[Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

For recruitment of team members to help create visual novels and story-based games, and for people who want to offer their services to create the same.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#16 Post by PyTom » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm

Ryuno wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:57 am
I can see no benefit whatsoever from limiting bumps filled with content in their appropriate zones. I personally only bump when I'm free for new gigs and that helps because as soon as a potential client sees me bumping, they can message me knowing that I am still alive and have used a computer in the past few moments. Being able to know an adequate freelancer is active is vital information for an developer, and this whole thing puts it behind them checking potentially several pages of others due to a two month wait period. It sounds preposterous for anyone with a job or other responsibilities to have to consciously wait two months to bump a thread, while having whatever quantity of content available.
I don't see the LSF as primarily a jobs board, as perhaps some other people do. I see the jobs boards as something we did to divert those posts from the content-filled areas of the forum. The LSF software is pretty inadequate as a jobs board, and so rewards people for posting daily content that isn't of interest to forum members. (I use 'inspires discussion' as a proxy for interest, since I don't have anything else.) I'd rather not make it such that every active creator has to go and tend to their thread like that every day - to me, it seems to be an unproductive activity that doesn't add anything to the forum.

I checked, and 2 months is on the first page for all the forums save the art one, where it's on the second page. Asking people to check two pages doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Note that editing your thread is fine, and if people want to go and change the title of their thread every day to read [Looking 2018-01-23], I'd be fine with that. I just don't think bumps are the right way to organize that forum, as I don't want people to be rewarded for being the person that can bump fastest.
It is also begging for more alt accounts to show up on the forum for the sole purpose of bumping such threads, to which the moderation team will have little control over unless you start vetting everybody coming in the forum.
I don't think it would come to this, and treating the LSF as a community rather than a jobs board should make such things even less acceptable. I'd hope that people would refuse to do business with people who use alt accounts like this.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#17 Post by Cindigo » Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:59 pm

PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
If nobody answers your game thread, and you don't participate anywhere else, then you aren't part of the community, are you?
That is a good point and I agree with that, but it has nothing to do with forcibly setting 2 month long intervals between posts. I think that monthly progress reports in WIP shouldn’t be considered a crime. Actively working on your game should be rewarded instead.
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
This isn't like a commercial website, where I have something to win to by growing the community for the sake of reporting metrics to my boss - this is an actual community here.
I can’t agree with this statement – if I would ever make a community, I would work towards making a friendly and meaningful one. That is a measurable metric. I think it’s not correct to state that there is nothing to win :) but that is off-topic path we shouldn’t go.
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
The point of this change is to get people to stop simply treating LSF solely as a jobs board.
I never said that I’m against that. I’m all for it, but how are progress reports and “anti job board iniciative” related. How is double posting in WIP (work in progress) a “job board” thing. I actually don’t know whom I’m protecting here, because I almost never look into WIP, I must admit it, but still. I must admit that it was wrong to jump on the off-topic wagon, which maybe made some confusion.
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
Sorry, but that's the problem here. I see them all the time.
Maybe there actually is such a problem. I haven’t been reading forums for about half a month and in “General discussion” there is 1 meaningful topic marked, in “creator discussions” there are about 10 and in “asset creation” I would say 60% could fit that description (there are less than about 30+ threads total there), but some are basically “not-a-poll polls” or with less than 5 answers. Bumping 2 and more months old threads isn’t something I would consider as correct so those are not counted. I don’t count misplaced or just-for-fun threads. In addition, there probably is big difference in our interpretation of "meaningful".
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
Citation needed.
Here you go:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=45624 04.09
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=45699 09.09
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=45727 11.09
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=45936 03.10
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=46679 18.11
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=47170 21.12

I haven’t seen WIP or completed for either. Google search for titles gives nothing. Am I missing something?
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
I don't think it would come to this.
Alts, “friends”, old clients. I’m sure some people will be smart enough to achieve that. Let’s not be naive. Hope doesn’t help with solving the problem of bumping threads. That’s why I suggested doing something with “PMed you”, “You seem like a great …”, “He was...” in 10 words posts. It’s impossible to give meaningful input in "less than 100" words.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#18 Post by Imperf3kt » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:09 pm

I think you mixed up the WIP subforum with the services offered subforum.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#19 Post by Cindigo » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:38 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:09 pm
I think you mixed up the WIP subforum with the services offered subforum.
Empish wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:53 pm
I almost want to request a similar rule for the Works In Progress subforum, because that often has the same problem.
PyTom wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:33 pm
That'll be coming down the pipe in a bit, I suspect.
I didn't :) Thanks for being considerate though.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#20 Post by Inksword » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:20 pm

