Drew's Improvement Process [Critique Very Welcome]

[Drew]

Start a wider landscape whilst I have a think about what I'm doing wrong with the previous...

Getting better is an annoyingly slow process (boo).

[sendo]

Hey, thought I'd drop by and give some pointers.

Muddy Values:
The problem here is that the colors and values you're using are so close to each other that there is not enough distinction between them. Be deliberate in choosing colors. Use cooler and darker values for shadows/outlines, and use lighter and more saturated values for highlights. Related to this is my next point.

Colors:
You're currently choosing monochromatic colors (the rocks on the right for instance). Try to do it this way: start with a local color (say gray-ish brown for a rock). Now, to choose the highlight color, grab the sky/light source color and dab it on the local color, you might need to tone it down so the local color still shows through (like 60% local color, 40% light source color). To pick the shadows, just use a darker-valued, maybe less saturated local color. That's it. This is not applicable all the time, but it's a good way to start choosing colors with consideration of the lighting of the scene.

Textures:
Try not to use texture brushes just yet. They are great when you know when and where to use them, but they look out of place otherwise. I suggest painting textures yourself, at least until you've learned how to create a decent looking texture and then you can use texture brushes. And also because you'll learn so much more by painting it yourself.

Flat Surfaces:
You don't need much complication for this. Just choose 2 colors, one for the highlight one for the shadow. Adding more will just complicate things.

Further Studies:
Look up Bounce Light and Ambient Light. They might be a little abstract right now (especially ambient light), but it's good to learn them sooner rather than later.

I've attached my paintover and some notes on the stuff I've talked about above. Open the file for full-view.

Getting better is an annoyingly slow process (boo).

Agreed. It took me three years to get where I am right now and I'm nowhere near my goals yet. It won't really get easier, because as soon as you think you've improved, there's another area you realize you suck at (design, color variation, composition and rendering for me). You just need to keep building knowledge and consistently apply it.

If I may give a tip, try to imitate your favorite artist (obviously don't post your studies of their work, do it for yourself). The problem for me when I was in a 'plateau' was that I was stuck on my own routine. When I tried another artist's workflow, it threw me out of my comfort zone. But it was a great learning experience because by the time I got comfortable with the new workflow, I've already learned so much. And also, it's easier to notice mistakes when you have something to compare against, versus trying to figure out everything by yourself when you're a beginner and know very little.

See if the artist has process videos as well, so you can see how exactly they go about creating their art (what brushes they use, why they use custom brushes if any, how they construct their fundamentals, unusual tricks, etc). You might pick up nuggets of knowledge from them that you would otherwise spend months, or even years, to figure out on your own!



... Well, that turned out way too long. Hope this helps. Keep practicing and good luck!

[Drew]

Hey, thought I'd drop by and give some pointers.

Cheers, thanks very - much. It's appreciated.

Muddy Values:
The problem here is that the colors and values you're using are so close to each other that there is not enough distinction between them. Be deliberate in choosing colors. Use cooler and darker values for shadows/outlines, and use lighter and more saturated values for highlights. Related to this is my next point.

I think I understand; I was trying to de-saturate and blend as the objects become removed from the POV, but looking at things on my drive to work this morning, light/colour doesn't really work like I though it did. I see it in references but I think I'm misunderstanding what is happening in these photos.

Colors:
You're currently choosing monochromatic colors (the rocks on the right for instance). Try to do it this way: start with a local color (say gray-ish brown for a rock). Now, to choose the highlight color, grab the sky/light source color and dab it on the local color, you might need to tone it down so the local color still shows through (like 60% local color, 40% light source color). To pick the shadows, just use a darker-valued, maybe less saturated local color. That's it. This is not applicable all the time, but it's a good way to start choosing colors with consideration of the lighting of the scene.

Cheers, I'll give that a go.

Textures:
Try not to use texture brushes just yet. They are great when you know when and where to use them, but they look out of place otherwise. I suggest painting textures yourself, at least until you've learned how to create a decent looking texture and then you can use texture brushes. And also because you'll learn so much more by painting it yourself.

