Game Direction

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Chanda
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Game Direction

#1 Post by Chanda »

So while working on one project, I do have an idea about another, but I wanted an opinion on it. Sort of like the trilogy for Zero Time Escape but instead it focuses on one person's point of view while the rest are like unlocked after stories that complete the main arc and fill in the blanks because first person stories can be unreliable as we all know as writers and readers.

I was wondering if this type of approach would interest anyone as a player. It would be an otome game with basically a very long prologue diverging into short main arcs then lots of side stories to complete what's missing. Does this sound like a good concept?

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Re: Game Direction

#2 Post by parttimestorier »

I think it could definitely work depending on how well you pace it. There are plenty of visual novels where you need to play one route first to unlock the others, and some that do similar things with changing perspective on the story as well, so it's not an unheard of concept. One kind of similar example off the top of my head is No Thank You - there are some mysteries you don't know about on your first playthrough, and once you've finished one route, the narration gets expanded to give more detail about what you learned, and you can play other routes with added detail about what's going on. I think that worked really well, so I'd be happy to read other things like it.

But I think one potential issue is that people don't always want to read things that feel like "extras." If your main story is a long one that feels emotionally complete even if not all the mysteries are solved, I can imagine someone reaching the end and seeing the notification that the other perspectives are unlocked and feeling like, "Oh, I thought I was done, now I have to read a bunch more extra stuff if I want to totally understand it? I was going to go read this other VN next instead." And the extra perspectives could end up feeling repetitive too if they cover too much of the same ground that the main route already did with only minor changes. I definitely think it could still be a cool concept though, and it all depends on how well you execute it. I'd just advise keeping those potential issues in mind.

I wonder if maybe unlocking short side stories from different perspectives as you go, encouraging people to read them in the middle of the main story instead of at the end, might be a slightly more effective way to do it depending on how it works out with your story.
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Re: Game Direction

#3 Post by Mutive »

I'm pretty much just going to echo parttimestorier. :)

First, everything can work and be awesome. Somewhere out there a woman decided that a pigeon dating sim was a good idea and it actually made for a pretty cool game. Go figure. :)

One warning I'll give about prologues is that, if they're not all that interesting in and of themselves, they lose the interest of the player. To me, unreliable narrator stories are pretty cool. But if it's not obvious that this is that going into it, I'll get "GAME OVER" and stop playing. (And honestly, I might not even get to "GAME OVER". I'd argue that most media has 5-15 minutes to catch the attention of the consumer. If it can't do that, it tends to be discarded.)

Repetition and side stories can also be challenging. If something feels too "same", I'm likely to move onto something that's less so. And side stories - almost by default - aren't as interesting as the main story. (So why play them? I only have so much time in the day.)

But execution matters. I think I played "Long Live the Queen" approximately a dozen times (despite it being repetitive) because the mechanics kept it fun (and I kept wondering how horribly my protagonist would die if I made a horrible decision). Side stories in Skyrim are what the game is built on (not whatever the main story is). So it *depends*.
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Re: Game Direction

#4 Post by Chanda »

parttimestorier wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:36 am I think it could definitely work depending on how well you pace it. There are plenty of visual novels where you need to play one route first to unlock the others, and some that do similar things with changing perspective on the story as well, so it's not an unheard of concept. One kind of similar example off the top of my head is No Thank You - there are some mysteries you don't know about on your first playthrough, and once you've finished one route, the narration gets expanded to give more detail about what you learned, and you can play other routes with added detail about what's going on. I think that worked really well, so I'd be happy to read other things like it.

But I think one potential issue is that people don't always want to read things that feel like "extras." If your main story is a long one that feels emotionally complete even if not all the mysteries are solved, I can imagine someone reaching the end and seeing the notification that the other perspectives are unlocked and feeling like, "Oh, I thought I was done, now I have to read a bunch more extra stuff if I want to totally understand it? I was going to go read this other VN next instead." And the extra perspectives could end up feeling repetitive too if they cover too much of the same ground that the main route already did with only minor changes. I definitely think it could still be a cool concept though, and it all depends on how well you execute it. I'd just advise keeping those potential issues in mind.

I wonder if maybe unlocking short side stories from different perspectives as you go, encouraging people to read them in the middle of the main story instead of at the end, might be a slightly more effective way to do it depending on how it works out with your story.
Mutive wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:54 am I'm pretty much just going to echo parttimestorier. :)

First, everything can work and be awesome. Somewhere out there a woman decided that a pigeon dating sim was a good idea and it actually made for a pretty cool game. Go figure. :)

One warning I'll give about prologues is that, if they're not all that interesting in and of themselves, they lose the interest of the player. To me, unreliable narrator stories are pretty cool. But if it's not obvious that this is that going into it, I'll get "GAME OVER" and stop playing. (And honestly, I might not even get to "GAME OVER". I'd argue that most media has 5-15 minutes to catch the attention of the consumer. If it can't do that, it tends to be discarded.)

Repetition and side stories can also be challenging. If something feels too "same", I'm likely to move onto something that's less so. And side stories - almost by default - aren't as interesting as the main story. (So why play them? I only have so much time in the day.)

