VNs slowly gaining Western popularity?

[Auro-Cyanide]

I don't see any reason why VNs couldn't be pretty popular in the west. Just not in their current form.

I don't think the majority of people are really that adverse to reading. Most of them are certainly capable of it. But there is a big difference between knowing you are reading and enjoying an experience. Plus, lots of people still read books on the trains, as well as newspapers, magazines, websites. People don't have a problem reading stuff if they are interested in it.

You know those VNs you have played through where the story has absorbed you. And then you have those VNs that make you painfully aware of the amount of text they have. That is the difference between good writing and bad writing. Good writing is extremely easy and natural to read. The ideas it presents may be very hard or thought provoking but the actual words should be second nature to people. Bad writing breaks that immersion and makes people aware of the act. This could be typos, inconstancies, words they don't recognise, stiff dialogue, plot holes, anything like that.

There is also space to be innovative with how you present the text. Voice acting is an obvious one. Others include the use of speech bubbles and integrating the text into the visuals or mechanics.

Hentai will be a no go in mainstream in my opinion. I think visual novels will have the most success on portable devices and no-one wants boobs popping up on the screen while they are in a public place.

There is also a lot of potential for VNs to innovate and create different gaming experiences. There is no reason at all to stick to just one way of doing something or to copy what others are doing. VNs are a unique medium with a lot of potential. People shouldn't be telling themselves 'I want to make something like x game', they should be asking 'What can I create with this medium?'. Please see this.

[jack_norton]

I have reliable sources (aka know many people) in casual games industry, and I know that some games failed mainly because had lots of text.
But also many texts and not enough visual attractiveness. I mean, if people have to stare at the same background/sprite reading text for 5 minutes, they'll get bored (most VNs are like that though).
That's also one reason why adventure games are instead much more popular. Less texts, more interactivity.
Voice acting can help for sure, if wasn't a pain to do it, I would add to all my games

[Blane Doyle]

I have reliable sources (aka know many people) in casual games industry, and I know that some games failed mainly because had lots of text.
But also many texts and not enough visual attractiveness. I mean, if people have to stare at the same background/sprite reading text for 5 minutes, they'll get bored (most VNs are like that though).
That's also one reason why adventure games are instead much more popular. Less texts, more interactivity.
Voice acting can help for sure, if wasn't a pain to do it, I would add to all my games

This is why Phoenix Wright being extremely popular while something like Time Hollow was not well received does not surprise me. (then again, the former has a better story too)

When you have a VN with very little gameplay, the story has to be OMGAMAZING sometimes to get people to play and read it or it has to have some form of interactivity. Unless they are a reader already it can be extremely hard for new players to get into the genre without some kind of gameplay.

This is part of why I suggest games like Magical Diary or Disgaea (I know, technically the originals do not count). With MG there is a stat raising system in addition to a fun story, while Disgaea had the visual novel styled cut scenes for the great story and a very nice amount of gameplay as well. Conversely, this is also why I suggest very short or AMAZING games to beginners, because I know that otherwise many people will get bored quickly.

It can be the opposite way, however. I have a few friends who adore visual novels and games like Pokemon or Heavy Rain but cannot stand to play things like Skyrim or Resident Evil. They don't like the extra gameplay elements, they prefer the story and being able to focus more on it. But this is all based on personal preference I suppose, I also have my brother who skips cutscenes and wonders what the heck is going on in front of him. 8|
I don't think he has the patience for a visual novel.

I also think that the user interface and art style has an influence on whether or not games do well. A very bland interface but amazing graphics may not be better than a very nice interface with very nice graphics. Even a lack of sprite difference can apparently cause some issues, as a friend of mine has complained multiple times about games that have 1 character with 7 faces... but one pose.

And yes, voice acting DOES help! In the case of DS games it is more lenient (not many have voice acting to start with), but console and PC titles are very often expected to have voice acting, be it in Japanese or English, and having so does seem to increase interest and enjoyment for some. For example, I have a friend who has just gotten into the genre and I started her out on VNovel Interactive games. She was shocked that Ripples had voice acting and despite it being so short she admitted that it made it more enjoyable for her than, say, Songs of Araiah. Despite actually liking the second game just as much.

