 characters the same fundamentally, as they were in Route 1.

if indeed as flawless as you say

What could possibly go wrong in my first set of drafts?

how in the blazing hell did you get this far without making an outline/summary?

Because I wrote my beginning and ending from the start, probably. It gave me a launching point and a goal.

Well, I did make an overall plot outline and a summary for every single character and the plot itself, along with vague descriptions of how all of the painfully obvious time-travel limitations work.
Now, that didn't cover how one route can progress into the next one, nor did it keep track of (or contain at all) the changes between routes as defined by previously existing routes.

But most of that is in my head, including a good number of endings and character reveals/plot points. What's not in my head is in a horribly unorganized Notepad document on my flash drive. But that was when I had first started. Now that I've (minus literally 100 words) finished my first route, I've acquired the need for more organization. Especially since I've begun to think about how the ending of one route will directly change the next route.

Ultimately, even though I'm saying that I'm going to have 8 clearly-defined routes, that's becoming

Code: Select all

One route with 4 endings, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route, leading to
4 variations of the next route.

So, it's actually 1 route plus 7 routes with slight spins on them.
The point is, I need to keep track of this now.
Along with all of the theme stuff that I have laying around on my phone.
It's not like I have anything to do for the next week, so I'll probably take the time to put all of my working copies and my backups in some cloud drive. And draw route outline webs.

[Sonomi]

I think you have a good idea. You certainly can create a style of progression that both makes sense to the readers and sheds a new light on the story.

I gather you're writing about time travel. First, I want to recommend that you watch or read Steins;Gate if you have not already, because it follows a similar line of thought.

The overarching plot is save X, but like pigionsdeliver mentioned, you can find different themes within each character's storyline.

The MC discovers time travel by accident. He keeps jumping back to a specific date, changing what he does until he ultimately prevents a girl's death. The progression here is information: what he knew before VS what he knows now. The MC is the same person, in the same situation, but he has knowledge that he could not have acquired without living through those days.

In other words, it might be useful to determine what exactly needs to carry over into the next iteration of your story. How will this affect what your MC does in the later routes? Maybe his/her mindset changes. That could lead to a different internal conflict involving one of your X VS Y themes. Forgive me if I misinterpreted something.

On organization, I would recommend using a software called yWriter. I had a terrible, terrible sense of order when I first started writing my story. This helped me condense all of my files (character info, scenes, random project notes, chapters, etc.) into one place.

[hikarinakano]

I have indeed read and watched Steins;Gate, but as a result, there are times when I have to be careful not to shamelessly steal a concept from it. In terms of story structure, it is a pretty good example of a time travel story, though.

I've actually heavily toyed with the idea of having a character who is literally the MC from the future, who sticks around to mess with things to their own ends. Most versions of this character have been flung off into the deep end, one way or another.
In my story (since I haven't yet said in this thread the details), I have three characters (assuming we include this character) that are absolutely key to the story: The original time traveler character, the MC, and the MC from the future. The former and latter of these three both influence the MC one way or another. The latter character will always die, but they'll try to make things easier for the next iteration of the MC while also making their point to both of the two other characters. The original time traveler remembers things from every route, but generally refrains from telling the MC about these. The MC from the future will usually act in opposition to this character, and either bring up the topic in a way that it can't be avoided or blatantly say it. I think that this is enough to affect the choices that the MC can make, also setting up the thematic conflict.

I think that I'll try that yWriter program, too. Thanks!

[Parataxis]

This seems to have gone in a different direction, but to address the first post, I actually had a similar idea for my own game and the implementation of it is less difficult than you might think. In my case each theme is weaved into the plot by the focus on a particular character, accessed through a character rout, who frames the dilemma that the protagonist faces at the end of the story in a different light. The events of the story may play out similarly, but the context of the events changes as each of the characters brings their mirror to hold up to the protagonist's problems.

The concern I have with your proposal is that your routes seem very very scattered. I feel like trying to do something totally absolutely different with each route might end up feeling a little schizophrenic. In my own game, there is a solid grounding theme for the story that appears in all routes--grief--and then each route comes from different perspectives on grief and different ways to deal with it. "The Cost of Revenge", "The Nature of Truth" and "Choosing your own Destiny" are all pretty wide themes (In fact many of them appear similar to themes you've proposed) however, if you know the story is about a grief-stricken character looking for her friend's murderer then they all fall neatly into place. What will the MC do when she finds the person who killed her friend? What if it's some one she trusted? What if her friend's death is something that was fated to be?

I don't really see the grounding structure of your list of themes, so I can't really tell if you can successfully tie them all together or not. You seem to have a strong underlying sense of Fate in the story, since there's time travel and the MC from the future does indeed always die. You even mentioned it as an overarching theme. However, I can't really see how it connects the other themes together. Dreams vs Logic? Self image vs Reputation? Faith Vs Suspicion? These are all themes yeah, but I don't really see how each of them would tie into the Fate/Destiny framework. Or what they have to do with Time Travel for that matter.

I feel like in order for this idea to be fully successful, every theme you deal with would need to feel like it was part of the same story. Like they would all exist in some aspect or another of every single route and then each route would accentuate a particular character/situation/relationship to strengthen one theme or another into the dominant theme for that route. It might be possible to do that here, but I am just not seeing how.

[hikarinakano]

I don't really see the grounding structure of your list of themes, so I can't really tell if you can successfully tie them all together or not. You seem to have a strong underlying sense of Fate in the story, since there's time travel and the MC from the future does indeed always die. You even mentioned it as an overarching theme. However, I can't really see how it connects the other themes together. Dreams vs Logic? Self image vs Reputation? Faith Vs Suspicion? These are all themes yeah, but I don't really see how each of them would tie into the Fate/Destiny framework. Or what they have to do with Time Travel for that matter.

I feel like in order for this idea to be fully successful, every theme you deal with would need to feel like it was part of the same story. Like they would all exist in some aspect or another of every single route and then each route would accentuate a particular character/situation/relationship to strengthen one theme or another into the dominant theme for that route. It might be possible to do that here, but I am just not seeing how.

Ooh, this one's challenging to respond to, because it's completely correct.
One idea that brings to mind is instead of giving each route its own theme, giving every character their own theme and seeing how it holds up to the protagonist's theme. So say, one character's theme could be blind faith (as a specification of Faith) and the MC's may be something related to lying. That creates an obvious conflict. Then I also have two levels: the external and internal themes.
Now, in order to do that with respect to my route order and whatnot, I'm likely going to have to dedicate a route to every major character at the very least. I think that that alone will change how the protagonist solves problems and by extension, that'll keep each route interesting/different enough for the reader. Assigning each route to a character also lets me limit how many branches go into each route, since currently there's an obscene number of them, to the point that each route is a game in and of itself.

Hammering out these issues early on is really useful for me, by the way.