Character Development Timing

Questions, skill improvement, and respectful critique involving game writing.
Message
Author
User avatar
Westeford
Regular
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:43 pm
Completed: 12 Hours to Die
Projects: Project Premonition
itch: westeford
Location: United States
Contact:

Character Development Timing

#1 Post by Westeford »

One thing I love the most about fiction is character development. Seeing a character grow from point A to point B whether its simple or complex. It's one of the reasons I love video games specifically RPGs. There's one thing I'm struggling with and that's the timing.

Basically my game is the standard visual novel. The MC goes to school and he meets four various love interests. But in addition to spending time and hanging out with them after school, each of the LI's have prominent roles in the main overarching plot. This is a very bare bones explanation of my story, but I don't want to talk about it too much.

My problem comes when I'm giving them depth and development. I know how I want them to grow, but the timing (especially in the beginning chapters) feels off. Since this is a visual novel with free time events like Persona or Dangan Ronpa, I would need to introduce a few of the LI's early so that there's a choice in who the player will talk to during the intermission periods between chapters.

So far, my story plays out like this.
Chapter 1, introduces the protagonist, his four classmates (It's a small class), and their base personalities. It also introduces the first plot point (The protagonist gets a power that slowly leads up to the main conflict.) he then uses this power to solve a mystery.
Chapter one and two also establish each of the protagonist's classmates' talents (a mechanic, programmer, doctor, and detective.)
Chapter 2, the player gets involved in another mystery, but during the peak of this chapter's conflict the first LI, her name is K, she has a "Big Damn Heroes" moment and fights off an armed intruder. Showcasing her marksmanship and her ability to predict where shots will come from. And the reason for it has something to do with Synesthesia (Or something).

So yeah, that's a bit of a big jump. What I want to do with my story is spend the first few chapters building up the "Team" while the protagonist struggles with the idea of asking for help. And at the midpoint, the protagonist accepts that he can't work alone, and he needs help. That way I can have the whole team work together for the second half. (Non-Visual Novel Example: Donkey Kong 64 comes to mind. The first three worlds eases the player into the game while unlocking the four other characters, then by the fourth world the whole family is together and the worlds get more complex to reflect this.)

I guess what I'm asking is this. How do you know if you're developing a character too much too early? And what kind of things do you do to fix this?
My goal is to make characters with hidden depths. Characters that are more than just their base personality and talents. Characters that grow during the course of the game. Though I think most writers have this goal in mind.
Anyway, I'd love to hear what you think, I hope I made some sense with my rambling. I always feel like I make no sense when typing these.

User avatar
Empish
Veteran
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:52 pm
Projects: Efemural Hearts, It Ends With Graduation
itch: empish
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#2 Post by Empish »

Disclaimer: I'm in no way an expert.

I'd say that the biggest symptom of doing too much development at once is stagnation, sometimes to the point of it being boring. The best way I've found to diagnose this is to have someone else read the section in question and give me their impressions.

The thing is, sometimes it's appropriate to have a lot of development and sometimes it isn't. I like to have my development, whether it is a reveal of something about them not yet known or an actual change in the character's thinking, to be in reaction to what's going on around them. That way it feels more realistic for it to be brought up. For example, in the VN I'm currently working on, the main character is still not over his ex, but that doesn't come up until someone else mentions her.

User avatar
Mammon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:09 pm
Completed: Pervert&Yandere, Stalker&Yandere
Projects: Roses Of The Thorn Prince
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#3 Post by Mammon »

I agree with Empish, putting too much character development at the beginning or just in the story in general (as a bunch of JVNs can do too often) will lead to a stagnant tale. Too little however and your characters will feel like two-dimensional tropes and the conflict an uninvolving mess. If I'd have to simplify it, I'd say that the following three things are important to keep in mind during the mindmapping of your story outline and size:

