verysunshine wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:22 pm
I know several people who use they, some of whom look gender ambiguous and others who don't. Sometimes this results in gendering errors.
Zelan wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:38 pm
... even having less sympathetic characters purposely misgender the protagonist for the sake of historical accuracy would be problematic, as it doesn't take into account the way that a person using they/them might choose to present. (As a matter of fact, those using binary pronouns don't always conform to traditional gender roles either ...)
Indeed. Personally, I find that at a certain point, being a stickler for historical accuracy and/or detailed specifics has diminishing returns. Opting for an unembellished he/she/them in this case is a compromise: without a setting rendering it a non-issue, incorporating multiple, nuanced genders and forms of address requires direct notice in dialogue, and to do that both responsibly and with realism-- in a period setting, especially-- risks subsuming any other plot into that story. My goal in skimming the surface (and otherwise dodging the main character's gender altogether) is to avoid sticky dialogues, potential misgenderings, and assumptions based on appearance, and allow for the player to fill in the blanks with their own interpretation, hopefully without any overt conflicts with the established world. It's possibly fudging the line a little on realism, but still seems the tidiest way of keeping inclusivity and believeability in balance.
As a secondary aside: if the option of choosing pronouns is on offer, I'm
reeeaaally uncomfortable with the idea of even the least sympathetic of characters in the most realistic of settings misgendering the player character. It feels like a hard betrayal of trust to, as a creator, effectively say "Here, in this immersive space, you can actively alter the world settings by selecting to be known as X, and the game will respect your word"-- and then
still have characters in game overriding that selection. As with most things, I'm sure there's a right way to do it, but in my view it belongs in the same Use Caution pile as abuse, racism, ableism, intensive bullying, etc.: it's widespread, real-life behavior that is othering and undermines an individual's autonomy/humanity. I do believe there's a place to discuss heavy subjects in games and narrative media-- but that place isn't a dialogue meant to drive home the player made a non-standard choice, nor in a casual aside to give a mean and/or ignorant character flavor text. We already cherry-pick what aspects of reality to incorporate into our stories, and which to excise or replace with fantasy: why opt for a "realistic" narrative choice that could potentially be hurtful to the
player instead of just the character, damage immersion by suggesting the player's choices are irrelevant, and all for an effect that can often be conveyed in many other, less potentially harmful ways?
Loose example: I find that when I can choose to play as a female character in a story-based game, the flavor text that changes based on gender frequently includes an uptick in the sexual harassment faced by the player character, such as being given gendered insults, or subject to lascivious commentary by unlikable side characters (often with a dash of astonishment at finding the female player character is capable). It doesn't really serve to make me feel more connected to the character, or the story, so much as it gives me a moment to sigh, "Here, too?", particularly when my partner plays the same game as a male character and gets none of that-- or (worse) is invited by the game to participate in directing those same negative behaviors at female side characters. Sometimes, telling the same story the same way between genders undermines the narrative
less than a more true-to-life take does, in my opinion. It's the push-pull when it comes to the responsibilities of a storyteller, and the responsibilities of a historian. Ideally, there should be plenty of overlap in both directions (history grounds storytelling, storytelling brings history relatability and relevance); but ultimately storytellers and historians have different goals, and there
ought to be divergences, too.
This is my own personal Writer's Code, but it informs my current question and feels relevant to the discussion, since it's branched out, so I hope the digression is okay.
Katy133 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:06 pm
This is mainly because of what TV Tropes refers to as
the All-Concealing "I", a framing device where gender pronouns are rarely used for the narrator because they are the "eye" of the story.
This is exactly what I'm relying most heavily on, as well-- I didn't realize there was a name for it as a narrative device. (Your list of games is terrific for reference-- thank you for including it! I even remember playing Super Solvers in computer lab as a kid, too, because I am an Old).
Draziya wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:40 pm
... Fallen London is well known for its gender options ...
I've never heard of Fallen London before, and now I desperately want to look it up! The use of Titles and Forms of Address is ingenious, and it sounds like an excellent course-correction to expand when there was discomfort with the initial third option response. It sounds like a more fantastic setting with less direct character interaction than my present project, but it's a brilliant way to implement a story as light handed and inclusive both, which is exactly what interests me. Thank you so much for sharing!