How visual novel writing is different

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Kuiper
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How visual novel writing is different

#1 Post by Kuiper »

I just wrote a blog post about how visual novel writing differs from other forms of fiction writing: http://www.route59games.com/how-visual- ... different/

I wrote this post mainly to address questions that I often see from writers outside of VN development who want to understand the writing side of VN development. So, the first half of this post was written mostly for a "non-VN" audience, and might point out some things that are already fairly obvious to people who are enfranchised VN devs. (That said, not everyone who browses Lemmasoft is a seasoned veteran, so hopefully some folks here find that part helpful as well.)

To me, the more interesting part of this post is the second half, which deals with some of the more subtle and non-obvious parts of how visual novel production differs from normal writing, mainly the new specific writing skills and techniques I've had to cultivate as a VN writer. Because this part of the post is specific to the way that I've learned how to write VN scripts, I understand that not everyone will agree with it. So, if you do disagree, let me know! This is the kind of thing that I enjoy discussing.
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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#2 Post by Mammon »

Interesting article. My thoughts:
-I personally disagree with the severity with which you described the problems with the textbox. Scrolling back isn't difficult or distracting unless it's with an engine that requires you to click a 'back' button rather than scrolling (such as ren'py on android) and even then it's not really that much of a problem unless the reader is distracted while reading. You usually don't pay attention to singular sentences rather than the whole story, at least I don't experience the 'every line standing on his own' problem any more with VN's than with prose. (in fact, if the regular writing has longer paragraphs, the opposite can be true.)
Unless the response of speaker 2: 'Right.' is not corresponding with what the audience would expect the answer to be (in which it's a writing mistake rather than a format issue), scrolling back usually doesn't happen. The 'wrong' example you gave doesn't seem wrong to me, even though speaker one didn't expect an answer there's no confusion from speaker 2 answering to confirm it. It would have to be something where we'd expect speaker 2 to disagree with spearker 1 rather than agreeing, the problem that you're describing seems to be the same for VN and regular writing alike.

-I don't quite understand your conclusion to 'Concessions to form...', you explain what the problem is in regular prose but don't quite made your opinion of how this applies to VN, at least to me. The use of 'concession' suggests your opinion is negative without much suggesting the opposite, but your previous explanations of having the name and sprite above the textbox suggest that VN's don't actually have this problem the way prose does.

(One tip: be sure to refer in text to your images. F.ex. when you described what a CG is, be sure to literally spell out 'a example can be seen below' or something of the likes. It may seem very obvious to you and me, but I can guarantee you that there will be people who won't get it because they're used to little/no-purpose images being added for the reader's pleasure.)
Parataxis wrote:Dialogue: Assume you have a single line that needs to be presented in two text boxes. How/where you break up that line can drastically affect how the audience perceives its meaning. There's an intense mechanical control over pacing in visual novel writing that's a very powerful tool.
Oh, right. That can indeed be annoying at times, even when using {w} or the extend command. If it's not done right I assume the first half of the sentence to be a new sentence and read it again, only to be annoyed by seeing it's the same one. How to properly do this is very difficult though. However, considering it's something that prose writers can't do at all, it's still an advantage of the format. :D
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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#3 Post by Parataxis »

I am with Mammon on the textbox issues. I usually find that in the flow of a scene people are unlikely to get confused by a short affirmation text box unless they, I don't know, saved and quit for the night on the "right" text box--which still doesn't preclude them from scrolling back. However, one thing that does affect how you write with text box that you didn't mention is the ability to control the flow of narration by making the player advance through them. I've found this to be incredibly useful for, say, presenting a character who is internally arguing with themselves or creating suspense. Even in Dialogue: Assume you have a single line that needs to be presented in two text boxes. How/where you break up that line can drastically affect how the audience perceives its meaning. There's an intense mechanical control over pacing in visual novel writing that's a very powerful tool.

I guess overall I found the piece focused on the difficulties and not on the opportunities of the format, and perhaps that is what you intended. But as a writer who as gone from prose to VN writing I found the discussion prescriptive. You set up problems with the text box to solve them by introducing the cool presentation of the project you are working on (Which *is* cool don't get me wrong!) and it's an effective piece if the point is to get people interested in the unusual project. However, the problems you presented seem illusory to me--or at least a matter of style. I would find your first example of dialogue just as acceptable as your fixed version, with simply different character resonances.

That said, your project looks really elaborately cool and I will definitely check it out when ya'll are done.

