For my current project, I'm not doing the music myself but hire someone to do it for me. However, that means I need to make clear what kind of music I want and if I explain it wrong the musician will make a mistake because of me.
So I was wondering, what kind of information do you give musicians when you need a new piece and when do you tell them? For musicians; what kind of information have you noticed you need?
What and when to tell your musician
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Destiny
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
I once had hired a musician for an RPG Maker game.
It was pretty easy that time because the game was mostly a travel game, so I just showed screenshots of the places I want music for.
He then created a main theme and mixed parts of that main theme in the music for the different places (so the player would somewhat recognize the music).
With that said I of course ordered him pretty late when most mapping and skripting was already done.
But we got into a fight and the music was never finished.
I never hired someone after that but simply searched for fitting music.
Works fine thanks to Jamendo xD
It was pretty easy that time because the game was mostly a travel game, so I just showed screenshots of the places I want music for.
He then created a main theme and mixed parts of that main theme in the music for the different places (so the player would somewhat recognize the music).
With that said I of course ordered him pretty late when most mapping and skripting was already done.
But we got into a fight and the music was never finished.
I never hired someone after that but simply searched for fitting music.
Works fine thanks to Jamendo xD
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Anna
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
Well, I guess if your project is free Jamendo is a good option yesDestiny wrote:Works fine thanks to Jamendo xD
.At the moment I'm telling him what kind of mood the track should have, give some example tracks which have the same mood, and give him an example of a scene in which it would be used. There are still misunderstandings though, so I was just wondering if I could make it even more clear, maybe by presenting part of the script or a sketch of the scene?
I'm waiting until the script is done at the moment, just to make sure, but maybe someone has additional tips?
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
Moved this thread to a slightly more appropriate forum, so people can find it easier in the future. This is a great topic to discuss - I think we should keep it to talking about how to commission music, rather than dealing with already-made music.
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Destiny
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
Hm, well if the music has to be "handmade", I guess I would ask the musician what he thinks of needing to know.
Like "give me a demo of the scene my music will play in" or "describe the mood".
I have many musicians as friends and they are pretty creative and also helpfull, accepting if you want music to be slightly different.
But I think, screenshots or demos of the scene you want the music for is the best way.
If you want a special something, then just name it (like a dominant e-guitar or a musicbox-song).
Well, if you want a title or ending song with text sung... That could become harder, because the text SHOULD fit to the game ôo
So that person must either know EVERYTHING about the games main points OR have to played it themself. But the last thing could be a bother to the musician...
But I think, showing them the art and the text will make the music more easy because it isn't without reason that art, music and literature are considered as "The Arts", being kind of like sisters.
There is literature about music and art, art about music and literature and music about literature and art.
A musician can "hear" a picture and make a fitting theme to a single image (I've saw something like that once, it was amazing what a great spntanous song came out), so I would really trust in that.
If you are on a friendly basis, then he will surely accept if you had something different in mind. You just have to know what you want. The more exact you can be, the better it will become.
The only thing I absolutly would NEVER do is giving reference music.
The musician tends to make a song almost like that in a literal way. So if you give him the Titanic main theme, you will get a song with 70-90% of the Titanic main theme. Even tough you just wanted a song "like it" and not a song "identical to it".
I mean, showing an artist the picture of a black circle on a white ground and asking to do something simliar will result...in what?
Like "give me a demo of the scene my music will play in" or "describe the mood".
I have many musicians as friends and they are pretty creative and also helpfull, accepting if you want music to be slightly different.
But I think, screenshots or demos of the scene you want the music for is the best way.
If you want a special something, then just name it (like a dominant e-guitar or a musicbox-song).
Well, if you want a title or ending song with text sung... That could become harder, because the text SHOULD fit to the game ôo
So that person must either know EVERYTHING about the games main points OR have to played it themself. But the last thing could be a bother to the musician...
But I think, showing them the art and the text will make the music more easy because it isn't without reason that art, music and literature are considered as "The Arts", being kind of like sisters.
There is literature about music and art, art about music and literature and music about literature and art.
A musician can "hear" a picture and make a fitting theme to a single image (I've saw something like that once, it was amazing what a great spntanous song came out), so I would really trust in that.
If you are on a friendly basis, then he will surely accept if you had something different in mind. You just have to know what you want. The more exact you can be, the better it will become.
The only thing I absolutly would NEVER do is giving reference music.
The musician tends to make a song almost like that in a literal way. So if you give him the Titanic main theme, you will get a song with 70-90% of the Titanic main theme. Even tough you just wanted a song "like it" and not a song "identical to it".
