Lemma Soft Forums

papillon wrote: they make them young, but then try to make them like adults as well, always living on their own and all... it's silly!

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Often, when the game is more serious, you feel like they are saying very unnatural things... like in real life when sometimes a child says something very reasonable and true, but you know it probably just heard it in an adult conversation... so you kind of sense it and realize that the lines have been written by an adult (the game's writers) and it often breaks the atmosphere.

papillon wrote:Proper teenage sex comes with the added difficulties of always worrying about being caught by your parents!

Unless it's Gibo.

papillon wrote:Proper teenage sex comes with the added difficulties of always worrying about being caught by your parents!

*imagines what papillon's teenage life was like*

papillon wrote:Sadly, if you want to sell something in the US, once you've passed the boundary of being marked Adults Only, putting too much effort into the quality of your game is just going to be a waste, you still can't be sold outside of secret shady pornstops and most of the customers there don't WANT anything deep and thoughtful.

How true. This is the kind of phenomenon that I considered when thinking about making more adult-ish type games. It would attract visitors, but what kind of visitors? Not to say people who play adult games are bad people, but there are a lot of bad, crude people who play adult games Also, even if just one out of many games has adult content, the whole site becomes like an adult content site.

musical74 wrote:Oh, yeah, as gar as main topic here...I think I'd rather implied sex than explicit sex. The former leaves the reader to the power of his imagination, where as the latter doesn't. Just a thought.

This is a good point, but I think of it another way. Isn't the point of a visual novel to show and not just tell? Books leave the characters' appearances to the imagination, as well as many other things that visual novels do not. Therefore, when we make a visual novel, our aim must be to show more than we could with plain text. I say why not use this showing to the developer's advantage with sexual matters, like is done with other story matters? I think it could certainly be appropriate sometimes. Of course, implied sex could be more appropriate other times (like Kare Kano) depending on the target age.

Blue Lemma wrote:

papillon wrote:Proper teenage sex comes with the added difficulties of always worrying about being caught by your parents!

*imagines what papillon's teenage life was like*

... you played Abigail? There's my teenage life. Not all that exciting.

How true. This is the kind of phenomenon that I considered when thinking about making more adult-ish type games. It would attract visitors, but what kind of visitors? Not to say people who play adult games are bad people, but there are a lot of bad, crude people who play adult games Also, even if just one out of many games has adult content, the whole site becomes like an adult content site.

Once you've got anything that crosses the 'naughty' boundary, other websites will shun you and shun anyone who refuses to shun you. Linking to porn = as bad as porn, in a lot of people's books. They won't have anything to do with you.

At which point, you pretty much may as well give up and make a porn site.

And that's what annoys me so much, people having no sense of perspective. I'd be perfectly happy with a game that had only one highly-suggestive scene in it, but if having *any* sex at all gets you into trouble, then people feel pressed to choose between TONS of sex or NO sex.

The solution, of course, is to become powerful enough to not need anyone else's support! If commercial, this means having enough backing and traffic of your own to not have to cater to the whims of publishers and advertisers... if freeware, well, I suppose it just means having enough money, free time, and confidence to make your games your way.

And that's what annoys me so much, people having no sense of perspective. I'd be perfectly happy with a game that had only one highly-suggestive scene in it, but if having *any* sex at all gets you into trouble, then people feel pressed to choose between TONS of sex or NO sex.

I came across the online musings of one finally-no-longer-virgin person, and he had some pretty philosophical ideas about sex. Such as

- where exactly does sex begin? Intercourse? Foreplay? Kissing? How about driving to the motel with the intention to have sex? Heck, I could even conclude that the moment I picked up the phone, that's when I started having sex.

I'm afraid the dualistic thinking has a lot to do with U.S. social and political attitudes (yes, I'd rather not venture into discussion in that territory). Everything is always a spectrum. And even when people start to classify them, the diversity is hard to ignore:

http://heiseidemocracy.net/2005/09/08/n ... subgenres/

I would like to add (after having played all OEL games that run on my system), that most of them are Nakige. Not necessarily because they're 'crying games', but because the most effort was put to the writing. Even though short, the plots are novelesque, yet they are still ren'ai games. Nevertheless, there isn't much moe. It seems, according to what people have recently been doing, that the trend is to go even further into solid Visual Novel territory, while only keeping a foot within the bounds of ren'ai / romance.

The picture spectrum has been taken down since they moved the updated site to .com, but it looked somewhat like this:

Visual Novels_______ Nakige______ Dating Sims_______ Galge_______ Yaruge
<----------------------------------------------story---------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------sex---------------------------------------------->
---------------------moe-------------->maximum moe<------------moe--------------
----------------------------------|_______ ren'ai / bishoujo games________ |----------------

(The author defines dating sims and renai games as the same; I think we agree that dating sims have more open-ended gameplay; ren'ai just requires romantic elements)

DaFool wrote:It seems, according to what people have recently been doing, that the trend is to go even further into solid Visual Novel territory, while only keeping a foot within the bounds of ren'ai / romance.