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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#4 Post by Kuiper »

Mammon wrote:The 'wrong' example you gave doesn't seem wrong to me, even though speaker one didn't expect an answer there's no confusion from speaker 2 answering to confirm it.
So, I might be responding to your word choice here rather than the actual sentiment behind it, but the example I provided wasn't intended to be "wrong" in the strict sense. When it comes to writing, very few things are strictly wrong. We have rules of grammar and spelling, but apart from that, most judgments that we make about writing are subjective. Even negative statements like "this story is confusing" or "these characters are inconsistent" don't claim that anything is objectively wrong with a piece, just that it could be better.

"It could be better" is the basis of our craft. Sometimes, it means tuning something up from "good" to "slightly more good." There are sometimes when I write a paragraph, and realize that I used the word "brown" in two consecutive sentences. Objectively, there should be nothing wrong with that. But I think to myself, "You know, I think this paragraph would work better if I didn't use the word brown twice in such close succession." So I find a different way to describe the thing I'm writing about, and it seems largely inconsequential, but the finished product comes out with a slightly better aesthetic. Sometimes, you write a sentence describing the texture of a chair, and when you replace the word "wood" with "oak," it just comes out better.

So in the post I linked, I don't mean to overstate the importance of formatting. It's not, "Let's take things that are bad and make them good." But if there are two ways you could present a line, and one is slightly better than the other, why not go with the version that is slightly better in your own subjective measure? It's more about the "tune up," trying to find a composition that feels better in that impossible-to-quantify way, the same way that somehow, the description of an oak chair feels more effective than the description of a wood chair, or the description of a stone floor seems to work better than the description of a rock floor. Once you get several years into the journey of self-improvement as a writer, these are the kinds of things that you focus on: subjective things that subtly improve the work in ways that will be invisible to most readers. Even when there is no "correct" way to do it, word choice matters. Sentence length matters. The way that you organize words on a page matters.

Your post states that "there's nothing wrong with the line as you originally wrote it." That's totally correct, and I don't think that we have any disagreement there. My question to you is this: do you think that the "revised" versions of those lines are more effective than the original lines, or do you think they are worse? If you think that I made the line worse by revising it, then maybe we do disagree, but to me it feels like your point is that "revision isn't necessary..." which I would agree with, in the same sense that polish is not necessary. But just because this kind of fine-tuning isn't strictly necessary doesn't mean it's something to be avoided.

Also, as a writer I've kind of reached the point where that kind of revision doesn't even become necessary, because rather than writing a "meh" line and then fixing it, I just write it the "fixed" way from the start. Like a lot of writing technique, this isn't the kind of thing that I usually apply consciously to what I'm writing; it's the kind of thing that becomes natural with practice. And a lot of the benefit of practice is getting these tiny, subtle, almost imperceptible improvements and internalizing them so that at the end of a year, I can look back at the stuff that I wrote 12 months ago and say, "This is competent, maybe this is even good, and as an editor I might not even change anything about it, but if I were to write the same story today, I'd probably write it slightly differently, and those slight differences would improve the work overall." Maybe the reader won't consciously recognize or appreciate all of them, but I will.
Mammon wrote:-I don't quite understand your conclusion to 'Concessions to form...', you explain what the problem is in regular prose but don't quite made your opinion of how this applies to VN, at least to me.
My point is that the "dialog tag issue" is unique to traditional pose (as in, it does not apply to other forms of writing, like screenplays and visual novels), and much in the same way that traditional prose has issues and limitations related to its form, so too does visual novel writing. It was a comparison to show how the two are analogous, "similar" in the sense that "they both have issues that are unique to them," not "similar" in the sense that "they both have the same issues." You're correct in identifying that the dialog tag issue doesn't apply to VNs, and that was exactly my point.

Parataxis wrote:one thing that does affect how you write with text box that you didn't mention is the ability to control the flow of narration by making the player advance through them. I've found this to be incredibly useful for, say, presenting a character who is internally arguing with themselves or creating suspense. Even in Dialogue: Assume you have a single line that needs to be presented in two text boxes. How/where you break up that line can drastically affect how the audience perceives its meaning. There's an intense mechanical control over pacing in visual novel writing that's a very powerful tool.
This is a great point. In fact, it's such a great point that I felt bad for having forgotten to mention it when I wrote the original post, so I actually just went back and added a new section to the post (under a new heading, "breaking ideas apart").
Parataxis wrote:I guess overall I found the piece focused on the difficulties and not on the opportunities of the format, and perhaps that is what you intended. But as a writer who as gone from prose to VN writing I found the discussion prescriptive. You set up problems with the text box to solve them by introducing the cool presentation of the project you are working on (Which *is* cool don't get me wrong!) and it's an effective piece if the point is to get people interested in the unusual project.
I didn't mean for the post to come across as pessimistic regarding VNs as a format (in fact I quite like VNs and I'm continuing to work on several "traditional" VN projects during and after Necrobarista), but maybe that's just because my brain is naturally wired to see limitations and constraints as opportunities. (A writing prompt may be more "constraining" than a blank sheet of paper, and yet many people get "writers block" looking at a blank page and find themselves able to write better when positively constrained by a writing prompt.) For example, the idea that "each line is more independent" is both a limitation (in the sense that I have to take a bit more care to make sure that the lines all fit together into a cohesive whole), but it's also an opportunity in the sense that the reader gets to spend more time "basking" in each idea than they might if their eyes were scanning down a page.

