Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

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ladyguitarist256
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Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#1 Post by ladyguitarist256 »

Hi everyone. My cast is primarily over 20 years of age and I'm wondering if there is any difference between writing for children and writing for adults as the target audience.

Another question I have pertains to content. There is romance and some scenes contain physical contact such as kissing, hugging, and other relatively tame (in my opinion) levels of intimacy. Is that still enough to age gate my visual novel? I'm targeting 17+ for mild suggestive themes, language, and use of alcohol. Those things are in a lot of other genres, but with the situation happening in Steam I do wonder. I'm planning to release on itch.io.

And I have to ask, because even as an adult I am very sheltered. What kind of stories are adults interested in? Which characters and themes do you generally like to read about?

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#2 Post by Ezmar »

I'm just some schmuck without much life experience myself, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

I'd recommend just finding things that resonate with your own life. Something you can use to make it real. You may think nobody will be interested in your unique perspective, but NOBODY wants to read something written by someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about. In my opinion, unless you're a very accomplished writer, you're better served by not worrying overmuch about what your "target" audience wants to see. Write from experience, and find something that's meaningful to you. Take devices from other things you've read and enjoyed and use them to tell YOUR story.

Again, I'm just a random guy with no writing credits under my belt, so take it as you will.

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#3 Post by Imperf3kt »

In my own personal opinion, suggestive themes are for teenagers.
When I was younger, I'd actively seek out media with even a hint of 'adult' content.
Now though, I find such themes boring and distasteful.

Personally (and this is just me, I'm not saying you should change anything) I'd much prefer to indulge in a deep, meaningful narrative, than something with a few 'cheap' provocative scenes.
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#4 Post by ladyguitarist256 »

@Ezmar

Those are good points. As you can probably tell from my username, I love music and I'm thinking about making it a major part of the story. And I do happen to know a lot about guitars. I can only hope my enthusiasm will show in the writing though. I'm doing a slice of life novel so some parts will likely be taken from little things I've seen or experienced...although I cannot speak to the level of interesting I'm going to achieve with that!

@Imperf3kt

Oh, I think many of us have gone though that phase. Myself included. You mention wanting to read a deep, meaningful narrative. In your opinion, what type of storytelling would fall under that category? I'd very much like to write something that leaves a long lasting impression on the reader.

Because I feel a need to explain...haha. The scenes I'm going to include are more oriented toward showing healthy aspects of a relationship rather than providing fanservice. I'm also a sucker for romcoms where something as simple as a kiss can make someone cry at how beautiful a bond between two people can be. :'D In other words, I want to show that a relationship can be physical and emotional without moving into the adult content area.

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#5 Post by gekiganwing »

ladyguitarist256 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 amMy cast is primarily over 20 years of age and I'm wondering if there is any difference between writing for children and writing for adults as the target audience.
Rule #1: don't talk down to the audience. In my opinion, a reader will want you (the author) to respect their intelligence.

Demographics can be surprisingly large or small. For example, a four quadrant movie is meant to appeal to four large demographic groups. Also, if you look at book marketing, you might be surprised to learn that middle grade and young adult fiction are distinct categories. (Your story might fit into a lesser-known category called new adult fiction.)
ladyguitarist256 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 amWhat kind of stories are adults interested in? Which characters and themes do you generally like to read about?
A couple things which I enjoy at almost age forty:
* A story which exists in the vague middle ground in between "mainstream" and "arthouse." In other words, the story doesn't rely on car chases, jump scares, love triangles, slapstick comedy, and so on. At the same time, the story is reasonably easy to understand, and offers some fun elements.
* The competence zone is not small. Characters can achieve things whether they're young, old, or somewhere in between.
* Characters overcome their personal problems and still remain flawed. In other words, they learn lessons but continue to be human.

I find it easy to be cynical and say something like "gore, violence, T&A, and a relentless grimdark tone sell well." There are times when a story benefits from horrifying combat scenes. There are times when a story needs depressing themes in order to make sense. I say this because I find it frustrating when it seems that dozens of recent comics and video games feature these elements... and nearly all of them become successful.
ladyguitarist256 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 amI love music and I'm thinking about making it a major part of the story. And I do happen to know a lot about guitars.
As Ezmar said, write something you already know and enjoy. Look for recent examples of fiction that address topics which your story will cover. This can help make sure your story doesn't seem like "yet another remake of A Star is Born" or "a gender-flipped version of School of Rock." :D

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#6 Post by Czero »

Ezmar wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:33 pm I'm just some schmuck without much life experience myself, so take this with a grain of salt, but...