I mean, showing an artist the picture of a black circle on a white ground and asking to do something simliar will result...in what?
Re: What and when to tell your musician
That's indeed a point not often discussed around here. I'll try to cover the differents aspects.
It's from my personal experience (and from some composers in the business I know), so take it for what it is.
About describing the mood you want to be made in music... well you have to understand that the view you have on your work may be influenced by the fact that you did it, you have no recoil on it. So it will depends on how much you're willing to accept a different point of view on your creation.
A good way to do the things can be to hear first what the composer think and then giving what you though about it, then see if you can make something from the two points of view.
Also, a scene is not just what it's on the front. For instance, a final battle between a father and his son could be illustrated by some battle/action music... but it'd be an only superficial cover.. a more tragic and/or determined music could be more appropriate to underline what's happening deeper.
Pictures and everything you can think about to describe the feel you want is welcome but be carefull if the picture or the something is even more subject to interpretation thant the initial thing, it's useless.
Also reference music can be really usefull if the composer isn't a beginner, unlike the post above says.
There are not really clear rules about how to work with a musician. It's a lot depending on the time (and/or money) you want to involve into it.
Then about "how to work with", first of all you have to make a difference between a "formal" work (hiring a composer, paying him and getting the things, then publish your project) and a "team" work where the composer is someone you know a bit more, or he's not just here as a job.
The two things can be mixed of course, and have each one advantages and disadvantages.
For a short/little work for instance, it's okay to just describe the general ambience you want (and possibly the kind of instrumentsà, and the tracks you want with their mood. Then reply to some additionals questions from the composer during his work (if he's conscientious), and eventually validate or not the tracks.
If it's a paid work, you should have defined before with him how many time he will remake song for free until it pleases you (understand, you can't ask a composer just to work for endless time before it's what you want).
For bigger and/or more serious projects, it needs a whole "theme", and a more complexe process. Since you give more importance to the thing, it's better for the musician to work when the thing is near completion, like that he'll be able to play/read your project for inspiration, it's the best way for him to know exactly what he will have to illustrate with his music.
Obviously it asks more work, but well, the result is worth it.
That's really depending on your way of doing things.. for instance some people will prefer to talk a lot with the composer, via instant messenger or IRL, for instance (mails aren't always the best to talk about feels and music in some cases), a lot of communication ensure a result fitting your project. But a lot composers just don't want to be that much mixed with the producer you see, thinking it's more "pro" to keep some distances (and also because it's harder to value the work and be sure to get paid for everything they did).
In reality the best soundtracks come from composers that have the PASSION and are not just here to throw their music and take the money... but that's possible most of the time when the project is serious enough and the producer not greedy
... well that's a difficult subject.
About remuneration of the work, that's something I maybe shouldn't try to explain since it's really depending on each project, each situation, each person. It can go from the free help of someone to a front paid high priced composer, via some "a bit experienced" composer searching way to improve himself.
Composers working for free ; they aren't necessarly bad, in the case your project is a freeware you can find motivated and/or experienced composers if your project is solid enough (it's, for instance a way for them to get more recognition and to add something good to their portfolio).
If it's a commercial project, avoid getting free music unless it's your friend or something like that.
On the opposite side, an usual fee for a normal professional composer in a "normal" movie is around 500$/minute of music. And that's not really a lot. With more recognition, it can go far highter. That kind of thing asks a lot of work, usually these composers have also taxes to pay because it's their real work, etc etc
After, you have a lot of people between these two extrems. It's really hard to say a price to pay.
But the calculation is simple, if the composer values his work at 14$/h for instance (that's not that much considering the prices of instruments etc. etc.), paying him 60$ one track will mean 4 hours of work for this track. And that would consider all the modifications he will have to do.
Unless he's starting in the job, want experience or he likes you a lot, paying a composer less than 25$/minute is really not fair and means some corners will have to be cut. It means also no real understanding of the whole project etc etc.
For a normal VN commercial project, it's not a rule but if you want a serious enough soundtrack, almost 35~40$/minute is normal.
Well, if the size of the OST is long enough, it's normal to lower a bit the price because after the general mood is set, the work becomes easier.
You should talk before about the budget you have for the soundtrack and what you want. For instance a "simple" OST with piano and xylophone (like True remembrance) will be easier to complete and ask less time.
It's always possible to find good starting composers who have no idea of how value their work, or just like to do a hobby without caring about money, and get good soundtrack for not a lot of money, but that's not really... good.