But execution matters. I think I played "Long Live the Queen" approximately a dozen times (despite it being repetitive) because the mechanics kept it fun (and I kept wondering how horribly my protagonist would die if I made a horrible decision). Side stories in Skyrim are what the game is built on (not whatever the main story is). So it *depends*.
So do you think if I made it less visual novel focused and more I guess rpg style and interactive, it could draw people in? That way it's not completely static and in a way you're also looking at the side stories in turn sort of like octopath traveler in a sense? I'm just trying to think execution style how it could work...

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Re: Game Direction

#5 Post by parttimestorier »

Chanda wrote: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:17 pm So do you think if I made it less visual novel focused and more I guess rpg style and interactive, it could draw people in? That way it's not completely static and in a way you're also looking at the side stories in turn sort of like octopath traveler in a sense? I'm just trying to think execution style how it could work...
I can imagine something like an RPG working well, with the other perspectives being part of a "new game plus" type thing. People are likely more interested in repeating some parts again if there's gameplay they can try a different strategy or a harder difficulty level for. But also, if you're only at the brainstorming ideas stage right now, I would personally just start writing a draft of a story first and see how it turns out. Maybe a traditional VN will end up working fine for it too!
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Re: Game Direction

#6 Post by Mutive »

I could see an RPG working, or something where you're point building (similar to Long Live the Queen) or even a conventional VN.

But I'd also agree that (to me) writing it first makes sense. Maybe one format works really well (or doesn't work) once you have a base game. Maybe the whole concept falls flat and you go for something more linear. It's hard to tell without diving into it.
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Re: Game Direction

#7 Post by puppetbomb »

Chanda wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:23 pm [...]like the trilogy for Zero Time Escape but instead it focuses on one person's point of view while the rest are like unlocked after stories that complete the main arc and fill in the blanks[...]
This sentence sounds like the core concept of the project. If it is, zero in on this. If there is a certain gameplay mechanic that enhances the core concept, put it in. If you're putting in RPG elements in hopes that people will engage in the story, then you've nearly doubled/tripled your workload by trying to create a non-linear story AND all the spreadsheet work of balancing stats, creating a battle/item/equipment system, designing UI/UX for the screens required for all these features... It's not trivial, and in the end, it takes away time and energy you could be spending on making a compelling story.

If most of your project involves reviewing/replaying events depending on which character's route you play, it might be worth looking into introducing this concept as early as possible. Make the player expect the "game over" screen and give them some cues on how to jump back in to unfold more of the story.

As a rule, focus on the player's experience in the first five minutes. If the first five minutes can't keep people's attention, something isn't working and adding extra hours of gameplay won't save you from the people who've already quit.

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Re: Game Direction

#8 Post by Chanda »

parttimestorier wrote: Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:23 am if you're only at the brainstorming ideas stage right now, I would personally just start writing a draft of a story first and see how it turns out
so like I have the beginning, middle, ending just not written out on paper which is why i was thinking out the logistics of if the way to go would be traditional vn or rpg style and i wasn't entirely sure.

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Re: Game Direction

#9 Post by Chanda »

puppetbomb wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:34 pm This sentence sounds like the core concept of the project. If it is, zero in on this. If there is a certain gameplay mechanic that enhances the core concept, put it in. If you're putting in RPG elements in hopes that people will engage in the story, then you've nearly doubled/tripled your workload by trying to create a non-linear story AND all the spreadsheet work of balancing stats, creating a battle/item/equipment system, designing UI/UX for the screens required for all these features... It's not trivial, and in the end, it takes away time and energy you could be spending on making a compelling story.

If most of your project involves reviewing/replaying events depending on which character's route you play, it might be worth looking into introducing this concept as early as possible. Make the player expect the "game over" screen and give them some cues on how to jump back in to unfold more of the story.

As a rule, focus on the player's experience in the first five minutes. If the first five minutes can't keep people's attention, something isn't working and adding extra hours of gameplay won't save you from the people who've already quit.
now that i'm thinking about it, i was also thinking and idk if you've played genshin impact but if you have then the way the map is configured where you can click on the teleport paths where you can just click a sub route on the map as a change of pace maybe is the idea i've been having these days? given the game setting i have, it does have its own map and the sub stories are set in different parts of the map...do you think that might work? I'm not sure of this idea i'm kind of just spit balling because i see your point with the rpg balancing! I'm not very much into coding or stat building and I'm just one person as well

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Re: Game Direction

#10 Post by puppetbomb »

Chanda wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:08 am now that i'm thinking about it, i was also thinking and idk if you've played genshin impact but if you have then the way the map is configured where you can click on the teleport paths where you can just click a sub route on the map as a change of pace maybe is the idea i've been having these days? given the game setting i have, it does have its own map and the sub stories are set in different parts of the map...do you think that might work? [...]
It's hard to say to say what will or won't work. The only way to know if it does is to make a mock-up or prototype. If it works, polish it up, and if it doesn't, look to other games to see how they solved similar issues.

I'm a firm believer that there are no bad ideas. Only ideas that are put together with other ideas that can make them better or worse.

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