Writing someone else's story

[MoonByte]

This is mostly a discussion thought I had.

Since I actually study Games (as an artist), I had plenty of cases like this, but wondered about it in a wider spectrum such as here where strangers band together.
In my study course, there are designers, artists and programmers. And usually at the end of the semester, someone pitches an idea (story, concept or game type) and once the group has come together, it is mostly left to the designer to make a proper story with gameplay out of it with the artists and programmers mostly just adding a "Sorry, can't do that in this little time" or "Let's do X instead, thats cooler/easier".
But I was wondering, how people here feel about such a situation where roles are kinda open and especially where you haven't spend three years together (and HAVE to work together) such as in my study course.

If eg. someone would pitch a idea "Cyberpunk thriller about space pirates abducting the Queen of France" (just roll with this for now xD), BUT would look for a writer, would you feel comfortable doing that?
Of course, let's assume that the initial idea sounds awesome to you and the characters (if they exist already) interesting.
As in, taking someone else's idea (and possibly rough character designs) and then trying to make it your own, make it cohersive and roll with it?
I mean, I as an artist am mostly used to draw/paint stuff that others made and I have written plenty of stuff myself (both novels and games). It's just that especially with my private projects, I obviously notice the issue that I am first and foremost a ARTIST, maybe second a writer (and lastly a programmer that is still learning). And so I obviously occassionally think about maybe leaving the writing to someone else.
But not only is it an issue, if I would be happy in the end, leaving my idea and characters in someone else's hands, but also...
Is THAT PERSON happy with taking someone else's stuff?
Nobody here (usually) gets paid for doing it in contrast to designers working in a company who run with a idea pitched at them.

I don't know, I would just like to know what those that actually identify as writers/designers here think about that kinda thing...

[Mammon]

Personally I don't want to do it nor am I good at it, but I can see others having no issue with doing it.

I don't wanna:
-Because I've got plenty of ideas myself. I don't start a new project before the current one is finished and I don't start projects I'm not certain of can succeed. So, with three next projects solidly established in line and a dozen more that can come after that (along with the very real possibility of two more projects joining the waiting line for every finished project) I've got plenty of stories I want to make myself with creative freedom.
-Because I don't do commercial, period. That doesn't mean just commercial projects, but also me getting paid for it. Keep your internet money away from me, internet.
-Because there is always the doubt, the same one you have, that the story just isn't working as well as I'd anticipate and that working together with others who already have their ideas about a character or event will clash.
-Because I want to rewrite until I'm satisfied rewriting the story, which is without pressure if I do all that before/without recruiting others. Doesn't work if I'm joining a team.

I'm not good at it:
-Because I've tried it once before with the thought 'I don't have time/opportunity for the art, coding and communication, so by joining a team I only need to worry about writing and replying.'. It never really came past the discussion phase.
-Because once I've made a story, that's the story. I can change things, but there are also very specific things that I just can't and won't change but the reason for it isn't that clear from my outlines. Hence why things never worked.
-Because I really overthink stories, but suck at explaining the thought process behind it. The story concept designer might think that a chapter can easily be removed because I called it boring, but that's a complete no-go for me because of several formulas for pacing, character building, etc that I simply cannot explain short and proper.
-Because I suck at explaining things in general. Either you see the final product, or you'll be confused by what I want and intend to do.

These are not reasons why a writer might not like working with a pre-fab idea, it's why I'm not good with it. I'll make it my own way too quickly and will do so way too complicated, and once it is then that's the way it is. It's either that or me completely rewriting the entire outline (which I did twice in the one time I tried this) but don't expect importing any of the parts you liked from the previous version. Those no longer fit.

Other writers, I can see them being better at it. Aside from them probably making a normal protagonist whose not a prick, they probably don't overthink it to a degree that they can already envision scenes word by word, or make outlines with the segways and scene intros already in mind.

Plus, there are plenty of writers who don't have inspiration for a story of their own right now. Taking someone else's story might be good for them because they'll have a place to start and someone to ideabounce with. Not to mention, there are writers who've figured out the way to go: don't communicate too much, have the idea concept designer write out an outline with everything they want rather than coming up with it yourself and then getting feedback of what to change, and throw the complete chapters on the other's lap rather than an outline.

If you want to work with a writer, then I'd suggest you write out an outline of the story. You don't have to make this grammatically correct, paced in a way that's fun to read or anything like that, you just make a story to work out the story you have in your head. No matter how clear you think the idea is, it's probably a bit more chaotic than you think. Depending on how attached you are to a story, you'll want to give the writer this outline too. If you just want the general idea, then give them a few clipnotes. But make sure that every detail you want is already in your notes to them, don't bring it up later that 'Oh, uhm, I kinda also envisioned this scene there or that this character is a bit more like that.' after they write the story. It's a lot easier to make a story with more restrictions than to suddenly adapt a story with new ones. At least for me.

Cyberpunk thriller about space pirates abducting the Queen of France.