Cindigo wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:59 pm
PyTom wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:01 pm
The point of this change is to get people to stop simply treating LSF solely as a jobs board.
I never said that I’m against that. I’m all for it, but how are progress reports and “anti job board iniciative” related. How is double posting in WIP (work in progress) a “job board” thing. I actually don’t know whom I’m protecting here, because I almost never look into WIP, I must admit it, but still. I must admit that it was wrong to jump on the off-topic wagon, which maybe made some confusion.
I think what Tom's referring to is the fact that many people use the WIP board not as a job board, but as a way to hype their game. Sometimes it's so they can eventually link their kickstarter and get the monetary support, sometimes it's just so they can get their game in front of as many eyes as possible to grow an audience in general. They post updates as much as possible to keep their thread at the top of the forum, and to get people who click on every new post every day(like me) to see their game over and over again, which gives them name recognition or may eventually lead to someone subscribing the 10th time they see it when they didn't the first time. Basically, it's a form of advertising to have a thread that's constantly bumped to the top of the major English-language VN forum. Tom doesn't want this forum becoming a job board or a place for people to plug their game without contributing to the discussion, using the community without putting anything back into it.

Now, I definitely don't think creators do this in a malicious or manipulative fashion most of the time. Often they're just excited to show progress on their game, and it's understandable that they want to share it and get feedback and comment as they work. On solo project especially where you're just working alone on a script or art, it's very rewarding to be able to say "hey I accomplished this and made progress" to someone. Many times update posts have valid updates, or there's a legitimate following for a game and the creator wants to keep in touch with their fan-base. I think there's definitely a balance to be struck between the cynical updaters and the creators/community interaction.

Since Tom hasn't come out with an actual rule for the WIP forum, we shouldn't start complaining about being unfairly stifled before even seeing what the rule is thought. :P

That said, I think the rule for the services offered forum is completely fair. If you need to update your examples, update the first post where people actually look first to see what kind of work you do, a post isn't necessary. Need to open or close your slots? Update the title and the first post. Since everyone's going to be on the same playing-field, no one's going to get unfairly bumped off the front page since everyone's held to the two-month time limit. People making alts to bump threads is a hurdle we can deal with when we get to it, but seems unlikely to me personally.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#21 Post by DragoonHP » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:38 pm

I personally completely agree with the rule. One time in two months for self update isn't that big of a deal and gives everyone a fair shot of being in the top five posts.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#22 Post by Ryue » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:51 pm

Tom i think something needs a bit of clarification. You mentioned the „I stop offering“ as an exception to the once every 2 month rule. That means they can‘t make a new post when they are open again but instead need to edit the old post and say „update open again” correct?


For wip: good points there for my own project I use
Mosty edit Post to update the current status. New tops I do only whenever I try to incite some discussiion (which inusually fail at). But in all honesty during the last posts I saw I used the thread of
My wip mostly as a work log which could be housed easily on its own website with a link to it in the wip main post (from what I saw it is often the same with
Others). Once a month I think would sound good for wip threads as a limit although would that also affect
Nanoreno? (I think that is the name for that competition. Isn’t that?).


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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#23 Post by PyTom » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:56 pm

Honestly, if you have to open and close so often, something feels wrong. But I think it would be fine to edit your thread's title and first post to put in [Open] and [Closed] so as to indicate your status. The real problem is that I don't want people to open and close so often that it has the effect of bumping the post to keep it at the top of the list.

As for WiP, I haven't decided yet. I want those updated NaNoRenO projects, but we tend to have a lot of Patreon WiPs that go on forever, posting content nobody replies to on a weekly schedule as a way of bumping the thread. That's what I want less of.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#24 Post by hyuei » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:09 pm

I can say that I am those people who got registered here to offer services, and I am sorry for that. :( (I love to work on games and VN but I can’t code) But I am supporting this rule fully, since I also have doubts about this thing: “Is it okay if all these artists and I keep on filling this community forum with job posts?”. I’m afraid that somehow the services posts will overshadow the community posts, and this would turn into a job-offer forum. In fact, I arrived here because my friend said to me,”if you want some commissions, try lemmasoft!”.
But since this rule comes, I can feel a little bit relieved. It will made me get less commissions, sure, but at least I don’t feel as guilty as before.^^ And maybe not all people will agree with me, but I really liked that you guys are trying to make the discussions in this forum better.

Again, I am sorry for only posting job offer updates for these past few months, but after seeing this discussion, I think I will start exploring the discussion boards too. :)

Good luck all!
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#25 Post by Imperf3kt » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 pm

hyuei wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:09 pm
But since this rule comes, I can feel a little bit relieved. It will made me get less commissions, sure
I don't particularly think so. If you have a well presented thread with an aptly named title (open/closed etc are useful) then people will take a look. Posting a new post won't necessarily bring in new customers, it'll only keep your thread at the top of the subforum. At the same time, if you slip onto the second page or even further, those potential customers won't just take the first post in the forum to fill their job. They'll look around seeking an artist who meets their criteria, rather than just the first they see. It is highly likely they'll come across your thread even if its two or three pages in.