As for "the point:" Like a lot of "essays," I actually didn't start writing this piece with a particular ending in mind. In fact, I originally started composing it as a forum post (in response to this post on another message board), and at a certain I decided to expand it out into a blog post and realized that it would be a great chance to talk about a game I'm working on. I didn't set out to write a propaganda piece promoting my game, and in fact the mention comes toward the end mostly as an incidental (almost parenthetical) remark. That said, I'm not one to turn down a chance for self-promotion when I see it, so even if I started writing it without self-interest in mind, my motivations for sharing the post and trying to circulate it more widely are a bit selfish. :)

(Incidentally, a lot of the ideas that go into games I work on are things that I sort of "stumble upon" in the same fashion; it's very rare for me to sit down and ponder the question, "What are some ideas that I should put into this game I'm working on?" and much more frequent for me to go about my day, turning various ideas over in my head as I am wont to do in moments of boredom, and then occasionally realizing, "Hey, this idea actually fits really nicely into this game I'm working on." In fact, this is so effective that even when I do try to intentionally "brainstorm" ideas, my brainstorming technique mostly consists of deliberately trying to create those "moments of boredom" that good ideas tend to spontaneously leap out of. When I need ideas, I don't go to the computer; I put in my earbuds and go for a walk.)
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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#5 Post by Mammon »

Kuiper wrote:"It could be better" is the basis of our craft. Sometimes, it means tuning something up from "good" to "slightly more good." There are sometimes when I write a paragraph, and realize that I used the word "brown" in two consecutive sentences. Objectively, there should be nothing wrong with that. But I think to myself, "You know, I think this paragraph would work better if I didn't use the word brown twice in such close succession." So I find a different way to describe the thing I'm writing about, and it seems largely inconsequential, but the finished product comes out with a slightly better aesthetic. Sometimes, you write a sentence describing the texture of a chair, and when you replace the word "wood" with "oak," it just comes out better.
I know exactly what you're talking about, that's something I myself do as well. A more clear and obvious example might be 'Never use But to start a sentence twice in a row.' or 'Never use and twice in a sentence.' because those are much more jarring and unprofessional, but I quite often catch myself replacing regular words with synonyms because of that aesthetic value regardless of whether it's absolutely neccesary.
Kuiper wrote:
Mammon wrote:The 'wrong' example you gave doesn't seem wrong to me, even though speaker one didn't expect an answer there's no confusion from speaker 2 answering to confirm it.
So, I might be responding to your word choice here rather than the actual sentiment behind it, but the example I provided wasn't intended to be "wrong" in the strict sense. When it comes to writing, very few things are strictly wrong. We have rules of grammar and spelling, but apart from that, most judgments that we make about writing are subjective. Even negative statements like "this story is confusing" or "these characters are inconsistent" don't claim that anything is objectively wrong with a piece, just that it could be better.
I was more talking about your use of the example in your blog. If I don't see something absolutely wrong with it, why would others? An example's flaw should be much more obvious than any realistic occurance of the problem. Plus the first revision is longer without absolute necessity, thus ironically making you write in the 'verbose writing style' that you mention later. I guess that's more feedback on your blog than the writing, though.
Kuiper wrote:It's not, "Let's take things that are bad and make them good." But if there are two ways you could present a line, and one is slightly better than the other, why not go with the version that is slightly better in your own subjective measure?
To a certain degree, there are quite a few people who never finish a story because they keep rewriting the beginning and never reaching their own ideals. I agree with you to make things better if you can, but quite often that can lead to rewrites that lead to rewrites making things more convoluted, leading to rewrites to scrap the unnecessary parts, that lead to a rewrite to add upon the now lacking parts, etc.
My point is that writing is a lot like alcohol: Drink Rewrite, but drink rewrite responsible. :lol:
Kuiper wrote:Your post states that "there's nothing wrong with the line as you originally wrote it." That's totally correct, and I don't think that we have any disagreement there. My question to you is this: do you think that the "revised" versions of those lines are more effective than the original lines, or do you think they are worse? If you think that I made the line worse by revising it, then maybe we do disagree, but to me it feels like your point is that "revision isn't necessary..." which I would agree with, in the same sense that polish is not necessary. But just because this kind of fine-tuning isn't strictly necessary doesn't mean it's something to be avoided.
I do disagree, the revisions are slightly worse than the original. The added dialogue doesn't add to the character dynamic, so it's 'Less is more, more is a bore.'

