Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plot VN

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hikarinakano
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Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plot VN

#1 Post by hikarinakano »

I've been setting this idea on the backburner for a while now, but it's been bugging me for a few days so I figured I'd just ask.
My protagonist has a lot of issues with caring about her own health, and this includes self-abuse.
Because that issue is a large part of one of the most important character conflicts in the story, I was figuring whether or not I should make a self-abuse scene my character's introductory scene. I see some significant advantages and disadvantages to this approach:


Advantages:
  • ○ I can establish one of the protagonist's main internal problems right away
    ○ I can portray her thoughts on her own self-abuse
    ○ I can blow away an in-game day's worth of characterization in a single scene, with the subtleties involved, such as small self-deprecating thoughts
    ○ It's an interesting beginning and can be a hook in its own right
    ○ By starting with this, I can make the reader more inclined to think that she'll continue to do this in the future, so that it's not a shock when she suddenly does it later
    ○ I can make it clear that she's a suicidal person from the start instead of making it a shock later on, since this leads into one of the story's morals over the course of the entirety of it
Disadvantages:
  • ○ I could alienate readers who are lead to believe that the game is really just porn without plot
    ○ The readers probably won't be invested enough in the character yet to care, so it could just have no effect at all
    ○ It could ruin the feel of the game, by starting very dark, when I want the story to descend to that place
    ○ I could alienate readers who aren't interested in the game for porn, which I hope is most of them, because again, this isn't supposed to be porn-without-plot
What are your opinions on this?

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Re: Opening with a sex scene...

#2 Post by gekiganwing »

hikarinakano wrote:My protagonist has a lot of issues with caring about her own health, and this includes self-abuse.
Because that issue is a large part of one of the most important character conflicts in the story, I was figuring whether or not I should make a self-abuse scene my character's introductory scene.
Are you using the term self-abuse as a euphemism for masturbation? Or is the protagonist hurting herself in a physical way?
hikarinakano wrote: ○ I could alienate readers who are lead to believe that the game is really just porn without plot
○ The readers probably won't be invested enough in the character yet to care, so it could just have no effect at all
○ It could ruin the feel of the game, by starting very dark, when I want the story to descend to that place
Think about things such as...

* Tone. Make every effort to convey your intentions for the scene. Especially if you're writing it in order to say "This is depressing," or "this is horrifying."
* Details. How much will you show through pictures and text?
* Approximate content rating. Would the scene make sense in an R-rated movie or a Mature-rated game? Or is the scene so graphic that it would deserve an adults-only rating?

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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#3 Post by Yunou »

You could easily accomplish what you need to accomplish characterization-wise without using overly graphic sexual imagery. I wrote an opening scene similar to this one once for similar purposes--the character abused drugs, alcohol, and casual sex for escapism so an opening scene in which they are engaged in sexual activities with a stranger seemed most appropriate for introductions.

I focused on my character's internal thoughts rather than what they were physically doing and kept the scene as PG-13 or R as possible (as opposed to NC-17). The scene starts out with MC and the stranger's conversation on some other stranger's bed in a back bedroom--it's made clear he's a stranger because "I haven't seen you here before," type dialogue ensues as MC and stranger are taking off clothes with the sound of the party is going on outside. MC high on pills at the time and thinking about the music vibrating through the walls more than the guy they are hooking up with.

It pretty much ends right before they do the deed because they get interrupted by plot, but the scene makes it clear that this isn't something unusual for my MC and had said interruption not occurred, they'd definitely be doing it. MC is also seen popping some pills on the way home from the scene and downing them with alcohol.

I think you could accomplish something similar and not have to worry about alienating anyone or making people think it's a set-up to a PWP game.

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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#4 Post by Mammon »

hikarinakano wrote:
  • ○ I can establish one of the protagonist's main internal problems right away
    ○ I can portray her thoughts on her own self-abuse
    ○ I can blow away an in-game day's worth of characterization in a single scene, with the subtleties involved, such as small self-deprecating thoughts
    ○ It's an interesting beginning and can be a hook in its own right
    ○ By starting with this, I can make the reader more inclined to think that she'll continue to do this in the future, so that it's not a shock when she suddenly does it later
    ○ I can make it clear that she's a suicidal person from the start instead of making it a shock later on, since this leads into one of the story's morals over the course of the entirety of it
It really comes down to how you're planning to do the scene, and if you see more virtue in doing it this way your opinion is the most important. I do agree that if the first scene can be used for the first four pro's well that it can be a very beneficial choice to keep it in. However,
hikarinakano wrote:
  • ○ I could alienate readers who are lead to believe that the game is really just porn without plot
    ○ The readers probably won't be invested enough in the character yet to care, so it could just have no effect at all
    ○ It could ruin the feel of the game, by starting very dark, when I want the story to descend to that place
    ○ I could alienate readers who aren't interested in the game for porn, which I hope is most of them, because again, this isn't supposed to be porn-without-plot
I can imagine myself being alienated just as you're expecting from points 1,2 and 4. If you don't do it right, and many movies, games, books etc. of even the highest calibre can't do sex right, 1 and 2 may indeed both apply and combine into a bad first impression that will lead to 4 as a result. And avoiding 3 would indeed be better because now a lot of scenes after the first scene might be more emotionally dull in comparison.
hikarinakano wrote:My protagonist has a lot of issues with caring about her own health, and this includes self-abuse.
Because that issue is a large part of one of the most important character conflicts in the story, I was figuring whether or not I should make a self-abuse scene my character's introductory scene.
So personally I would say that it might be best avoided, but I don't know anything of the scene or the character aside from 'sex scene' and 'self-abusive?' so I can't be a good judge yet.