I'd recommend just finding things that resonate with your own life. Something you can use to make it real. You may think nobody will be interested in your unique perspective, but NOBODY wants to read something written by someone who clearly has no idea what they're talking about. In my opinion, unless you're a very accomplished writer, you're better served by not worrying overmuch about what your "target" audience wants to see. Write from experience, and find something that's meaningful to you. Take devices from other things you've read and enjoyed and use them to tell YOUR story.

Again, I'm just a random guy with no writing credits under my belt, so take it as you will.
I agree with parts of this.
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#7 Post by Eartheaven »

I thought this topic was about "how to write something that's aimed at adults" but I guess I was wrong in the end.
Hi everyone. My cast is primarily over 20 years of age and I'm wondering if there is any difference between writing for children and writing for adults as the target audience.
I'm not going to repeat what was previously said, but in my opinion it's difficult to exactly pinpoint the exact demographic your work is for - and I'm not talking about the actual demographic that's going to enjoy it.
That aside, of course there is : and that is depiction. Depending on how you present a situation, topic or anything else, it will be treated differently depending on the audience. Be it simpler words, how explicit or graphic something is ... Thing is, even that doesn't really depend on the age of the audience, but more on how you want your visual novel to present itself, the vision you want people to have of it.
That's why, concerning the rating, you should think about it on how graphic and detailed it is. If you don't know, check other works : "what does it contain, and how did their creators rate it ?", basically. Though, based on how you described it, the rating would be for mid teens, I suppose.
Those things are in a lot of other genres, but with the situation happening in Steam I do wonder.
The problem with Steam and explicit content was solved the last time I checked, but to be safe it's best to check things out from time to time, yes.
And I have to ask, because even as an adult I am very sheltered. What kind of stories are adults interested in? Which characters and themes do you generally like to read about?
That ... is a difficult question - no, actually it's easy, but for you, it would be difficult. Everyone is different, no matter what their age is, so you probably would get a million of answers, and all of them would be unique. If you're asking that to know what's trendy lately for adults, or to know how to develop a few characters - I don't even know why that question is for, actually, so I'm just guessing the reasons ... Do you want to know something specific ? For example, "what do extroverts like ?".

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#8 Post by ladyguitarist256 »

Eartheaven wrote: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:12 pmI thought this topic was about "how to write something that's aimed at adults" but I guess I was wrong in the end.
That is what the topic is about. :)
Eartheaven wrote: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:12 pmThat aside, of course there is : and that is depiction. Depending on how you present a situation, topic or anything else, it will be treated differently depending on the audience. Be it simpler words, how explicit or graphic something is ...
I don't think the degree of explicit content is what makes something more for adults. What I meant was, what story elements and themes are common in adult fiction?

For example, I read a manga called Pulse and the story was essentially a medical drama with many elements adults in the workplace would be able to relate to. The conflicts were different from what you may find in a high school story. That's what I'd like to know.

Not limited to a sexual sense; I'm referring to something that adults can read and go, "Yeah, I've been through that before" or "I can relate to that situation". Personally, I've found stories that are more focused on things like working, long-term relationships, family, making enough to cover living expenses, are pursuing a career have the atmosphere I'd like to shoot for.

Ghost in the Shell is another example even though it's sci fi because it deals with themes like technology's impact on society, humanity, and morals.

I'm searching for common settings, themes, or story elements like those that adults can identify with. My story really isn't going to be that deep though, from what I can tell after looking at my manuscript. :lol:

I did bring up the rating because while I am writing for adults, I am also aiming for the ESRB definition of a M rating (17+) due to the content I mentioned.
Eartheaven wrote: Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:12 pm Everyone is different, no matter what their age is, so you probably would get a million of answers, and all of them would be unique.
What are the adults here are currently interested in reading? I know that everyone is different, which is why I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.
gekiganwing wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:13 pm
ladyguitarist256 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 amWhat kind of stories are adults interested in? Which characters and themes do you generally like to read about?
A couple things which I enjoy at almost age forty:
* A story which exists in the vague middle ground in between "mainstream" and "arthouse." In other words, the story doesn't rely on car chases, jump scares, love triangles, slapstick comedy, and so on. At the same time, the story is reasonably easy to understand, and offers some fun elements.
* The competence zone is not small. Characters can achieve things whether they're young, old, or somewhere in between.
* Characters overcome their personal problems and still remain flawed. In other words, they learn lessons but continue to be human.