Ah, and that was only for straigh paiement of course, sometimes a share can be decided (like 30$/track + 10% of profit) but you'll not find a lot of people liking that since 10% of nothing is still nothing. But in team works when it's not as a job, using onl shares is common.
The goal was obviously not to make composers look like vultures on the money meat, like everybody they have things to pay, that works the same with people doing art.
And if it's for a freeware you'll have plenty of composers happy to work with you if you present your project good enough, even the most pro composer you could think of will want to compose for free, as a total hobby, because it's something "different".
My two cents.
So, in the end, yeah, working with a composer is not simple, but it can really be worth the effort, it's something as much important as the art if you want your project to be really something. And it gives soul to a story.
It's from my personal experience (and from some composers in the business I know), so take it for what it is.
About describing the mood you want to be made in music... well you have to understand that the view you have on your work may be influenced by the fact that you did it, you have no recoil on it. So it will depends on how much you're willing to accept a different point of view on your creation.
A good way to do the things can be to hear first what the composer think and then giving what you though about it, then see if you can make something from the two points of view.
Also, a scene is not just what it's on the front. For instance, a final battle between a father and his son could be illustrated by some battle/action music... but it'd be an only superficial cover.. a more tragic and/or determined music could be more appropriate to underline what's happening deeper.
Pictures and everything you can think about to describe the feel you want is welcome but be carefull if the picture or the something is even more subject to interpretation thant the initial thing, it's useless.
Also reference music can be really usefull if the composer isn't a beginner, unlike the post above says.
There are not really clear rules about how to work with a musician. It's a lot depending on the time (and/or money) you want to involve into it.
Then about "how to work with", first of all you have to make a difference between a "formal" work (hiring a composer, paying him and getting the things, then publish your project) and a "team" work where the composer is someone you know a bit more, or he's not just here as a job.
The two things can be mixed of course, and have each one advantages and disadvantages.
For a short/little work for instance, it's okay to just describe the general ambience you want (and possibly the kind of instrumentsà, and the tracks you want with their mood. Then reply to some additionals questions from the composer during his work (if he's conscientious), and eventually validate or not the tracks.
If it's a paid work, you should have defined before with him how many time he will remake song for free until it pleases you (understand, you can't ask a composer just to work for endless time before it's what you want).
For bigger and/or more serious projects, it needs a whole "theme", and a more complexe process. Since you give more importance to the thing, it's better for the musician to work when the thing is near completion, like that he'll be able to play/read your project for inspiration, it's the best way for him to know exactly what he will have to illustrate with his music.
Obviously it asks more work, but well, the result is worth it.
That's really depending on your way of doing things.. for instance some people will prefer to talk a lot with the composer, via instant messenger or IRL, for instance (mails aren't always the best to talk about feels and music in some cases), a lot of communication ensure a result fitting your project. But a lot composers just don't want to be that much mixed with the producer you see, thinking it's more "pro" to keep some distances (and also because it's harder to value the work and be sure to get paid for everything they did).
In reality the best soundtracks come from composers that have the PASSION and are not just here to throw their music and take the money... but that's possible most of the time when the project is serious enough and the producer not greedy
... well that's a difficult subject.
About remuneration of the work, that's something I maybe shouldn't try to explain since it's really depending on each project, each situation, each person. It can go from the free help of someone to a front paid high priced composer, via some "a bit experienced" composer searching way to improve himself.
Composers working for free ; they aren't necessarly bad, in the case your project is a freeware you can find motivated and/or experienced composers if your project is solid enough (it's, for instance a way for them to get more recognition and to add something good to their portfolio).
If it's a commercial project, avoid getting free music unless it's your friend or something like that.
On the opposite side, an usual fee for a normal professional composer in a "normal" movie is around 500$/minute of music. And that's not really a lot. With more recognition, it can go far highter. That kind of thing asks a lot of work, usually these composers have also taxes to pay because it's their real work, etc etc
After, you have a lot of people between these two extrems. It's really hard to say a price to pay.
But the calculation is simple, if the composer values his work at 14$/h for instance (that's not that much considering the prices of instruments etc. etc.), paying him 60$ one track will mean 4 hours of work for this track. And that would consider all the modifications he will have to do.
Unless he's starting in the job, want experience or he likes you a lot, paying a composer less than 25$/minute is really not fair and means some corners will have to be cut. It means also no real understanding of the whole project etc etc.