I believe (in very broad guidelines) that narration and plot-dialogue should be as short and to the point as possible (especially action scene narration, which should paint a clear picture of the scene and what's happening without using a word more than neccesary) while character dynamics like dialogue shouldn't skip on the length and feel no pressure to add more unnecessary fluff if they feel like it adds something to the character(s) or creates a more natural flow of conversation.
Of course, those are very broad guidelines, because there's rarely a scene that's just the one without the other. Even conversations by extremely formal/to the point personalities like an artificial intelligence or military personell will contain 'character development fluff' when they're discussing plot points. And even narration is not always completely to the point because it tends to be from the MC's perspective. So take those guidelines with a grain of salt.
Kuiper wrote:
Mammon wrote:-I don't quite understand your conclusion to 'Concessions to form...', you explain what the problem is in regular prose but don't quite made your opinion of how this applies to VN, at least to me.
My point is that the "dialog tag issue" is unique to traditional prose (as in, it does not apply to other forms of writing, like screenplays and visual novels), and much in the same way that traditional prose has issues and limitations related to its form, so too does visual novel writing. It was a comparison to show how the two are analogous, "similar" in the sense that "they both have issues that are unique to them," not "similar" in the sense that "they both have the same issues." You're correct in identifying that the dialog tag issue doesn't apply to VNs, and that was exactly my point.
True, but considering that this is a blog explaining the advantages of VN's, you might want to give some examples of that rather than saying 'This is an issue that prose has. Visual novels have similar issues, but I won't tell what they are :lol: .' Also, even if you said your opinion during the larger explanation, always rephrase it in the conclusion or the beginning so the audience can't consider another part of the topic to be the more relevant part according to their preferences. (which subconsciously will make them read and understand things you didn't intend.)
Kuiper wrote:(Incidentally, a lot of the ideas that go into games I work on are things that I sort of "stumble upon" in the same fashion; it's very rare for me to sit down and ponder the question, "What are some ideas that I should put into this game I'm working on?" and much more frequent for me to go about my day, turning various ideas over in my head as I am wont to do in moments of boredom, and then occasionally realizing, "Hey, this idea actually fits really nicely into this game I'm working on." In fact, this is so effective that even when I do try to intentionally "brainstorm" ideas, my brainstorming technique mostly consists of deliberately trying to create those "moments of boredom" that good ideas tend to spontaneously leap out of. When I need ideas, I don't go to the computer; I put in my earbuds and go for a walk.)
So relateable.
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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#6 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Good write-up. I learned Japanese VN writers got paid by the size of their script file - that makes a lot of sense to finally know that. I'm one of those people who was (is) perpetually frustrated by the purple-prose and "cloud gazing" in a lot of visual novels - especially Japanese ones. Any visual novel that starts by showing nothing but a sky with clouds I STRONGLY consider instantly quitting and uninstalling, because that's a reliable indicator that I'll be dealing with a story where the narrator or main character will constantly be stopping and going off on pointless tangents like a freshman philosophy major.

That has to be a trope right - the visual novels that literally start with a picture of a sky with clouds and the MC just blathering over the top of it?

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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#7 Post by Parataxis »

Kuiper wrote:
Parataxis wrote:I guess overall I found the piece focused on the difficulties and not on the opportunities of the format, and perhaps that is what you intended. But as a writer who as gone from prose to VN writing I found the discussion prescriptive. You set up problems with the text box to solve them by introducing the cool presentation of the project you are working on (Which *is* cool don't get me wrong!) and it's an effective piece if the point is to get people interested in the unusual project.
I didn't mean for the post to come across as pessimistic regarding VNs as a format (in fact I quite like VNs and I'm continuing to work on several "traditional" VN projects during and after Necrobarista), but maybe that's just because my brain is naturally wired to see limitations and constraints as opportunities. (A writing prompt may be more "constraining" than a blank sheet of paper, and yet many people get "writers block" looking at a blank page and find themselves able to write better when positively constrained by a writing prompt.) For example, the idea that "each line is more independent" is both a limitation (in the sense that I have to take a bit more care to make sure that the lines all fit together into a cohesive whole), but it's also an opportunity in the sense that the reader gets to spend more time "basking" in each idea than they might if their eyes were scanning down a page.