Grrr, it's true! These days, people value stories more than romance.

The problem is though, plots need to be constructed by the mind. But romance has to be written from the heart. And I don't know, I really enjoyed At Summer's End - more than Visions. And maybe Visions was better constructed, better written, non-stereotypical and much less predictable... but despite all this, ASE got closer to me. Because of the romance. Because it was the central point.

Games like that never really get full points, because they have no stories. There's less to talk about and they are not well suited for discussions, because there's nothing going on, and nothing is ambiguous. Hence, no buzz, less popularity. But surely, I don't think the authors were less capable, or that they couldn't develop a cool storyline that would grip the player, lead him, set his imagination off, to finally shock him with some mind-blowing explanation at the end. They just chose something different. The games are called visual novels, but IMO their plots aren't everything.

DaFool wrote:- where exactly does sex begin? Intercourse? Foreplay? Kissing? How about driving to the motel with the intention to have sex? Heck, I could even conclude that the moment I picked up the phone, that's when I started having sex.
......
Everything is always a spectrum.

That guy does sound philosophical, but I just don't buy his reasoning. You start having sex when you pick up the phone to call someone about it? Heck, why stop there? How about when you *thought* about picking up the phone or walked over to the phone? Or did the things necessary to get to that stage in life? Since people are born with innate biological sex drives, does that mean we start having sex when we're born? I think you have to draw the line *somewhere*. Even on a spectrum, say a grayscale range, you can tell when some things are dark and when somethings are light. For instance, when you look up at the night sky, you can tell it is dark, even close to perfect black, even though the color is on a spectrum. I think the real blurriness is around the physical contact stages (and I won't go into details ^_^; )

Let's just say I don't think there's a court in the world that will press rape charges for picking up the phone with the intention of asking a person for sex who hasn't already consented.

DaFool wrote:I'm afraid the dualistic thinking has a lot to do with U.S. social and political attitudes (yes, I'd rather not venture into discussion in that territory).

Please remember that there is a great deal of diversity of opinions within the U.S.

mikey: I liked At Summer's End, too. It was short and sweet ^o^

I think romance is important in a game...it may not make for great storytelling - romance is an emotion, so that comes from the heart, but there's something about adding romance to a story that makes the game more fun. That's part of the reason why I like Season of the Sakura so much. It's all about romance and getting to know the characters, what drives them, and so forth. (Plus, they added a best friend, which so few games of the style add!)

I haven't played At Summer's End yet...looks like I should. If romance is the central point...I enjoy games that have such a focus. I think that's why I enjoy so many of the games here...I can tell that the people have put their heart into it, as well as their mind.

I've also noticed a trend in Visual Novels lately to push the story rather the romance. But, at the same time, I am a big fan of deeply story-driven games with a message of love at the center of it all. I like both bittersweet, unhappy, and happy games, provided that there is some romance going on ... so, in a way, I like the best of both worlds.

My feelings of implied sex in a game are mixed; I think it really depends on the type of story being told. Like, for a serious drama, it could be avoided so that it doesn't "cheapen" the experience.

But for a humorous story, I doubt that it will seriously impact it ... in fact, I prefer witty innuendos and implied jokes to blunt-force humor that can come off as crude.

DaFool wrote: where exactly does sex begin? Intercourse? Foreplay? Kissing?

Okay, since I was the one who started this thread, I guess I should give my input. I suppose I would draw the line at petting w/o clothing and bare nipples.

mikey wrote:

Blue Lemma wrote:I think the sex should just be left in. From an artistic standpoint, anyway. I know that makes obstacles with English localizations a lot, but if I were in charge of the world, no scenes would be deleted in the translations! Everything must be left in! Sexy or not! Yeah, I'm a purist like that ^_^;

Having sex scenes also says a lot about the production as such, its intended audience and so on.

I myself am infavor of "edited versions," particularly when they are official. Where I live a company just got shut down for selling edited versions of R-rated movies, and many people who want the good movie w/o the bad parts have a "what do we do now" attitude, because they feel alienated because they will not by unedited versions. Some have pettitioned to Hollywood to release the edited versions (used for TV and airlines). The main reason the business was under fire was because many felt that their artisic intensions were tampered with , wich I can understand, but I think it a bit foolish to isolate potential cutomers.

Likewise, I am totally for game publishers miking the personaly effort to release edited versions of their games.

musical74 wrote:Oh, yeah, as gar as main topic here...I think I'd rather implied sex than explicit sex. The former leaves the reader to the power of his imagination, where as the latter doesn't. Just a thought.

I'll should make the point that I am most squimish about is the nudity. I would prefer little nudity. I may be okay with sheets conceiling penetraion and something like an arm or even a lamp conceiling a breast. I think creative conceilment can itself be artistic.

mikey wrote:Hmmm, I find myself in disagreement here...