.... I am sorry, that was MUCH longer than intended. 0_0

[Auro-Cyanide]

I would have to see some pretty strong evidence to conclude people don't like reading. It doesn't seem like the first logical conclusion I would come to, but maybe the most straight forward one. Even if you have players telling you that there is too much text, that might not be actually the problem. It might be a result of another problem, like the writing is not being engaging enough, the material is missing the audeince, not enough interaction etc. I just think there are so many ways to make written story telling engaging that people shouldn't be so quick to blame the players. Most of the responsibilty in investigating an audience and creating the mechanics rests on the developers shoulders.

[jack_norton]

There are people who don't like a setting, for example sci-fi. My girlfriend for example, doesn't even watch a movie/read a book if she know that is sci-fi.
Similarly, on the MASS-MARKET, there is a big group (mostly males) who simply don't like reading. There's also a group who likes it of course, but I've found LOTS of evidence of that during the past 3-4 years.
I remember the comments when I made some VNs on Kongregate:
"geez, if I wanted to read I'd read a book"
"Too much text"
"Boring... too much text"
"Skipped most of the text only to see the beautiful images"
obviously, lemmasoft is particular since is a forum for people who LIKE to read. But as soon as you go out on "the internet" you realize that is different.
Random example: Mojang CEO (Minecraft author) on twitter made a lapidary comment about Recettear "Boring game with too much text". (can't remember the exact words but was like that). And it wasn't even a VN!!

If you check RPS (rockpapershotgun), apart their love for C.Love (haha forgive the pun) they basically said for ANY other VNs they review "too much texts". While they love Wadjet Eye adventures for example, or indeed C.Love for the setting and more interaction than the basic VNs.

[applegirl]

I've got to agree with Jack based on my real life experience with friends who love games. Not one of them like visual novels, despite enjoying Mass Effect/Heavy Rain. I've read threads that complained heavily about lack of gameplay and there are a lot of guy gamers who want to have action/adventures.

Not to mention a problem with the art style of visual novels. Anime/manga is popular here, but a lot of mainstream gamers pass on a game with anime/manga art style. The only exception I noted was Final fantasy and maybe a few indies with beautiful 3D backgrounds. I've read a lot of comments where game players were like "ugh, anime/manga art style means pass."

[Auro-Cyanide]

I've got to agree with Jack based on my real life experience with friends who love games. Not one of them like visual novels, despite enjoying Mass Effect/Heavy Rain. I've read threads that complained heavily about lack of gameplay and there are a lot of guy gamers who want to have action/adventures.

Not to mention a problem with the art style of visual novels. Anime/manga is popular here, but a lot of mainstream gamers pass on a game with anime/manga art style. The only exception I noted was Final fantasy and maybe a few indies with beautiful 3D backgrounds. I've read a lot of comments where game players were like "ugh, anime/manga art style means pass."

But that isn't from not want to read, that is lack of interactivity. It could quite well be the problem, but know people it could quite well not be. People have a bad habit of explaining things in very simple, if inaccurate, terms. Like I said, them saying 'This game has too much text' might very well actually mean 'I didn't find the content interesting' or 'The writing lacked proper flow and so was hard to read'. The first statement is very easy for them to say because it is their reaction. They however are not thinking about what has made them have their reaction. It also doesn't help that people have perceived notions of what something is going to be like. Like Jack's friends aversion to sci-fi. She could very well be missing out on stuff she would enjoy because she already has it set in her mind that she won't like it.

But I agree VNs would have to change to appeal more widely. They can't be quite as text based as they are and more interactivity will be needed. But at the end of the day text is simply a tool, just like pictures, sound and mechanics. It's what you do with them that counts and I think with some innovation and careful consideration you would find a much wider audience than you would expect. You just have to engage them. Plus, it isn't the mainstream gamers you want to go for, those guys already have their games. You want the casual gamer market or the market that isn't even gamers yet but have suddenly got devices that can play games and an hour of free commuter time.

[Adorya]

Instead of looking back at the video game side, maybe it would be interesting to peek at the reading side aka the ebook rise.

Even though it has a big potential (considering the huge success of mobile phone novels in the east) and a wider audience potential in the west, its sucess is still in slumber because of lack of functional reader and copyright battles issues.

So let's move a bit to the "entertainment side" from the ebook to the online comics. Same potential, same issue but the target audience narrow our, and only missing interactivity.

What would be the consensus then? Seems to be a partial answer has been made with the turbo media, which is a new rising concept even acknowledged by Scott Mc Cloud. It uses flash to provide interaction and a new form of narrative story without falling into the flashy special effects of a flash movie because it call itself an online comic using techniques from various media.