...
I say this because I find it frustrating when it seems that dozens of recent comics and video games feature these elements... and nearly all of them become successful.
Ah, I see. I definitely want to keep the story light-hearted, while also adding in more mature elements. I'm a fan of character flaws that originate from some sort of backstory, because those are the ones that seem more deep and realistic. A lot of people are heavily affected by their past, which makes them think and feel the way they do in the present. It's great to see that kind of thing in a story.

Even the antagonist can have redeeming qualities if their actions are based on that line of thought. Something I'd like to do is not write a clear antagonist into the story. Rather, everyone is struggling with some aspect of their lives that they'd like to change, but have a hard time doing for one reason or another.

On your point regarding the games that are more successful...yeah. I mean, I will be honest again and say I enjoy different kinds of media; however, I want this visual novel to be a story-focused game for adults that may have suggestive themes in it, not as the focus of it.

I feel like the term "adult game" has became too associated with explicit content. Which, there is nothing wrong with such content, I just mean a game can be for adults and not focused on that. It's hard to say adult game without coming across that way though...because that is what the other genre is actually called.

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#9 Post by Imperf3kt »

I think 'adult game' has become synonymous with explicit content because thats what such media has been referred to as for the last several decades, whereas mature themes and mature content, have been called... well, mature.
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#10 Post by Eartheaven »

ladyguitarist256 wrote: Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:54 pmI don't think the degree of explicit content is what makes something more for adults. What I meant was, what story elements and themes are common in adult fiction?

For example, I read a manga called Pulse and the story was essentially a medical drama with many elements adults in the workplace would be able to relate to. The conflicts were different from what you may find in a high school story. That's what I'd like to know.

Not limited to a sexual sense; I'm referring to something that adults can read and go, "Yeah, I've been through that before" or "I can relate to that situation". Personally, I've found stories that are more focused on things like working, long-term relationships, family, making enough to cover living expenses, are pursuing a career have the atmosphere I'd like to shoot for.

Ghost in the Shell is another example even though it's sci fi because it deals with themes like technology's impact on society, humanity, and morals.

I'm searching for common settings, themes, or story elements like those that adults can identify with. My story really isn't going to be that deep though, from what I can tell after looking at my manuscript. :lol:
Sorry, I may have caused a misunderstanding here :lol: And I read Pulse as well, so I understand what you mean by that.
What I meant by "how explicit or graphic something is" isn't only about sexual things - though I did interpret it as being a major part in this topic since you asked about the rating. I meant to say it for about all sorts of themes in general. For example, depending on who someone is facing : if they were to talk about a sensitive subject like drugs or alcohol with a child (just an example, really.), they may try to be educational about it, warn them about their effects. While talking with an adult, the conversation may go deeper into details. (Not that children wouldn't go deeper into details, but while they're still learning, it would be difficult since they wouldn't be able to relate for some. One's experience is what counts, so even some adults can't fully understand the topic. I am part of them.)

If I were to develop what I meant, it'd be that, to make something that adults would relate to, many (if not all) dimensions of the different themes you will write about have to be considered. Pulse's main antagonist, for example, could be relatable for many adults by how corrupted she ended up being, even though her intentions were, at first and to her, good natured. Someone's justice is different from another's, and what makes her whole BG story complex is how nuanced things were, to end up badly.
In my opinion, what makes something adult is how complex the characters' feelings and situations can be, no matter what theme it is. As someone grows older, their responsibilities pile up, to eventually clash with one another - with time, it becomes more and more difficult to do good, which is why everyone tries their best. The thing is, in the end, everyone is human, which is why many characters in many stories are aware of doing something unappropriate, yet they can't help it - all of that, with regret or culpability. So even a small fairy tale that usually is geared towards children can be told for the adult audience.
What are the adults here are currently interested in reading? I know that everyone is different, which is why I'd like to hear everyone's opinion.
Oh well :lol:
I'm a young adult so I suppose it could work, but I love to read stories focusing on characters ; no matter what setting it can be - though I may have a preference for medieval stories. Nowadays we already have many stories resembling each other, but it's nice that, in depth, they aren't the same - small details, making everything different. It's pleasant.
If it comes to comedy, I find it nice to see running gags, subtle parodies and puns.