-Show, don't tell. This is a very important and high-yield tool, but it's also very difficult to pull off well. If you're not aware of the term, simply said it's the opposite of exposition. Instead of someone outright telling the audience something, the author will try to convey things through the story and the characters. This can mean they do something that shows their power or skill, as opposed to telling you what they are and what they can do.
But don't underestimate when I say it's difficult, just look at Hollywood and how often they don't do this (well). One big obstacle of this is the IQ difference amongst your audience. Harsh to put it that way, but it's true. Most movies and such go with a story delivery that can be understood by people with an IQ of >85, a.k.a. the lowest denominator should still be able to at least get the gist of what's going on. You too will have to determine just how complicated you make your Show don't tell, and how many people may not get it. The problem is, this may easily result in either too much exposition hammering your readers over the head or the story being too convoluted to keep track of.

The 'right' way to do this is to combine this with point 2 and add the Show don't tell into the character's personality, the lore into a world that entices the reader to learn more about it, and the powers into a comprehensible system or shape that allows the reader to understand what can and cannot be done.

Two examples against one another are Superman and Superman. Take Superman taking a bullet to the eye and the bullet bouncing off harmlessly, that's a good way.of showing that he's nigh indestructible without telling. Take the fight between him and Zod's men in Man of Steel, that's a poor way to tell it despite the greater amount of force hitting him. The difference lies in that the latter feels pointless and just action-sceny because it's all only for collateral damage without gain, the former is good because it shows you the same in under a minute using a man who didn't know it was pointless to shoot. Similarly in a lot of comics, telling that Superman is powerful and indestructible only for him to then be 'harmed' by enemies is bad storytelling, showing that he's powerful through his actions and their force is good storytelling.


-Make the development amusing. It might speak for itself, but don't add development scenes if they're boring and stale. One uninspired development with a lot of plot-relevant things in it is not preferred over ten scenes that are enjoyable slice of life events with only something plotrelevant every two or three scenes. And if the development is enjoyable, Show don't tell will become easier too. By adding more scenes with the character, the reader will get a better feeling of this character to the point where you can assume that they'll know the character's opinion of something without having to tell or show it beforehand.


-Not everything of a character should be plotrelevant. People might proclaim Chekhov's gun to be followed, but I wholeheartedly disagree especially in this area. A character's personality should never feel like their plot-relevant purpose and job is the only reason for their existence. If the jobs you described your classmates to have are their only defining traits with everything based around this purpose, they'll be stale regardless of your development of them. They might be enjoyable, sure, but that doesn't mean they'll be memorable or feel like people.

In your story for example, I can easily see your characters existing purely for their purpose. We've got a programmer who wasn't plot-relevant until now, but we all know that at one point there's going to be a computer to hack into or something and there's absolutely no way to continue without the info on that disk. Boring. We've got a programmer who wasn't plot-relevant until now, but it turns out that she's actually a he for complicated social reasons explained alongside their death and their purpose is actually fulfilled by an AI they made. Convoluted, but not boring. (I assume you know what I'm referring to, as you referenced the show.)
ImageImageImage

Want some CC sprites?

User avatar
LateWhiteRabbit
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:47 pm
Projects: The Space Between
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#4 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Mammon wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:21 am I agree with Empish, putting too much character development at the beginning or just in the story in general (as a bunch of JVNs can do too often) will lead to a stagnant tale. Too little however and your characters will feel like two-dimensional tropes and the conflict an uninvolving mess.
Mammon and Empish already covered all the major bases, but I wanted to elaborate on this point by Mammon.

Definitely don't infodump or front load all your character development at the beginning. My belief is that you should know as much about characters as is currently plot revelant at that point in the story, and as Mammon said, you should see their character traits come out in their actions as they go through the plot. As was pointed out, a lot of JVNs do this very poorly and take forever to launch their plots, because they are too concerned with showing every tiny detail of their characters' lives.