For a normal VN commercial project, it's not a rule but if you want a serious enough soundtrack, almost 35~40$/minute is normal.
Well, if the size of the OST is long enough, it's normal to lower a bit the price because after the general mood is set, the work becomes easier.
You should talk before about the budget you have for the soundtrack and what you want. For instance a "simple" OST with piano and xylophone (like True remembrance) will be easier to complete and ask less time.
It's always possible to find good starting composers who have no idea of how value their work, or just like to do a hobby without caring about money, and get good soundtrack for not a lot of money, but that's not really... good.
Ah, and that was only for straigh paiement of course, sometimes a share can be decided (like 30$/track + 10% of profit) but you'll not find a lot of people liking that since 10% of nothing is still nothing. But in team works when it's not as a job, using onl shares is common.
The goal was obviously not to make composers look like vultures on the money meat, like everybody they have things to pay, that works the same with people doing art.
And if it's for a freeware you'll have plenty of composers happy to work with you if you present your project good enough, even the most pro composer you could think of will want to compose for free, as a total hobby, because it's something "different".
My two cents.
So, in the end, yeah, working with a composer is not simple, but it can really be worth the effort, it's something as much important as the art if you want your project to be really something. And it gives soul to a story.
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yukipon
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
This would really help. Presenting parts of the script or a sketch of the scene would help get the gears rolling.Anna wrote:At the moment I'm telling him what kind of mood the track should have, give some example tracks which have the same mood, and give him an example of a scene in which it would be used. There are still misunderstandings though, so I was just wondering if I could make it even more clear, maybe by presenting part of the script or a sketch of the scene?
Also, I'm not really too fond of receiving reference tracks unless you give more than 3 which all have the same thing you're looking for. In that case, I'll probably be a little more tolerant of it, but I'm not sure how others would feel.
But more importantly, did you listen to your musician's body of work? What he has done in the past is a really good indicator of whether or not he'll be able to make what you're looking for. For example, asking for a Classical piece from someone who mostly does Electronica, or asking for an Orchestral arrangement of the Hallelujah Chorus from someone who has never done so in their whole life is asking for trouble.
I have never understood this, and I probably never will.Ziassan wrote:...But a lot composers just don't want to be that much mixed with the producer you see, thinking it's more "pro" to keep some distances (and also because it's harder to value the work and be sure to get paid for everything they did).
"How do you know my name? Damn, this can only mean one of two things: Either we have met, and you are telling the truth, and I just can't remember it, or you are a spy." ~Setou Kenji (Katawa Shoujo)
Status: Thinking. Planning. And playing Phantasy Star Online 2 JP.
Status: Thinking. Planning. And playing Phantasy Star Online 2 JP.
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Anna
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
A different point of view is fine, but it still needs to fit the setting or scene. For example, I can't have romantic confession-ish music in a scene where two friends are simply chatting to each other and reminiscing at most. Both are 'sweet and calm' music, but their implications are very different.Ziassan wrote:About describing the mood you want to be made in music... well you have to understand that the view you have on your work may be influenced by the fact that you did it, you have no recoil on it. So it will depends on how much you're willing to accept a different point of view on your creation.
Great, then I'll make sure to do that! And as for references, I gave him about 2 for each kind of music, but I think I'll just leave them out entirely in the future to make sure he has more freedom :).yukipon wrote: This would really help. Presenting parts of the script or a sketch of the scene would help get the gears rolling.
Also, I'm not really too fond of receiving reference tracks unless you give more than 3 which all have the same thing you're looking for. In that case, I'll probably be a little more tolerant of it, but I'm not sure how others would feel.
Yup, he's a friend and came to me, but I checked his work out first! I think he'll do fine and if he really has problems with some tracks I will ask another musician to do those for us.But more importantly, did you listen to your musician's body of work? What he has done in the past is a really good indicator of whether or not he'll be able to make what you're looking for. For example, asking for a Classical piece from someone who mostly does Electronica, or asking for an Orchestral arrangement of the Hallelujah Chorus from someone who has never done so in their whole life is asking for trouble.
Well, I know him in real life and talk to him on skype casually, so I think we're fine :)!Ziassan wrote:...But a lot composers just don't want to be that much mixed with the producer you see, thinking it's more "pro" to keep some distances (and also because it's harder to value the work and be sure to get paid for everything they did).
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jmclark
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
Thought I would chime in.
Personally, I like to work from visuals. Reference tracks get stuck in my head and actually slow me down -- so unless you've got something that you are just really excited about be careful about using them.