What I'm wondering; does it need to be a sex scene for it to show her self-abusive nature? Because when I was imagining the scene it is indeed two sweaty bodies and me reading the inner thoughts of one of them, at a point in time where I as the reader wouldn't even know yet whether this character is the MC or even their gender.
My second imagining of this scene was a 'the day after' scene. The sun comes up and illuminates all the ugly things that MC would prefer to keep hidden in the dark, and through visual cues that she describes and thoughts/feelings she has, she described what happened the night before without actually showing that sex scene. For Yunou's scene f.e. the description of "There were three empty needles on the ground, two empty bottles of alcohol on the cabinet and one empty husk of a man lying beside me on the bed." would in one sentence describe both the mood and all three topics, if the sex scene would happen as opposed to being interrupted just before the deed.

Which actually brings me to their suggestion:
Yunou wrote:I focused on my character's internal thoughts rather than what they were physically doing and kept the scene as PG-13 or R as possible.
Can you do this? Could you describe the scene in such a way that it brings forth all the character traits of the MC that you want to show without actually showing the reader an explicit sex scene? That they know there's sex going on, but the actual hentai part of the story is so obscure it's almost as if it's happening in the next room.
Combined with the other parts of the story, this could give a nice scene in the future: If you have time travel you can go back to it and see it in third person (maybe even literally seeing it happen in the next room). The opening scene is so vague that the audience didn't actually know what was going on in physical terms and only know her feelings about it. Then you go back and watch it from afar with neutrality and they get their answer. That way the first scene could both be the one where you can do your pro's as you want and avoid the con's of making a no-plot hentai scene, because the audience will see that part of the scene once they're more familiar with her character and situation.
Would that work?
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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#5 Post by RotGtIE »

hikarinakano wrote:
  • ○ The readers probably won't be invested enough in the character yet to care, so it could just have no effect at all
    ○ It could ruin the feel of the game, by starting very dark, when I want the story to descend to that place
These are your biggest problems. Other than for virtue signalling purposes, nobody actually wants to read a story about a character who doesn't endear themselves to the audience prior to establishing their conflict. The low point is typically in the second act for a reason.

On a more personal note, I would recommend a different premise for a story than Depression Quest 2: Electric Boogaloo.

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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#6 Post by hikarinakano »

Woah, lots of text.
RotGtIE wrote:On a more personal note, I would recommend a different premise for a story than Depression Quest 2: Electric Boogaloo.
That's not the premise of the story, but it's a major character problem that I want to find a way to establish early on. I suppose that there are better internal conflicts that I need to set up too, but this one popped out as effective for an opening, in many ways.
...Though I suppose that means that it shouldn't be the opening scene, because it doesn't actually lead into the plot, it just sets up one of the largest sub-plots.
gekiganwing wrote:Are you using the term self-abuse as a euphemism for masturbation? Or is the protagonist hurting herself in a physical way?
I suppose I am using self-abuse as a euphemism, but I don't consider the two to be synonymous. And yes, I am referring to physical self-abuse, and less so emotional self-abuse, though there is an amount of that.
Yunou wrote:You could easily accomplish what you need to accomplish characterization-wise without using overly graphic sexual imagery. I wrote an opening scene similar to this one once for similar purposes--the character abused drugs, alcohol, and casual sex for escapism so an opening scene in which they are engaged in sexual activities with a stranger seemed most appropriate for introductions.
This is an interesting way to do it, and it's a good idea. I do indeed want to focus on the internal rather than the external, especially since the details of what she's doing aren't important, it's the reasons why.
Mammon wrote: It really comes down to how you're planning to do the scene, and if you see more virtue in doing it this way your opinion is the most important. I do agree that if the first scene can be used for the first four pro's well that it can be a very beneficial choice to keep it in. However,

I can imagine myself being alienated just as you're expecting from points 1,2 and 4. If you don't do it right, and many movies, games, books etc. of even the highest calibre can't do sex right, 1 and 2 may indeed both apply and combine into a bad first impression that will lead to 4 as a result. And avoiding 3 would indeed be better because now a lot of scenes after the first scene might be more emotionally dull in comparison.