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#11 Post by karenbubblegum »

ladyguitarist256 wrote: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 am Hi everyone. My cast is primarily over 20 years of age and I'm wondering if there is any difference between writing for children and writing for adults as the target audience.

Another question I have pertains to content. There is romance and some scenes contain physical contact such as kissing, hugging, and other relatively tame (in my opinion) levels of intimacy. Is that still enough to age gate my visual novel? I'm targeting 17+ for mild suggestive themes, language, and use of alcohol. Those things are in a lot of other genres, but with the situation happening in Steam I do wonder. I'm planning to release on itch.io.

And I have to ask, because even as an adult I am very sheltered. What kind of stories are adults interested in? Which characters and themes do you generally like to read about?
You made me think of Junji Itou (check him out if you haven't yet). In my humble opinion, this is what adult topics look like. He creates horror manga (I don't mean you need to dive into manga, it's just for the sake of reference), and part of his works show traces of romance - sometimes pure, sometimes very twisted. No drugs and alcohol, hardly any intimacy ever.
If you ask me, "adult" is usually about the internal complexity of the plot, even if the basic storyline is primitive. It's about the twists that you can't grasp, unless you've lived through some stuff in your life. That's why the books that are really good can be read over and over in different ages - and show different meanings, depending on how mature the reader is.
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#12 Post by Mutive »

No two adults are the same, but I will say that as someone on in their late 30s, I've seen/read/played a lot. This makes many tropes that I loved as a kid kind of boring to me now. (I just really don't need another lost-orphan-who-turns-out-to-be-the-prince fantasy. I really don't. I've probably run into 2,000 or so such stories and it's old almost no matter what new spin someone puts on it.)

So often what differentiates "adult" vs. "teen" to me is less how explicit it is (a lot of stuff for teens is plenty explicit, esp. older teens) and more that it's less typical. (Since almost by default, a 40-something has seen more stuff than a 20-something.)

Themes, too, tend to be different for older characters. (Which as someone who's older I tend to like.) A teen is excited about love and romance and finding his/her place in the world and all that. Romance is different when you get older. Either you're settled down (and contemplating blowing up your life for someone/trying to rekindle romance with someone you've been with for a decade) or are looking for someone with different stakes. (At my age, a romance may literally be the LAST chance to have kids, if you want them. If you don't, you're in a position where you have to ask whether it makes sense to try to enmesh two often very-independent lives.) People have also *all* been hurt in some way. You've probably had former relationships. It's no longer so fresh and new. (Although it still *feels* like it.)

Normal life stuff is different, too. Finding your passion is still a thing, but often less so (at least career wise), as a lot *is* closed off to you. (In my late 30s, I'm not going to become a famous musician-actress-model-athlete and I know it! I may go back to school to pick up new skills, but often it doesn't make a lot of sense. Abandoning a well-paying job to become a social worker has a lot of legitimate challenges, even if I suddenly feel a passion for social work.)
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#13 Post by Semicolonkid »

A lot of good points here. I'm going to focus a little more on the technical side, since no one has talked about that much.

Vocabulary. Adults know a lot more words than kids do, and even if they see one they don't understand, they're better at figuring it out through context or looking it up. I think you can also be a lot wittier/more subtle with your writing, as adults are more likely to catch what you're doing and appreciate it. The overarching theme I think I'm seeing is that writing for adults presumes a higher level of intelligence from them. Assume that they'll catch plot holes, lazy tropes, unrealistic motivations, etc. You certainly don't need to be dark or explicit to write for adults. You're just allowed to be, if you want.

As for age-gating, well, that's trickier to answer, and I've wondered the same thing. Just because something's intelligently written and intended for adults doesn't mean it has to be exclusive to them, of course. But "explicit-ness" pretty much appears to be the determining factor when it comes to the highest restrictive ratings.