If you just give me this for example, I'll have very little to go on and can easily go a different direction than you. I bet you have an idea about the morality, but I don't know whether the pirates or the people having to rescue the queen are the good guys. Or is the queen herself the protagonist? And what genre, romance or action immediately make for two very different stories. Also, first or third person perspective? etc. etc.
I know you kept it vague because it's just an example, but that's good because the things you'll have to add are thus much easier to explain.

[Scribbles]

I write, and I've written for other people. I don't mind it, but it is harder than writing my own stuff with my own characters. Once I get in the flow of it though I do start to enjoy the other person's story.

As for hiring another writer I don't think I could do that. Writing is like the main thing I do, so at that point I would just be... I dunno... a project lead? I'd lose a lot of control > < It would be different if I was a better programmer, or an artist though because I was still pouring my own work into the project. I'd be happy just being the writer and letting someone else do all the other elements though.

If you're doing another big aspect though (like the art) I think it's good to commission writers, because I feel like it's a forgotten skill. People think it's easy (until they do it) because it seems like just typing words which everyone does all the time. but it's really hard!! lol You gotta have a purpose behind every word, and balance grammar so that it's understandable but maintains the flow of the sentence. You need to make sure it's easy to read while also hinting at all the little elements that you want your story to have. I could go on, but I won't b/c I'm rambling now > <

anyway that's just my opinion, this is an interesting topic to talk about though

[caterwaulings]

I am actually actively doing this right now. I was hired to work on a project that had had a writer come up with the concept but had left before a full, concrete synopsis could be written. There had been some character development but not really in a way that I felt had fully shown the potential of the characters (for example, I like to know what a character WANTS and what they NEED and I couldn't find that in what was already there). The team gave me major control over changing the story to make it work out to to be the best it could be.

I am a novelist, and this is the first VN I have worked on, but I am also a story consultant for other novelists, even best selling ones. So I am experienced at helping people take an idea and turn it into a book or series.

I am interested in taking on projects where there are things that have been worked out. HOWEVER... The biggest issue for me would be the TEAM. Especially when it would come to a commercial project, especially if I am going to be paid a % of royalties versus contracted work.

I think that game writers AND producers (and everyone, really) should read at least the second half of VIDEO GAME STORYTELLING. It goes into great detail about the pitfalls of game writing. There are numerous issues...

Some people believe that 'everyone can write' -- which isn't necessarily true. Great writing and storytelling can takes years of honing. The ability to create a unique voice that suits the game world and characters, as well as a narrative structure that seamlessly integrates the exposition is not something just anyone has at their disposal.

I love this quote from the book I mentioned: "Game project leaders would never consider bringing in, say, a novelist to hop on one of their computers and start designing actual game levels. However, many of these same managers seem to have no compunction about doing the reverse— asking a level designer to also write professional-quality fictional content."

When teams realize that this is true, they need to be prepared to treat the writer as someone as important as any other team member. Some games don't hire writers until they have their story done, and just want someone to write dialogue -- but that is extremely more problematic then some people realize. I am ending up changing much more of the project I was hired for than I originally planned, simply because the deeper I dug the more problems I found with the concept. I knew that we could produce a decent game with the story I was hired on, but the more I looked at it from every angle, the more I knew that making some structural changes would create a GREAT game... I think I would only join a team now that I knew I could trust to take my opinions into consideration if they had already been tied to their plot in a major way, and even then I would want to discuss the changes I would have in mind before I accepted the position. This is common in the writing world with novelists and editors, and I think it makes sense in a situation like this.

So, tl;dr:
- Yes, this is what I do besides making my own games (I have a small org now that I am going to build as both a writer and producer)
- I also would work with a group on developing their idea with the actual writer to help them find a strong story to write out.
- I would ABSOLUTELY want a way to have close communication with the entire team--Like a Discord channel--so that we can all be on the same page. I'd also want to use Gdocs and other Drive tools so that we can all keep updated on projects.
- I agree with Mammon... The quote you gave isn't really a story so much as a concept pitch. You'd have to go about it a little differently if you were commissioning a writer, in my opinion. I would want to know who the protagonist is and at least some ideas you would have for the motivation of the pirates (and what you think the queen would want--to get home, eventually want to stay, etc).
- I would require a contract that goes into detail about the royalties, or the contracted work, AND as a producer/team coming up with the idea/project/etc., I think that you would want to protect your intellectual property just in case.

[MoonByte]

Just to clarify, that example was literally a "Spend 5 seconds to think of an example"-thing xD
I know how to properly pitch a idea and I would probably use something in hiring that I could just as well put down in the Project or Idea Threads.
PLUS, I am not trying to scout out anyone right now, so this isn't even about anyone havin to report to me on whether they'd work with me specifically ^^
It actually only came to my mind because I have to prepare my final thesis (which includes making a game) and I am currently facing issues getting a designer on board since my story is set (since my whole thesis needs it as foundation), but my fellow students want loads of changes that just wouldn't do and so on.
So I am just in general curious on whether writers (here) would pick up someone else's story and depending on the answer: why.
Because the little bit of writer that is in me fully agrees with Mammon on all areas (I once was comissioned to make a comic for someone else as artist AND writer and the latter part just irked me after a few pages already since I couldn't agree with the story and characters).
But I know from people in the industry I met, from my fellow students and some cases here that is MIGHT work, apparently, and was just curious to know what it is that draws people in or pushes them off.
I mean, there are also artists that don't do comissions or even fanart, there are programmers that are lone wolfs and - at most - cooperate with artists, if any. But they seem to be rare while I usually see stories pitched by writers OR stories being pitched with a "Story & Art: Me", so I thought, this might be interesting to discuss.