Yes, I think I'm tempted to use them like a crutch to give 'better' effects/results too early - bad habit.

Flat Surfaces:
You don't need much complication for this. Just choose 2 colors, one for the highlight one for the shadow. Adding more will just complicate things.

I try this but it ends up looking so unnaturally flat, maybe it's a matter of letting the brush stroke show a bit more - mmm. Will have to practice that a bit.

Further Studies:
Look up Bounce Light and Ambient Light. They might be a little abstract right now (especially ambient light), but it's good to learn them sooner rather than later.

I think I understand them, but yes worth a refresher. I used to work as a 3D modeller so you'd have to consider that for scenes then, but I've not really practiced how that transfers over to traditional techniques.

I've attached my paintover and some notes on the stuff I've talked about above. Open the file for full-view.

Getting better is an annoyingly slow process (boo).

Agreed. It took me three years to get where I am right now and I'm nowhere near my goals yet. It won't really get easier, because as soon as you think you've improved, there's another area you realize you suck at (design, color variation, composition and rendering for me). You just need to keep building knowledge and consistently apply it.

Thanks for the paint-over, they really help I find. I'll have a look at that and see what I can improve based on that. I think I was trying to do a similar method as you've shown for the rocks on the left but I'm clearly not doing it right as they weren't working.

If I may give a tip, try to imitate your favorite artist (obviously don't post your studies of their work, do it for yourself). The problem for me when I was in a 'plateau' was that I was stuck on my own routine. When I tried another artist's workflow, it threw me out of my comfort zone. But it was a great learning experience because by the time I got comfortable with the new workflow, I've already learned so much. And also, it's easier to notice mistakes when you have something to compare against, versus trying to figure out everything by yourself when you're a beginner and know very little.

See if the artist has process videos as well, so you can see how exactly they go about creating their art (what brushes they use, why they use custom brushes if any, how they construct their fundamentals, unusual tricks, etc). You might pick up nuggets of knowledge from them that you would otherwise spend months, or even years, to figure out on your own!

Mmmm - that's an interesting idea. I've deliberately stayed away from looking at other artists work in that way in - with the aim of developing my own styles and not become fixed on copying their methods. But using it as a way to get off a plateau is an interesting idea - certainly that's why I move to a different piece if I find myself struggling, to break a cycle where I'm stuck not being able to test myself or try new things. Normally I only use photo-references.

I'll certainly try that from now on (actually I've just had three print arrive in the post today so I might try looking at them tonight).

I find videos a mixed bag, some are great - they really helped me with portrait stuff (most things I should be practising) but I've not found any really good ones for backgrounds or landscapes yet - a lot are concept art or speed painting pieces so the methodology seems slightly different, though still has some good tips.

... Well, that turned out way too long. Hope this helps. Keep practicing and good luck!

Well, thanks again. That's been an interesting read.

I'm impressed by the work in your deviantart gallery, was that three years of education of just practising by yourself?

[sendo]

I think I understand; I was trying to de-saturate and blend as the objects become removed from the POV, but looking at things on my drive to work this morning, light/colour doesn't really work like I though it did. I see it in references but I think I'm misunderstanding what is happening in these photos.

Desaturation and simplification of far away objects definitely isn't a wrong way to go about it (that's why you can depict a faraway mountain with a simple triangle shape). There is certainly a difference between real-world lighting and 'depictions' of lighting, found in art. I'm not sure if you're looking at real, photographed photo for reference or if it's someone's art, but chances are the lighting is affected by a lot of factors (like time of day, weather, or style if it's an artist's photo)

I think I understand them, but yes worth a refresher. I used to work as a 3D modeller so you'd have to consider that for scenes then, but I've not really practiced how that transfers over to traditional techniques.

Ah sorry! I just assumed you're starting out and haven't come across these stuff.