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is the problem I had with the visual novel Steins;Gate. The first hour or so is great, and sets up most of the major characters in an interesting way. It establishes the story's theme - time travel - and it established what the goal is going to be - using time travel to try and save a character that is murdered. Off to a great start! Then the game proceeds to stagnate and languish for HOURS, and then the writer (apparently) expects the reader to be shocked when it is revealed that the machine our (time travel enthusiast) protagonist has been fiddling with for the past 7 hours of reading is, in fact, a time machine and not a gel banana making microwave unconnected to the plot. :roll: I hear the plot "gets good" if only I'd stick with it for another 10 hours on top of the 10 hours I initially invested, but who has time for that? The writing could have been massively condensed and had a lot better pacing, as evidenced by the successful anime of the visual novel only being around 3.5 hours to tell the same story that the visual novel attempts in 30 hours.

There is an unhealthy obsession with 'word count' in the visual novel community that is entirely unhelpful in determining if a visual novel is good or not. Steins;Gate for example has about 620,000 words in it's script. That is longer than both War and Peace and the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy (even if you include theHobbit). The entirety of J.R.R. Tolkien's published works has a smaller word count than that one visual novel. And the visual novel has pictures to do heavy lifting!

Higher word count does not equal better quality - usually it is the opposite. Good writing is as much about cutting things out as adding them in.

User avatar
Ezmar
Regular
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 am
Projects: 11th Hour [Working Title]
Soundcloud: Ezmar
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#5 Post by Ezmar »

LateWhiteRabbit wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:54 pm
I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is the problem I had with the visual novel Steins;Gate. The first hour or so is great, and sets up most of the major characters in an interesting way. It establishes the story's theme - time travel - and it established what the goal is going to be - using time travel to try and save a character that is murdered. Off to a great start! Then the game proceeds to stagnate and languish for HOURS, and then the writer (apparently) expects the reader to be shocked when it is revealed that the machine our (time travel enthusiast) protagonist has been fiddling with for the past 7 hours of reading is, in fact, a time machine and not a gel banana making microwave unconnected to the plot. :roll: I hear the plot "gets good" if only I'd stick with it for another 10 hours on top of the 10 hours I initially invested, but who has time for that? The writing could have been massively condensed and had a lot better pacing, as evidenced by the successful anime of the visual novel only being around 3.5 hours to tell the same story that the visual novel attempts in 30 hours.
I'll bite, but not too hard. I didn't find a problem in the exposition in that story. I guess in hindsight, I wasn't surprised to find that people thought it was slow, but I didn't think it felt all that slow at all. It didn't feel like the writer was trying to shock the reader with the reveal, the dramatic moment was when the characters realized it. In the meantime, we all get to know the characters and how they're set up for the rest of the story. It also lends a sense of timescale to the whole thing. I think the biggest thing the beginning section of the game accomplishes is setting up character relationships, which is an important part of the game. Could it have been accomplished faster? Maybe. But the genre is rooted in heavily relationship-driven narrative, so that tradition leads to placing focus on that aspect. You get to know the relationships Okabe has with all the different characters more intimately than if they'd each just been given a one and done establishing scene.

The point is, it depends on the reader, too. It's hard to say that something is just "pointless fluff" or a "waste of time". Pacing is tricky, and something feeling "too long" doesn't necessarily mean that it has bad pacing. It depends on the patience of the audience, among other things. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a very patient person, having completed the entire game without a guide, an ordeal that took me a grand total of 80 hours.

To return to OP's point, I think that proper pacing of character development is of greater importance to the pacing of the overall narrative. Not that you don't want both to be done well, but here's what I'm getting at. If your character development is poorly paced, the characters seem less like people and more like characters. It takes the reader out of the story because they notice something off about the world. If the narrative is poorly paced, the reader is merely not engaged, which - while still undesirable - is somewhat of a lesser sin in my opinion. Or at least an easier issue to fix.

So if you have a plot point that requires certain character development to have taken place, try to find some way to insert scenes that accomplish that. Don't just pad it out with fluff, but find some excuse for the development to take place. When I'm writing, I have sort of a frame of "key points" in my mind of moments that define the story. I have a rough idea of what the characters' relationships to each other and the reader are, and as I write, I'm constantly on the lookout for opportunities to add character development if I'm coming up to a point where I need it to be in a certain place.