DaFool wrote:Who would want an practical adult protagonist who has to bust his or her ass to pay for the rent for the crappy apartment? Such characters are no fun at all.

That's just the anime way of seeing things, going into rent when you're 21. If a movie can have a romantic story that doesn't take place in high school (and they can), so can a VN.

I agree; I you marvelously proved your point with "Black Pencil" (BTW, since they windup living together, I'll assume that Yuki and Kiyoshi have had sex.

papillon wrote:Some of the Japanese games cheat a lot with their teenage characters - they make them young, but then try to make them like adults as well, always living on their own and all... it's silly! Proper teenage sex comes with the added difficulties of always worrying about being caught by your parents!

All too true. Of course, one way of cheating is that the parents are always abroad and so the male lead lives alone.
"Well, how conveeeeeeeeeeen-ent. Leaving him and whatever feamle he brings home to fronicate. Thrir naughty parts all engorged and tingly.... Hit it, Pearl."
*does superior dance*

Alessio wrote:

There was originally a PS2 version, that can't be run on DVD players. There is also a PC version, released half a year after the PS2 version, which has hentai pictures added in.

Now that's weird.

As, I a freind one time explained to me, a console is pretty much something the whole family plays, while PC games are for the office worker when the boss isn't looking.

Blue Lemma wrote:

papillon wrote:Sadly, if you want to sell something in the US, once you've passed the boundary of being marked Adults Only, putting too much effort into the quality of your game is just going to be a waste, you still can't be sold outside of secret shady pornstops and most of the customers there don't WANT anything deep and thoughtful.

How true. This is the kind of phenomenon that I considered when thinking about making more adult-ish type games. It would attract visitors, but what kind of visitors? Not to say people who play adult games are bad people, but there are a lot of bad, crude people who play adult games

Brrrrrrr. I shudder at the thought of what kind of people are those who play those dark games which are about raping school girls.

teankun wrote:I myself am infavor of "edited versions," particularly when they are official.

I found Phantom Of Inferno (my personal favorite bgame... of all time) to be just perfect - I mean I know there are h-scenes in the non-hirameki version, but playing it without them, I actually thought it was closer to the works that inspired it.

And besides, implied sex is works particularly good with the action genre - look at James Bond, the archetype of all implied sex scenes... all that it needs is a closeup on the bondgirl and James kissing... the trademark line "oh, James...", and a fadeout into the next morning (where preferrably the villains are already loading their machine guns to start the next action sequence). It's very sufficient and I'd say perfect for this, everyone knows James Bond is this charming and sophisticated attractive man (speaking of which, my wife particularly likes the fact that Bonds are usually that bit older than your usual action protagonist), and everyone knows he's having a lot of sex - but it's never shown and that's kind of... very appropriate, very... British ^_^

Sure there have been attempts or directors who wanted something more with Bond, but in essence James Bond are action movies with charm, and the implied sex formula just works best with it.

And it's also usually a matter of how far you think - basically everything can have implied sex - when a story features a married couple with children, you can also guess that they HAVE had sex, just from the fact that you know they are married and have a child.

But there's more - when someone says a sexual innuendo or a joke - you'd perhaps also expect them to know about what they're saying, so often in a conversation you indirectly state that you know what it's about = that you had sex. And so on.

teankun wrote: Likewise, I am totally for game publishers miking the personaly effort to release edited versions of their games.

I'll should make the point that I am most squimish about is the nudity. I would prefer little nudity. I may be okay with sheets conceiling penetraion and something like an arm or even a lamp conceiling a breast. I think creative conceilment can itself be artistic.

Actually its more the execution of sexyness rather than having nudity or not. In fact, what I find very skillful are directors who manage to convey an erotic feeling even with the characters having their clothes on!

One thing that I never indulge in is hardcore porn, because all you see are exposed body parts without context, and frankly I have a severely hard time understanding how anyone can be turned on at all.

So, besides O3, what doujin' titles would you suggest?

NARCISSU.

See also Red Shift; and A Midsummer Day's Resonance.

And please also try Metropolitan Blues to know that story is more important than art quality.

I think that for sex-but-no-sex, you are well off with MetroBlues, and possibly Kira Snowdrop, which had the sex scene cut out. You know it happened, but...

Thanks for mentioning MetBlues, although there are only two scenes of implied sex in the plot, one in the true ending and one earlier in the "loneliness path". There is also one _explicit_ scene in the omake which was originally intended for use in the game but cut just before I finally submitted the script to Kikered. I dug it back up when he said he needed something more to sweeten the omake... well, I won't publish it here for obvious reasons but actually, I still think the story is better _with_ the explicit scene. It reveals more about my protagonist's nature, AND it gives one more character trait to Her I couldn't fit into the normal story. (I also included a very small joke I saw much later repeated in episode one of 'Tripping the Rift', but that's one of the many coincidences of nature, I think.)