Mmmm - that's an interesting idea. I've deliberately stayed away from looking at other artists work in that way in - with the aim of developing my own styles and not become fixed on copying their methods. But using it as a way to get off a plateau is an interesting idea - certainly that's why I move to a different piece if I find myself struggling, to break a cycle where I'm stuck not being able to test myself or try new things. Normally I only use photo-references.

I'll certainly try that from now on (actually I've just had three print arrive in the post today so I might try looking at them tonight).

Ah! Using photo references is a-okay. Again I just completely blurted out what was in my mind. It's just one way of learning, something I personally do and it helped me so I didn't hesitate recommending it. But it could lead to becoming overly dependent on the other artist, and even picking up their mistakes and even their bad habits as well.

Imitating/copying someone should be done with the intention of studying what works in their art and applying it on your own. What was that quote: "Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal" and all that.

I find videos a mixed bag, some are great - they really helped me with portrait stuff (most things I should be practising) but I've not found any really good ones for backgrounds or landscapes yet - a lot are concept art or speed painting pieces so the methodology seems slightly different, though still has some good tips.

I agree. Concept art/speedpainting videos are especially prone to using shortcuts (like photobashing or heavy texture usage) that often do more trouble than help, especially for beginners (I know because I was also photobashing stuff before and I always get frustrated because it doesn't work). That's why I love artists like Yoshida Seiji (twitter, youtube channel) because he paints everything with usually 1 or two brushes, so you can see how he constructs an object with values color etc. Needless to say, he's my current inspiration and I can definitely recommend checking him out, even if anime style is not what you're going for, you might learn some stuff from him. (He's also an artist who goes straight into color, rather than grayscale -> color which I personally couldn't figure out myself, so that's a plus from me.)

I'm impressed by the work in your deviantart gallery, was that three years of education of just practising by yourself?

Thank you. Yes I am self-taught and never went to art school, but I wouldn't get this far without learning from a lot of artists (Yoshida Seiji, Feng Zhu, Sycra, Marc Brunet, Volen CK, Tyler Edlin, Daodao, and many many more artists who continually inspire me to create and improve my art.)

[Drew]

I think I understand; I was trying to de-saturate and blend as the objects become removed from the POV, but looking at things on my drive to work this morning, light/colour doesn't really work like I though it did. I see it in references but I think I'm misunderstanding what is happening in these photos.

Desaturation and simplification of far away objects definitely isn't a wrong way to go about it (that's why you can depict a faraway mountain with a simple triangle shape). There is certainly a difference between real-world lighting and 'depictions' of lighting, found in art. I'm not sure if you're looking at real, photographed photo for reference or if it's someone's art, but chances are the lighting is affected by a lot of factors (like time of day, weather, or style if it's an artist's photo)

I think I misjudged the distance that the fading comes in over. I've been looking at a lot more lines of trees etc since then so hopefully I'll get a better idea of how to apply it.

I think I understand them, but yes worth a refresher. I used to work as a 3D modeller so you'd have to consider that for scenes then, but I've not really practiced how that transfers over to traditional techniques.

Ah sorry! I just assumed you're starting out and haven't come across these stuff.

Ha ha - well definitely starting out skill-wise, but I've been drawing on and off for years. But at the same time I've forgotten most of what I learnt and haven't done much 3D stuff for years. I can model things okay for work but setting up lighting and stuff, that's fading to a distant memory.

Mmmm - that's an interesting idea. I've deliberately stayed away from looking at other artists work in that way in - with the aim of developing my own styles and not become fixed on copying their methods. But using it as a way to get off a plateau is an interesting idea - certainly that's why I move to a different piece if I find myself struggling, to break a cycle where I'm stuck not being able to test myself or try new things. Normally I only use photo-references.

I'll certainly try that from now on (actually I've just had three print arrive in the post today so I might try looking at them tonight).

Ah! Using photo references is a-okay. Again I just completely blurted out what was in my mind. It's just one way of learning, something I personally do and it helped me so I didn't hesitate recommending it. But it could lead to becoming overly dependent on the other artist, and even picking up their mistakes and even their bad habits as well.