My project has a LOT of swearing, and I've largely settled on 16+ for now because of it. Knowing nothing whatsoever about your project other than what you've said, I would guess that 16+ would work for you too. If you're talking about drugs, alcohol, and sex, I think our society accepts that 15 to 16-year-olds are familiar with those things, even if they're considered "adult themes." If you're getting into heavier material, like semi-hardcore substance abuse or sexual assault, I could see bumping that up to 17+. Showing (or describing) either of those things explicitly would likely be 18+, especially the latter.
But I dunno, American society is actually a lot more lax than you might think when it comes to just consensual sex. "The Notebook" has a pretty intense sex scene and it's rated PG-13. It's a borderline rating, but still. 13. Since all you've described are fairly tame intimate acts, I'll bet you're safe on this front.

It's a tricky subject, to be sure. I understand wanting to play it safe, but just bare in mind that too high a rating might misrepresent your work, too.
I'm sure you'll make the right call. Good luck!

P.S.: I realize my post kind of assumes you're from America, but I think all of this applies to a number of western societies. European cultures actually seem to be even less conservative, at least with some of these topics.
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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#14 Post by arty »

Well, I'm 25 years old and consider myself an adult. Long reply incoming.

The themes that interest me don't have to be explicit. In fact I just roll my eyes at gratuitous amounts of naked bodies, angst, and edge. That's the kind of stuff I would have enjoyed as a teenager.

Lots of violence was never something I was interested in. Some violence can add stakes, but too much and I stop caring. Sexual themes - kind of. Nowadays I prefer my sexual content presented in a mature way; with realistic undertones. Give me a sober depiction. It doesn't even have to be full-frontal. Fade to black if you feel it suits the characters/situation. Otherwise, give me something that isn't just vaguely researched. Show me that you know what you're talking about, even if it's just second-hand knowledge. Show me the facts, even if they're not pretty. That applies to other topics, too.

Of course, I also like to see positivity and wholesomeness, but I know the world isn't always beautiful and I prefer it that way. There's escapist fiction, and it has its right to exist, but if you're aiming for that, then make it clear from the start. Make up your mind about this right away.

Another important thing: I like to think I'm too old for cheap drama and contrived conflict. I want to see adults that act like adults. Show me flaws and misunderstandings, but also show me growth and communication.

If it's a story set in our world, I want to see/read things I would expect to see in the world. I want to see the light-hearted side - sitting on my balcony of my 30 square meter flat, and smoking a cigarette, chuckling about a dumb joke a friend made the other day. I want to see the bleak side - coming home after three weeks in a nicer place and finding the same suffocating mess I left behind.

In my opinion, not everything has to be deep and meaningful. Where's the chair that's just a chair? The things that happen in my life don't always have a purpose, and growing up for me meant to accept that.

And last but not least: There's very touchy themes that I expect to be handled in a mature way in stories for adults. Again, I'm not talking about violence of any kind. I mean illness, be it physical or mental. I mean existential dread. Money. Family. The future.

But take all of this with a grain of salt. I'm not what I would call a "reliable narrator".

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Re: Writing visual novels that are geared toward adults

#15 Post by traineroflegend »

Using book lexicon would be a good place to start. Putting aside the sci-fi/fantasy genre, you have Middle Grade (MG), Young Adult (YA), and New Adult (NA). MG covers younger children, typically around middle school age. YA roughly covers everything from 14 to 19 years old, and covers themes like finding yourself and your place in the world. Less popular and well-known is NA, which covers common early adulthood struggles like leaving home for good, adjusting to work, things like that.

To write a VN that is geared towards adults, you can use your own experiences. The wrong approach would be to throw sexual themes and call it a day. The right approach would be to take inspiration from other books, tv shows, and the like. A science fiction story where the main characters are military cadets and must defend the base by themselves? That's a YA story. A science fiction story where the main characters have to fight a war while overcoming a stifling bureaucracy, potentially losing their job and their family's only source of income? That's more geared towards adults.

So any setting can be geared towards adults, but you can add certain elements to force yourself to write a story geared towards adults. If you write a story about the main character having to protect their family, for example, you'd be forced to write something that resonates a lot more with adults.

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