Maybe also how interested artists/programmers could catch a writers interest to pick up their pitch.
As in: Is a mostly empty husk more interesting or a already quite well-developed world? Do they prefer this or that when considering picking up someone else's game?
Etc.

[caterwaulings]

My earlier comment had been all over the place, I apologize. But I would say in response to your specific questions at the end--it is totally up to each situation. I would weigh these things in my decision because they would have an affect in the husk/more concrete idea.

Concrete:
1. Has this person/group completed a VN before?
2. If so, who did the writing? What happened when the creative team had different visions?
3. I would not want to take on a job like this unless I had done a sample for this specific project so I could be sure they liked my style/we knew we were on the same page for the tone and character voice.

Husk:
1. How much creative freedom would I have? Who makes the calls when there are debates?
2. How much communication would I be able to have with the team?

In general I'd prefer a husk, but some of the stories I have seen on here looking for writers are really interesting and I'd be interested in exploring writing for them. So, as someone who does this, it is a complete case by case question. I hope I was more helpful this time.

[TheJerminator15]

I'm actually doing my first attempt at this currently. After finalling ging around to bump my recruitment thread I was asked to write a game, and decided that I would do so as I need the experience for when I work with other designers etc when I go to uni for Games in August.

I actually agree with Mammon, but I also find that given my intended career in games that I need to gain experience in working from a pre-determined design sheet.

As for my reasoning for deciding to choose this project, it was based off three factors. Did they have proof of concept or a prototype, to show they were dedicated to the project? How restrictive is the outline, does it interest me? And what do I gain from this? For the first one, there was a fully working demo for me to test, I played it, and liked the characters, story so far and the game overall. This answered my first question and part of the second. The third was easy for me, experience and anythng else I gain is a bonus. After discussing it further, it was also said that during meetings I did have the opportunity to discuss and change the development if I felt it to fit more.

I myself prefer writing from a husk, because, well, it's nowhere near as restrictive. That's about it. I feel as if my writing is stifled to some degree if I'm working to someone else's outline. I don't find it impossible, however. I also don't mind a fully developed world, but I prefer there to be a husk for the story. I don't feel stifled with this because I'm used to writing to pre-established world with plot husks from my fanfiction days.

[Mammon]

Just to clarify, that example was literally a "Spend 5 seconds to think of an example"-thing xD

I know, that's why I said it made a good example because it's so vague that anyone can understand why the things I mentioned should be added to the description. I'm well aware that it was not a real idea pitch

But anyway,

Is a mostly empty husk more interesting or a already quite well-developed world?

In general I'd prefer a husk, but some of the stories I have seen on here looking for writers are really interesting and I'd be interested in exploring writing for them.

I myself prefer writing from a husk, because, well, it's nowhere near as restrictive. That's about it. I feel as if my writing is stifled to some degree if I'm working to someone else's outline. I don't find it impossible, however. I also don't mind a fully developed world, but I prefer there to be a husk for the story.

The most important point I was trying to make wasn't that the concept designer (or whatever you call 'em) should write out as much as possible or even an outline, but that they should tell you, the writer, everything they want in there before you start writing rather than after. The failed project I had was a husk in terms of story and I had a lot of liberty, but there were a lot of restrictions coming up later about the personalities, customs etc. Things that neither I nor the other thought were even going to be issues, but they were.

So my opinion is that I rather have an outline than a husk if that means that all the other's requirements and preferences are met before I start writing the story. A husk would be better creativity-wise, but only if that works. I mean, no one is enthusiastic about working at Wallmart, but working at a smaller store that can't pay your salary every month is worse in practice, right?

It is very easy for someone to think things are clear and obvious only for others to not make this quick leap in logic, I know because I assume this quickly myself. The concept you're given will probably be lacking a few things that the others want in there but forgot to mention or thought was so obvious it went without saying. Before you start writing, try to get as much of this out of the others so you can write around those things rather than having to change your vision. I'd reckon it's easier.

The example I gave in my first post for example with 1st or 3th person perspective is much more literal than you think. I'm not even considering the 2nd person, but maybe they want it and it never occurred to them that I might not think similarly. And that's an easy one to rectify, now imagine hundreds of small details that they wanted differently.

Anyway, whether you're the concept artist or the writer, make sure that all the details that the non-writer wants in are mentioned before the writer begins with the outline. @caterwaulings you've got experience, do you perchance have like a list or some other way to make sure that you get all the required information from the others before you start writing? Or, if not, how do you make sure that you don't experience what I've described above? I mean, in the project I've failed in there wasn't even an issue of art vagueties (how many character sprites or CGs there could be f.e.) and such so I assume that things can get even worse and more confusing still.