Imitating/copying someone should be done with the intention of studying what works in their art and applying it on your own. What was that quote: "Good Artists Copy; Great Artists Steal" and all that.

Aye, no worries - I like the idea of using other artists styles to force oneself from their comfort zone. But yes, relying too much on one particular artist doesn't sound like a great idea.

I find videos a mixed bag, some are great - they really helped me with portrait stuff (most things I should be practising) but I've not found any really good ones for backgrounds or landscapes yet - a lot are concept art or speed painting pieces so the methodology seems slightly different, though still has some good tips.

I agree. Concept art/speedpainting videos are especially prone to using shortcuts (like photobashing or heavy texture usage) that often do more trouble than help, especially for beginners (I know because I was also photobashing stuff before and I always get frustrated because it doesn't work). That's why I love artists like Yoshida Seiji (twitter, youtube channel) because he paints everything with usually 1 or two brushes, so you can see how he constructs an object with values color etc. Needless to say, he's my current inspiration and I can definitely recommend checking him out, even if anime style is not what you're going for, you might learn some stuff from him. (He's also an artist who goes straight into color, rather than grayscale -> color which I personally couldn't figure out myself, so that's a plus from me.)

Cheers I'll check that out. I've tried to work in greyscale and then add colour never work for me either. I can do greyscale (relatively) fine but the methodology to add colour just doesn't click.

I'm impressed by the work in your deviantart gallery, was that three years of education of just practising by yourself?

Thank you. Yes I am self-taught and never went to art school, but I wouldn't get this far without learning from a lot of artists (Yoshida Seiji, Feng Zhu, Sycra, Marc Brunet, Volen CK, Tyler Edlin, Daodao, and many many more artists who continually inspire me to create and improve my art.)

No worries, definitely impressed so it's obviously working for you.

I went over your comments and made some notes before going back to the image, rather than comparing directly from your paint-over. In the process I've noticed the perspective on the building was all over the place, so fixing that too. The stone has changed but I'm not happy with it so I'll see what I can do there. I like the steps now, but that's about it :-/

[Drew]

Test pieces trying to get a better handle on stone walls:

I think I'm liking the results of test 3, but I'm not sure if it's better painted or whether just the smaller/rougher stones work more effectively. Maybe need to combine #2 & #3.

[Drew]

Still working on painting rocks - still not happy with them:

[Drew]

Current WIP & some tree practice:

I'm a lot happier with some elements but still struggling with others. Think practising them independently then trying them out in the scene is order.

Peace

[Drew]

Update
I've been working a lot my technical skills, perspective, colour theory, etc so hopefully remembering these will help me avoid some of the problems I'm having with some things up to now. I feel I'm having problems capturing depth and mood to a scene - as well as just general quality.

As a bit of a shakedown I went back to an old image and gave it a paintover, not sure whether it's an improvement?
ORIGINAL:

PAINTOVER:

[Drew]

Recent WIPs/updates and practice pieces.

VN background progress:

Been working through this one for a while, keep coming back to it when my skills improve or I decided to try different techniques.

VN background practice:

Background for a potential beach scene.

[King-sama]

Nice beach!

[Drew]

Nice beach!

Cheers - It's been several versions trying to get it this far!

[Drew]

Still alive.

Been working on various things. Some new stuff, some rehashing old WIPs. All work for Blackcross.

Title Art:

I'm not that familiar with the graphic design side of things but I think this came out okay.

Rework of old WIPs:

All paint-overs based on the original files, textures and various detail stuff added.

[Drew]

WIP of a background for "The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea" by Blackcross12 ([url]viewtopic.php?f=43&t=41998/url])

I've been working on a simpler style to produce clean backgrounds that suit a lot of different style of sprites. Basic 3D model produced in Rhino3D then drawn over to create more detailed line-art. Some basic texture overlays.

[Drew]

WIP of another of simpler background, main colour bases and shading are down but I think it needs some more detail work and shading to make it pop.

The Devil and The Deep Blue Sea, Alpha demo is available now:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=42402