User avatar
Mammon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:09 pm
Completed: Pervert&Yandere, Stalker&Yandere
Projects: Roses Of The Thorn Prince
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#6 Post by Mammon »

Not to add to the derailing, but I agree with LateWhiteRabbit. When I first saw the protagonist proclaiming himself as a mad scientist I thought I was going to love him and this anime, so I went into this show hyped. I tried watching the anime of Steins Gate which is apparently supposed to get gut in ep8, but even eleven episodes in I was still bored and decided to just drop it.

To add upon the proper topic a bit more, this is a subjective opinion but I think that longer VNs might be considered popular more often on account of what could almost be called Stockholm Syndrom. Yes, it's also because longer stories can take up several days of your time as opposed to binging along with a few other VNs, and when it's longer it can have more great moments. But a lot of the good moments in VNs aren't because they're good rather than that there's finally something happening. Because you had to fight your way through a slump, the mediocre action scene feels like a reward and more fast paced, thus feeling like a great scene in a good story instead. If you were to read it on it's own it would be much less interesting, and that has nothing to do with skipping the character development most of the time.
ImageImageImage

Want some CC sprites?

User avatar
Ezmar
Regular
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 am
Projects: 11th Hour [Working Title]
Soundcloud: Ezmar
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#7 Post by Ezmar »

Mammon wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:01 pm Not to add to the derailing, but I agree with LateWhiteRabbit. When I first saw the protagonist proclaiming himself as a mad scientist I thought I was going to love him and this anime, so I went into this show hyped. I tried watching the anime of Steins Gate which is apparently supposed to get gut in ep8, but even eleven episodes in I was still bored and decided to just drop it.

To add upon the proper topic a bit more, this is a subjective opinion but I think that longer VNs might be considered popular more often on account of what could almost be called Stockholm Syndrom. Yes, it's also because longer stories can take up several days of your time as opposed to binging along with a few other VNs, and when it's longer it can have more great moments. But a lot of the good moments in VNs aren't because they're good rather than that there's finally something happening. Because you had to fight your way through a slump, the mediocre action scene feels like a reward and more fast paced, thus feeling like a good story instead. If you were to read it on it's own it would be much less interesting, and that has nothing to do with the character development most of the time.
I'm not sure I unilaterally agree. Steins;Gate's slowness is well-documented and not an uncommon feeling, but I think that has more to do with the audience. I never had the feeling that "this is the point where the story gets good", because I was engaged all the way through. However, to take another very long VN as an example, Fate/Stay Night never grabbed me. It felt like a slog. But this isn't because it's long. It has nothing to do with its length, I could point to a whole host of other things I took issue with, but its length is not one of them.

It's also entirely possible that I'm just a freak and I'm the only person length doesn't really matter to. I wouldn't say I like long stories because they're long, but if I like a long story, I like the length because it gives me more of what I like.

Another example (though this is going more to the topic about length in general) would be Muv-Luv and Muv-Luv Alternative. I like silly Slice of Life, so I was prepared to enjoy Extra and Unlimited. But I would agree that it was hovering around a solid 7/10 until Alternative, at which point I felt I had to give it a 10/10, much to my chagrin. Again, I still enjoyed the whole thing, but that's definitely something I can't not point out when talking about my experience. Maybe for people without my seemingly inhuman patience this is what would be enough to cause them to dislike the pacing.

My point is that I'd be careful saying anything unilaterally about what makes "bad" pacing. "Good" pacing is more easily defined, but "bad" is seemingly more a matter of taste. In my view, the quality of pacing isn't on a scale of "Fast to slow". Slow pacing isn't necessarily worse. If I were to try to be objective about it, I'd put it on a spectrum of "normal to bizarre". If the pacing of a story is slow, it's slow. In my opinion, this can be okay in some cases, like in Higurashi. But it can also be bad, as in Root Letter. What's the difference? I think that in Higurashi, the pacing is relatively slow, but there's always something moving forward. But in Root Letter, the pacing just feels strange, like it's slow for including pointless scenes where not much happens, but it also seems fast because it blazes through all these scenes at lightning speed sometimes. It doesn't feel like a story.