As for "the point:" Like a lot of "essays," I actually didn't start writing this piece with a particular ending in mind. In fact, I originally started composing it as a forum post (in response to this post on another message board), and at a certain I decided to expand it out into a blog post and realized that it would be a great chance to talk about a game I'm working on. I didn't set out to write a propaganda piece promoting my game, and in fact the mention comes toward the end mostly as an incidental (almost parenthetical) remark. That said, I'm not one to turn down a chance for self-promotion when I see it, so even if I started writing it without self-interest in mind, my motivations for sharing the post and trying to circulate it more widely are a bit selfish. :)

(Incidentally, a lot of the ideas that go into games I work on are things that I sort of "stumble upon" in the same fashion; it's very rare for me to sit down and ponder the question, "What are some ideas that I should put into this game I'm working on?" and much more frequent for me to go about my day, turning various ideas over in my head as I am wont to do in moments of boredom, and then occasionally realizing, "Hey, this idea actually fits really nicely into this game I'm working on." In fact, this is so effective that even when I do try to intentionally "brainstorm" ideas, my brainstorming technique mostly consists of deliberately trying to create those "moments of boredom" that good ideas tend to spontaneously leap out of. When I need ideas, I don't go to the computer; I put in my earbuds and go for a walk.)
I think you are taking as a criticism what was meant to be an observation, so let me say clearly: there is absolutely nothing wrong with highlighting unique aspects of your game on the game's development blog. I certainly wasn't accusing you of setting out to write a propaganda piece! I was merely stating that that was the overall effect of your piece, partially because you didn't actually go out of your way to discuss any of the benefits of the standard format (an area you have now fixed) and partially because of your piece ending on your own work, which places emphasis upon the points made there--as though this discussion is the culmination of what you've written before. That's just a quirk of the human brain really. It's a good essay. I am not sure the original draft would be the right essay for teaching/convincing a novelist to pick up VN writing if that was your intention. You might see constraints as opportunities, but it actually takes some lateral thinking to wrap your head around using many of them as tools, especially if you aren't used to the format. That was more the point of my comment.

As far as getting ideas, I think you're pretty normal on that front (or at least that's how I do it). I hardly ever know what the "point" is of something until I am quite far into it and I tend to edit as I go, strengthening points as I see their place in the emerging whole or moving them around/omitting them if they end up tangential. When doing game ideas it's more of a cloud in the sky mixed bag since I often just have a part of my brain running in the background on some aspect or other. Though I do sometimes do it more in the "ok if I had to describe my choice philosophy to another human being how would I do it?" way for specific challenges. But that's often more for more developed ideas.

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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#8 Post by bluebirdplays »

I liked the write-up Kuiper!

I do feel that there's a certain 'technique' when it comes to writing for a visual novel, or so I'm finding for my own project. When I'm writing stories, I always had a tendency of writing a lot of fluff and self-monologues. Because the visuals are now being presented, it's making me have to scrounge around to identify anything that my art or characters won't show, as well as having dialogue that is significant and important to each scene. Definitely quite a change from what I'm used to, that's for sure.

Text box size also originally threw me for a loop, but after seeing the ways that other VN-creators have managed their sentence and line structure, it's not nearly as intimidating.

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Re: How visual novel writing is different

#9 Post by YossarianIII »

This was interesting! I actually just saw a trailer for Necrobarista somewhere... I wanna say maybe Kill Screen. I think it's interesting how devs are experimenting with techniques like 3D modeling or rotoscoping (like One Night Stand) that make it economical to have dynamic, frequently changing sprites that still look good in screenshots.

I think the parts of that post about how the textbox affects the writing are spot on. Personally, the best choice I made for my upcoming project was committing early to a bigass font and a smallish textbox -- it forced me to write faster-paced dialogue. (Obviously, a low characters-per-textbox ratio isn't the right fit for every project, but even if you have a lot of space in the textbook to work with, it's helpful to see how text will look on the screen.)

For that reason, I've always thought of visual novel scripting as less similar to novel-writing or screenplay-writing, and more similar to writing a comic, where the textbox is just a larger version of word bubbles. (You could argue that comics have no equivalent to the full-screen text of NVL mode... to which I'd reply, "Have you read Alan Moore? That dude is all about dropping random pages of prose in the middle of comics.")

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