So personally I would say that it might be best avoided, but I don't know anything of the scene or the character aside from 'sex scene' and 'self-abusive?' so I can't be a good judge yet.
It's more masturbation, since she actively separates herself from people and is distrustful of them. That last line you said is probably the impression of most people, so that's more helpful than anything else. Since the audience won't be able to grab any context for that scene, it'll likely hit every single disadvantagous thing that I listed.
Mammon wrote:My second imagining of this scene was a 'the day after' scene. The sun comes up and illuminates all the ugly things that MC would prefer to keep hidden in the dark, and through visual cues that she describes and thoughts/feelings she has, she described what happened the night before without actually showing that sex scene. For Yunou's scene f.e. the description of "There were three empty needles on the ground, two empty bottles of alcohol on the cabinet and one empty husk of a man lying beside me on the bed." would in one sentence describe both the mood and all three topics, if the sex scene would happen as opposed to being interrupted just before the deed.
Making it implicit actually sounds like a good idea, because that raises questions as opposed to answers. Depending on how vague the MC is being, it could be hard to tell exactly what happened the night before, so it could hold reader interest long enough for me to introduce the plot.
Mammon wrote:Could you describe the scene in such a way that it brings forth all the character traits of the MC that you want to show without actually showing the reader an explicit sex scene? That they know there's sex going on, but the actual hentai part of the story is so obscure it's almost as if it's happening in the next room.
Combined with the other parts of the story, this could give a nice scene in the future: If you have time travel you can go back to it and see it in third person (maybe even literally seeing it happen in the next room). The opening scene is so vague that the audience didn't actually know what was going on in physical terms and only know her feelings about it. Then you go back and watch it from afar with neutrality and they get their answer. That way the first scene could both be the one where you can do your pro's as you want and avoid the con's of making a no-plot hentai scene, because the audience will see that part of the scene once they're more familiar with her character and situation.
Would that work?
Welp, so much for generating replies as I read. But yeah, implicit stuff is better than explicit stuff. Even with the time travel stuff though, that's going to be a scene that you'll only see once, because rules. Allowing the the reader to go back and see it a second time would raise a plot hole, which would lead to other plot holes.
RotGtIE wrote:These are your biggest problems. Other than for virtue signalling purposes, nobody actually wants to read a story about a character who doesn't endear themselves to the audience prior to establishing their conflict. The low point is typically in the second act for a reason.
I wouldn't say that this is a "low point among low points", but yeah, it is something that should be saved for later.
gekiganwing wrote:* Approximate content rating. Would the scene make sense in an R-rated movie or a Mature-rated game? Or is the scene so graphic that it would deserve an adults-only rating?
Well, even without that scene, I think that the VN as a whole would likely be AO. First off, anything with explicit sex is usually 18+/AO. Then you need to consider prolonged graphic violence, which isn't something that I think about as I write, but it's there. I tend to just ignore the ratings board as I'm writing, and then look at it later and say, "Oops."

I just looked at AO, CERO Z, Classification Board X 18, and PEGI 18.
...
Yeah, I don't think that I was ever working for a rating. No matter what ratings system I look at, it's always the top rating. Graphic sex, bloody dismemberment, drugs, language, crime, prolonged graphic violence... the list extends to nearly the whole spectrum. I guess that's to be expected of a VN like this one, though. That kind of thing is too deeply ingrained in this project to just lower the rating.

So yeah. I'm probably not going to include the scene or else I'm going to heavily modify it, unless anyone has a good reason for me not to.

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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#7 Post by Sonomi »

hikarinakano wrote:So yeah. I'm probably not going to include the scene or else I'm going to heavily modify it, unless anyone has a good reason for me not to.
Is this a commercial project? If so, who would be in your target audience? I feel those are the most important things to consider when you're making that final decision.
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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#8 Post by hikarinakano »

1. Well, yeah. It's something like 8 or 9 routes long, with each route having about 60K-75K words.
2. I don't really know anything about target audience. It's kind of Sci-Fi, but it also has fantasy elements. I never really understood genres or any of that, and I usually see that as limiting.

As for the final decision, I think I'm just going to turn it into implicit context because it will affect the tone of the story, not because of target audience.

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Re: Opening with a hentai scene, in a non-hentai-without-plo

#9 Post by usagi236 »

You can create a scene which is heavily implied that the characters are having sex or depicting sexual acts without actually showing much at all. The anime Kuzu no Honkai/Scum's Wish does this well, where most of the anime is about the sexual relations of the character, yet no genitalia is ever shown, or even bare naked breasts. There is a lot of touching and kissing, and the viewer knows more is happening without more being shown. This is because despite the sexual nature of the show, the scenes are not meant to entice you. They should disgust you or make you feel sad. Similarly to your VN, the heroine is in poor mental condition and the viewer often dislikes her because of her actions. It's not a VN but you can equally learn a lot from an anime, so check that out if you think it may help.

To pull it off well, narration and writing should be good. Think: will the VN be narrated? It may be a good idea if you don't want to show too much and convey the wrong message. When someone is voicing it the way you pictured, the tone will be very different. The writing could have a tone that's ashamed or distraught, or unattached, showing her uninterest in the activity. What's the narrative time? Past, present or future? This can effect the perspective of your character, and change how people perceive her.

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