I'm rambling a bit, but I guess I'm trying to point out that "too slow" vs "too fast" isn't set in stone, and is largely up to the audience to decide. What is more important is that the pacing makes sense to the reader. Don't try to match your pacing to what will engage the reader. You're the writer, match the pacing to how you feel the story should go. If some think it's too fast or slow, that doesn't mean you were wrong. But I think you'll get better results by being true to yourself and your vision of the story than by trying to ensure that your pacing is "good". Kind of like, it's something that you should measure by your own standards first.

I dunno, I feel this is one of those issues where it's easy to start arguing over matters of taste.

User avatar
LateWhiteRabbit
Eileen-Class Veteran
Posts: 1867
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:47 pm
Projects: The Space Between
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#8 Post by LateWhiteRabbit »

Ezmar wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:24 pm I'm rambling a bit, but I guess I'm trying to point out that "too slow" vs "too fast" isn't set in stone, and is largely up to the audience to decide. What is more important is that the pacing makes sense to the reader. Don't try to match your pacing to what will engage the reader. You're the writer, match the pacing to how you feel the story should go. If some think it's too fast or slow, that doesn't mean you were wrong. But I think you'll get better results by being true to yourself and your vision of the story than by trying to ensure that your pacing is "good". Kind of like, it's something that you should measure by your own standards first.

I dunno, I feel this is one of those issues where it's easy to start arguing over matters of taste.
I'm sorry, but that is bad advice. "Pacing" is not subjective. The whole purpose of pacing IS to engage the reader, and engagement is vitally important! Because there are dozens, even hundreds of good visual novels out there, not to mention other forms of entertainment. You are competing against all that. From every country on the planet at this point in history.

Every successful writer from Mark Twain (Samuel Clemmens) onwards has advised authors to cut down their word count as much as possible and "trim the fat" and "kill your darlings". Even the best writers are better when they have an editor savagely chopping the manuscript down.

Thats not saying you need to restrain yourself on a first draft, but your second draft should be focused on pacing via rearranging and murdering as many of your words as possible.

And my problem with Steins;Gate is that it DID engage me in that first hour, it had me ready to go along for the ride, but then it squandered all that build-up and excitement. I didn't learn anything new or essential about the characters in 10 hours that I didn't already know by hour 3. The author just paused the plot to have the player "hang out" with the characters instead of advancing the plot. It's like if after Doc Brown introduced the Delorean to Marty in Back to the Future the movie spent another hour with Marty going to school in 1985 before any time travel happens, even though we as an audience know that time travel HAS to happen for the plot to advance.

I have very little gaming time any more between freelancing, working, and doing my own projects. A good week sees me having 10 hours of gaming time. I don't want that to be wasted. If you don't engage your reader, another writer or creator will. If you are just creating art to send out into the world without a care if it is ever read or enjoyed by anyone else, fine. But if you care about having an impact or making money, engagement is, once again, essential.

User avatar
Ezmar
Regular
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 am
Projects: 11th Hour [Working Title]
Soundcloud: Ezmar
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#9 Post by Ezmar »

What I mean is that talking about "pacing" covers a lot of different criticisms. "Bad pacing" doesn't just mean it's too slow. It could just mean it's boring. It's possible to have a long story with fine pacing. Not to say that it's good or fine for stories to be long, but that a story's length is not necessarily indicative of whether or not there are pacing issues.

And what I meant by "measure by your own standards first", I should place emphasis on first, since I kind of meant for a first draft. It's important to get your idea for the story onto the paper before it can really be reviewed by other people effectively. By that I mean conveying the full sense to the reader, so they can decide what's not necessary or engaging. if you're too conservative, you may rush something that ought to be expanded, and it's much easier to trim the fat than to bloat an overly concise scene. from the other angle, it's easier to suggest what to remove than to suggest something to add, since the reader won't really know what's missing. So I guess my advice was intended insofar as how to draft a story, rather than how to write a final product.