Having your thread on the first page certainly helps, but it isn't even a deciding factor to me if I were to pay somebody for doing work for me. I'm more interested in the cost and quality of the work as well the style, how friendly the artist, the artist's policy regarding potential redraws / other uses of the work and of course the most important factor; time - how long until I get the completed work.

There's also the "we are offering paid work" subforum where you can 'sell' yourself.
Go in, take a look around, find a job offering that suits your skillset and introduce yourself. In my opinion, being known in the community is a far better way to attract customers than simply bumping a thread frequently.
Take unclemugen for example. Every time I see someone suggest an artist for "free backgrounds", they always mention unclemugen instead of the countless other offerings available. This is most likely because people know unclemugen, they talk with him, and they remember his name.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#26 Post by hyuei » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:21 pm

Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 pm
I don't particularly think so. If you have a well presented thread with an aptly named title (open/closed etc are useful) then people will take a look. Posting a new post won't necessarily bring in new customers, it'll only keep your thread at the top of the subforum. At the same time, if you slip onto the second page or even further, those potential customers won't just take the first post in the forum to fill their job. They'll look around seeking an artist who meets their criteria, rather than just the first they see. It is highly likely they'll come across your thread even if its two or three pages in.
Thank you so much for your insight. I didn’t realise that the title will be that useful, I’ll be sure to update my titles. :D
And I agree with you—if I’m searching someone for my beloved project, I would want to get the most suitable one even if I have to search to the xth page. Nice point. :)
Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 pm
There's also the "we are offering paid work" subforum where you can 'sell' yourself.
Go in, take a look around, find a job offering that suits your skillset and introduce yourself. In my opinion, being known in the community is a far better way to attract customers than simply bumping a thread frequently.
Take unclemugen for example. Every time I see someone suggest an artist for "free backgrounds", they always mention unclemugen instead of the countless other offerings available. This is most likely because people know unclemugen, they talk with him, and they remember his name.
Thanks again for the tips! I’ll be sure to check the forum, and I’ll remember what you say. :)
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#27 Post by DarkChibiShadow » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:33 pm

Ryuno wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:57 am
This rule could effectively kill freelancing and collaborations on this site. Updated content should always be fair game, and to have it otherwise is punishing people for being productive on a creative-oriented community, no less.
This is definitely something I'm afraid of too-- but I think it also emphasizes the importance of using other sites to promote yourself as much as possible, and having your Lemma thread linked on profiles. (Freelancing in general right now requires the juggling of using a TON of sites!)
For instance-- I use Tumblr and Itch.io and I link my thread on both of those sites right on my profile.
It may not help with the bumping issue here but it at least helps keep my thread in front of potential clients outside of this site only?

IDK-- I know it's not a great alternative to bumping but it's something that might help...?
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#28 Post by LateWhiteRabbit » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:43 pm

hyuei wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:09 pm
Again, I am sorry for only posting job offer updates for these past few months, but after seeing this discussion, I think I will start exploring the discussion boards too. :)

Good luck all!
Having a link to your commissions and artwork in your signature and being active in discussions is probably the best way to get eyes on your job offer thread or portfolio. For instance, I hadn't seen your artwork until you posted as part of this discussion and I clicked on your signature.

Every discussion you participate in is putting your thread in front of people in that way.
Imperf3kt wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:47 pm
In my opinion, being known in the community is a far better way to attract customers than simply bumping a thread frequently.
Take unclemugen for example. Every time I see someone suggest an artist for "free backgrounds", they always mention unclemugen instead of the countless other offerings available. This is most likely because people know unclemugen, they talk with him, and they remember his name.
Exactly this. People are more likely to trust and seek commissions from a known forum participant. A lot of clients fear artists vanishing on them in the middle of a commission, and seeing that you are actively posting as a part of the community in normal discussions can go a long way in soothing those fears.

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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#29 Post by morinoir » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm

I have questions! /raises hand
What about those who ask question about our service in our thread? Or those who leave comments or review of our service? Since we can't really prevent that from happening, I wonder if it's still counted as bumping if we reply it? If someone leave nice message on my thread, naturally I would want to say thank you.
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Re: [Admin] New Rule 16, Services Offered

#30 Post by fleet » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:41 pm

morinoir wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:33 pm
I have questions! /raises hand
What about those who ask question about our service in our thread? Or those who leave comments or review of our service? Since we can't really prevent that from happening, I wonder if it's still counted as bumping if we reply it? If someone leave nice message on my thread, naturally I would want to say thank you.

In the first post of this thread the rule specifically said,
"An update is any post that is not:
a) A direct reply to a question or comment posted by another user."

The way I read the rule, it's NOT counted as bumping if you reply to comments or reviews.
I am NOT a moderator; my interpretation may be incorrect.
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