On the other hand, if you can name a TV/Film/Game that has a style that you are going for, that can be helpful. I had a game developer tell me that she wanted me to use a lot of "fun" sounds like FF Crystal Chronicles, and that really helped.
I think what a composer needs really depends on the composer. Some guys I know can work with next to nothing and I know other guys who basically need to play the entire game through... also the level of experience and training can make a difference. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't have a real compositional background to be able to weave together lietmotives like John Williams or Hans Zimmer can.
It also depends on the game itself. A game that is really based on level or location is much easier to score than a story/character-driven game. If I am writing music for places and events, then I can just write for the feel of the level or the place and I'm done... but characters need something a little more intricate.
In many cases the real deciding factor is your own level of musical understanding. The better a grip you have on the scope of musical possibility and how to communicate what you want the easier it is... when you say "threatening" music: do you mean something like Uematsu's "One Winged Angel" or Pendereki's "Threnody" (if you haven't heard the latter piece, you should look it up)?
This can also screw up a composer, if you do give a reference track -- you put a particular sound in your composer's ear that might muffle a creative idea they had that would have been better. Sometimes the best approach is to just show the scene to the composer and see what they come up with.
Personally, I like to work from visuals. Reference tracks get stuck in my head and actually slow me down -- so unless you've got something that you are just really excited about be careful about using them.
On the other hand, if you can name a TV/Film/Game that has a style that you are going for, that can be helpful. I had a game developer tell me that she wanted me to use a lot of "fun" sounds like FF Crystal Chronicles, and that really helped.
I think what a composer needs really depends on the composer. Some guys I know can work with next to nothing and I know other guys who basically need to play the entire game through... also the level of experience and training can make a difference. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't have a real compositional background to be able to weave together lietmotives like John Williams or Hans Zimmer can.
It also depends on the game itself. A game that is really based on level or location is much easier to score than a story/character-driven game. If I am writing music for places and events, then I can just write for the feel of the level or the place and I'm done... but characters need something a little more intricate.
In many cases the real deciding factor is your own level of musical understanding. The better a grip you have on the scope of musical possibility and how to communicate what you want the easier it is... when you say "threatening" music: do you mean something like Uematsu's "One Winged Angel" or Pendereki's "Threnody" (if you haven't heard the latter piece, you should look it up)?
This can also screw up a composer, if you do give a reference track -- you put a particular sound in your composer's ear that might muffle a creative idea they had that would have been better. Sometimes the best approach is to just show the scene to the composer and see what they come up with.
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Roganis
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Re: What and when to tell your musician
Nope, I simply can't agree with you. A simple soundtrack isn't an easy one. It is if you're not tacking your job seriously, but if you want to make some real OST with the mood, the spirit of the visual novel, you'll have to be even more careful about those "simple" tracks. Tracks with more instruments don't take more time, because those "new" instruments just go in the same direction as the "old" ones. The hardest part of music creation is the beginning -> When you got the track's musical line, you did more than 50% of the work.Ziassan wrote:For instance a "simple" OST with piano and xylophone (like True remembrance) will be easier to complete and ask less time.
True Remembrance's soundtrack is a masterpiece, while being really minimalist. The compositor (Amor Kana) worked a lot on it, even if it's only around 25 minutes long. She made a perfect mood, and I think the visual novel couldn't be as powerful without this OST.
Also, to make a short answer :
A good compositor can work with only a sligh explanation of the mood of the visual novel, and a set number of requested tracks. Things like examples (from other OSTs) or instruments requested can be a good thing too, but it's not an obligation.
Re: What and when to tell your musician
It is said at the start of my message that it's based on personal experience (and feedback from others composers) : working with less instruments and on simple/minimalist works indeed asks (me) less time (without damaging the quality / the seriousness of the work).
I do not pretend to speak for everyone ahah, just sketching how it works usually.
For a similar work on the melody, all the orchestration to do and masterizing a lot of instruments is a direct load of time to spend in addition. The "creative" part (melody, feel) etc. doesn't change, but parts like the technical one, does.
After, of course, it can work diffently for some people who don't work that way and spend the same time regardless to the complexity of the piece, why not.
I do not pretend to speak for everyone ahah, just sketching how it works usually.
For a similar work on the melody, all the orchestration to do and masterizing a lot of instruments is a direct load of time to spend in addition. The "creative" part (melody, feel) etc. doesn't change, but parts like the technical one, does.
After, of course, it can work diffently for some people who don't work that way and spend the same time regardless to the complexity of the piece, why not.
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