I hope that made sense. I'm kind of dispensing half-formed advice straight from the gut here, so I may not be coming across clearly myself.

User avatar
Mammon
Miko-Class Veteran
Posts: 712
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 3:09 pm
Completed: Pervert&Yandere, Stalker&Yandere
Projects: Roses Of The Thorn Prince
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#10 Post by Mammon »

Ezmar wrote:I'm not sure I unilaterally agree. Steins;Gate's slowness is well-documented and not an uncommon feeling, but I think that has more to do with the audience.
I'm not going to say your opinion is invalid, you're most certainly allowed to have it and I respect it. This part however, even if it's on account of unfortunate phrasing, I have to say is wrong. The writer should NEVER blame the audience not liking the story on the audience. You as the reader may indeed like the story and disagree with others when they don't like the story while you did. But any writer, regardless of how much they like their own work and how much effort they put into it, should never say themselves that the problem lies with the audience. And considering this is a topic on writers doing pacing, I want to get that misunderstanding out of the way immediately. Have your fans argue amongst one another, but never say as the writer that they just don't get it and that your work is good despite the feedback.
Ezmar wrote:Fate/Stay Night never grabbed me. It felt like a slog. But this isn't because it's long. It has nothing to do with its length, I could point to a whole host of other things I took issue with, but its length is not one of them.
I agree, I think I commented the same in another topic quite recently. A US series can feel better paced than an anime despite the former being an hour/ep while the latter has just 20min/ep. And the other way around an anime can explain things much better with just a third of the run time while the US show may still feel convoluted and vague with much more time to explain things.

However, that does mean that it's possible for a show to have a pacing that appeals to all the audience. Shows that don't have that, may expect that a large part won't like the length and pacing that others like you can love about it. Like LateWhiteRabbit said, pacing isn't subjective. The audience's opinion is, but pacing itself is not. You can make something long but every scene, every minute, fun and engaging on its own. or you could make something with a lot of sloggish scenes. With today's choice of stories, requiring an investment of time before it gets good is no longer viable for a lot of people, and rightfully so. The competition no longer allows for such a thing.

P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
ImageImageImage

Want some CC sprites?

User avatar
Ezmar
Regular
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:23 am
Projects: 11th Hour [Working Title]
Soundcloud: Ezmar
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#11 Post by Ezmar »

Mammon wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 am
I'm not going to say your opinion is invalid, you're most certainly allowed to have it and I respect it. This part however, even if it's on account of unfortunate phrasing, I have to say is wrong. The writer should NEVER blame the audience not liking the story on the audience.
I agree, which is why I only mentioned it in terms of my experience. I'm basically just trying to counterpoint the very common and valid advice of not being too long-winded, because as a writer, you may not need to cut something just because the story is long . For many writers, writing is a process of discovery, and details are discovered and added over the course of writing. Being too conscious of pacing in the initial drafting phase can be distracting and prevent you from developing your understanding of your own story.

As for the blaming part, my point wasn't really "if you don't like the story, it's your fault". Though I can see how it came across that way. I'm just used to talking with readers rather than writers, and there are plenty of people that call writing "bad" just because it wasn't to their taste. And of course when you bring the concept of trying to sell your writing into things, it changes the discussion a lot.
Mammon wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 am P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
Yeah, I never watched the show, I just read the VN. My problem wasn't with the slow pacing or lack of action, I just wasn't interested in any of the characters. I found the whole thing to be a series of events with plot devices in place of characters. The good guys don't succeed because they're superior, they succeed because they're the good guys. I liked the bad ends best, honestly, because it at least restored some form of logical order to things. :P

But yeah, discussions about what makes something "good" or "bad" are always tricky, because while you want to avoid writing something "bad", you also don't want to just "follow the rules" for good writing, you need to understand them. In terms of pacing, it's not just "taking a long time is bad, so therefore I must not do it". I just tend to really dislike "you should never" advice.

User avatar
TheJerminator15
Regular
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:37 pm
Completed: A Sedentary Fist
Projects: Manipulation, Switch Swap, Unnamed Project
itch: jamsandwich
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#12 Post by TheJerminator15 »

[quote/]
P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
[/quote]

Funnily enough, as a massive Fate/Nasu fan I actually agree with you. As much as I love the original VN, it's pacing is absolutely all over the place, and it doesn't translate well into an anime. I generally encourage people to simply watch Zero, because it works great as a standalone, self-contained story and works even better if you're a fan because you knew what tragedy was coming.

As for the original question, the others have basically covered a lot of the points. Show, don't tell, and pacing are the two paramount points I view when developing a character. having a character develop early can work well, assuming it's paced well and executed in a believable manner. But the best way to see if there are issues with your character development is to get beta readers to look over it. A lot of VNs tend to have a character have an issue that relates to their upcoming development foreshadowed a chapter or two beforehand, but because it's not been a consistent part of the story and is resolved quickly which leads to their development, it tends to feel quite unsatisfying and for lack of a better word forced.

If your game is about relationships, then focus on the relationships between characters, how each character interacts with another, and how those differences lend to subtle changes in their attitudes and personality depending on who they're talking to. If there's tension of some kind between two characters who are then left alone, the conversation may become stilted and awkward for example. But, a different kind of tension may occur between one of those characters and another, possibly sexual, so to hide it they attempt to act like their regular self but unintentionally exaggerate it very slightly. These changes may seem not so subtle at first, but you can then use them to highlight how characters change depending on the situation and the little changes that come to the forefront because of it. Their temper may be much shorter in a specific situation, or when it comes to one person, for example.
My Current Writing Project: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=37699
Manipulation Teaser Demo: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzJ4E ... zV6TWVaclk

User avatar
TheJerminator15
Regular
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:37 pm
Completed: A Sedentary Fist
Projects: Manipulation, Switch Swap, Unnamed Project
itch: jamsandwich
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#13 Post by TheJerminator15 »

Mammon wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 am
[quote/]
P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
Funnily enough, as a massive Fate/Nasu fan I actually agree with you. As much as I love the original VN, it's pacing is absolutely all over the place, and it doesn't translate well into an anime. I generally encourage people to simply watch Zero, because it works great as a standalone, self-contained story and works even better if you're a fan because you knew what tragedy was coming.

As for the original question, the others have basically covered a lot of the points. Show, don't tell, and pacing are the two paramount points I view when developing a character. having a character develop early can work well, assuming it's paced well and executed in a believable manner. But the best way to see if there are issues with your character development is to get beta readers to look over it. A lot of VNs tend to have a character have an issue that relates to their upcoming development foreshadowed a chapter or two beforehand, but because it's not been a consistent part of the story and is resolved quickly which leads to their development, it tends to feel quite unsatisfying and for lack of a better word forced.

If your game is about relationships, then focus on the relationships between characters, how each character interacts with another, and how those differences lend to subtle changes in their attitudes and personality depending on who they're talking to. If there's tension of some kind between two characters who are then left alone, the conversation may become stilted and awkward for example. But, a different kind of tension may occur between one of those characters and another, possibly sexual, so to hide it they attempt to act like their regular self but unintentionally exaggerate it very slightly. These changes may seem not so subtle at first, but you can then use them to highlight how characters change depending on the situation and the little changes that come to the forefront because of it. Their temper may be much shorter in a specific situation, or when it comes to one person, for example.
[/quote]
My Current Writing Project: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=37699
Manipulation Teaser Demo: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzJ4E ... zV6TWVaclk

User avatar
TheJerminator15
Regular
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:37 pm
Completed: A Sedentary Fist
Projects: Manipulation, Switch Swap, Unnamed Project
itch: jamsandwich
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#14 Post by TheJerminator15 »

TheJerminator15 wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:20 pm
Mammon wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 am P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
Funnily enough, as a massive Fate/Nasu fan I actually agree with you. As much as I love the original VN, it's pacing is absolutely all over the place, and it doesn't translate well into an anime. I generally encourage people to simply watch Zero, because it works great as a standalone, self-contained story and works even better if you're a fan because you knew what tragedy was coming.

As for the original question, the others have basically covered a lot of the points. Show, don't tell, and pacing are the two paramount points I view when developing a character. having a character develop early can work well, assuming it's paced well and executed in a believable manner. But the best way to see if there are issues with your character development is to get beta readers to look over it. A lot of VNs tend to have a character have an issue that relates to their upcoming development foreshadowed a chapter or two beforehand, but because it's not been a consistent part of the story and is resolved quickly which leads to their development, it tends to feel quite unsatisfying and for lack of a better word forced.

If your game is about relationships, then focus on the relationships between characters, how each character interacts with another, and how those differences lend to subtle changes in their attitudes and personality depending on who they're talking to. If there's tension of some kind between two characters who are then left alone, the conversation may become stilted and awkward for example. But, a different kind of tension may occur between one of those characters and another, possibly sexual, so to hide it they attempt to act like their regular self but unintentionally exaggerate it very slightly. These changes may seem not so subtle at first, but you can then use them to highlight how characters change depending on the situation and the little changes that come to the forefront because of it. Their temper may be much shorter in a specific situation, or when it comes to one person, for example.
[/quote]
My Current Writing Project: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=37699
Manipulation Teaser Demo: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzJ4E ... zV6TWVaclk

User avatar
TheJerminator15
Regular
Posts: 161
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:37 pm
Completed: A Sedentary Fist
Projects: Manipulation, Switch Swap, Unnamed Project
itch: jamsandwich
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Character Development Timing

#15 Post by TheJerminator15 »

Mammon wrote: Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 am P.S. A Fate fan will always disagree with this wholeheartedly, but I say you could watch Fate/Zero despite not having seen Fate/Stay Night. I too found Fate/Stay Night too boring, and liked the 'boring first episode' where Zero recaps everything you need to know about the show. You can watch that one on its own and be more entertained because it doesn't revolve around one MC and his slice of life story in the beginning.
Funnily enough, as a massive Fate/Nasu fan I actually agree with you. As much as I love the original VN, it's pacing is absolutely all over the place, and it doesn't translate well into an anime. I generally encourage people to simply watch Zero, because it works great as a standalone, self-contained story and works even better if you're a fan because you knew what tragedy was coming.

As for the original question, the others have basically covered a lot of the points. Show, don't tell, and pacing are the two paramount points I view when developing a character. having a character develop early can work well, assuming it's paced well and executed in a believable manner. But the best way to see if there are issues with your character development is to get beta readers to look over it. A lot of VNs tend to have a character have an issue that relates to their upcoming development foreshadowed a chapter or two beforehand, but because it's not been a consistent part of the story and is resolved quickly which leads to their development, it tends to feel quite unsatisfying and for lack of a better word forced.This is a really big issue in romance VNs and it bugs me to no end, especially because a lot of the time it's just a bad situation forced in to make the plot a bit more exciting and to give a reason for the heroine to fall for the protagonist.

If your game is about relationships, then focus on the relationships between characters, how each character interacts with another, and how those differences lend to subtle changes in their attitudes and personality depending on who they're talking to. If there's tension of some kind between two characters who are then left alone, the conversation may become stilted and awkward for example. But, a different kind of tension may occur between one of those characters and another, possibly sexual, so to hide it they attempt to act like their regular self but unintentionally exaggerate it very slightly. These changes may seem not so subtle at first, but you can then use them to highlight how characters change depending on the situation and the little changes that come to the forefront because of it. Their temper may be much shorter in a specific situation, or when it comes to one person, for example.
My Current Writing Project: viewtopic.php?f=47&t=37699
Manipulation Teaser Demo: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzJ4E ... zV6TWVaclk

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users