If this media succeed, I think this is where western audience is going to if it reject the novel part, and maybe this is where the VN can introduce itself discreetly in order to gain popularity.

tl;dr> more visual and narrative story and less text should be the way to go for western audience

[Auro-Cyanide]

Anything using Flash won't work right now because Apple doesn't support it. Unless that changes sometime in the future I can't imagine Flash being of much help. That generally leaves other programming languages that are web supported but it would need more dedicated programmers as well.

[Mirage]

^
That problem can be easily solved with adobe AIR.

[Percon]

Or you can also use a multi-platform language and push to as many different platforms as possible.

[LateWhiteRabbit]

I would have to see some pretty strong evidence to conclude people don't like reading. It doesn't seem like the first logical conclusion I would come to, but maybe the most straight forward one. Even if you have players telling you that there is too much text, that might not be actually the problem. It might be a result of another problem, like the writing is not being engaging enough, the material is missing the audeince, not enough interaction etc. I just think there are so many ways to make written story telling engaging that people shouldn't be so quick to blame the players. Most of the responsibilty in investigating an audience and creating the mechanics rests on the developers shoulders.

I agree. Saying people don't like to read is a cheap excuse. How many people, adults, children, and teens alike not just read, but devoured books like Harry Potter, Twilight, or the Hunger Games? The Mass Effect novels have been so successful there are 4 and counting. That proves that a lot of "gamers" are reading novels on the side.

Something I've been thinking about for a while regarding this is that Visual Novel graphics may actually HURT enjoyment or reading of them. It goes back to having lots of text and few sprites or backgrounds. When I read a novel I see a whole movie in my head, can see the characters performing the actions, see their expressions and see the backgrounds described in the writing. However, with Visual Novels this is MUCH harder to do. I can't see the characters move in my mind because I can see them right in front of me and they aren't moving. I get stuck with ONE image in my head, a still frame from a movie, and the longer I am forced to read, the more abrasive having to focus on one image becomes. I have to really "work" to imagine the scenes in my head.

But Auro-Cyanide is on track saying the written story probably isn't engaging enough if the player is getting bored reading it.

[Mirage]

I think there is a difference between people getting bored reading a story or not reading at all. I would be bored too if all I do in a game is simply clicking through texts that I don't even bother to read.

I don't think most people hate reading. It's more like when one plays game, they aren't expected to read, or in the case of VN, do nothing else but read. Most people would skim through the texts thinking that there will be some kind of gameplay at the end of it. And after clicking through 50 sentences or so, they will dismiss the game as bad because there are too many "texts" and no gameplay at sight.

Now is this really the fault of the story being not well written enough? Or is it really the wrong expectation people have with VN labeled as games?

As for why having other stuff like Voice or Animation may help getting people enjoy story-heavy games (like Heavy Rain/Dear Esther), it's because they work like movie. Movies are commonly accepted in games because of the presence of cutscene. Some games that cleverly integrate gameplay into their story (Phoenix Wright/999) are also successful for similar reason. All those texts can be seen as cutscene, or rewards after solving a case.

[Auro-Cyanide]

Now is this really the fault of the story being not well written enough? Or is it really the wrong expectation people have with VN labeled as games?

We should keep both in mind, just as we should keep in mind who it is that is giving the opinion. My point is that we shouldn't assume that it is the fault of the audience 'not getting it' when there could be other very valid problems and things we can do to solve them.

We also need to stop thinking about things only in current terms. Chasing after the coat tails of mainstream games isn't going to get us anywhere. What we should be doing is looking at the bigger picture, looking at ALL potential audiences and finding out where our markets are. Not everyone is going to be into VNs, but I refuse to beleive that they don't have potential to expand into a wider market if certain things are addressed.

Also remember that Zynga is currently kicking most other mainstream studio's arses. The people who are playing Zynga's games don't even consider themselves gamers! They are just people looking for entertainment. There is no reason why we should be defining ourselves by the way things currently are. It won't be too long and almost everyone will be looking for games to play and they will be looking for all types. Puzzles, Sims, RPGs, MMOs, FPSs, RTSs and everything inbeween and outside the box. To say our medium has no value to the rest of the world because it has words and that people don't like reading is quite possibly missing the forest for the trees.

*I'm talking about the expansion of the market as a whole, not necessarily what has to be done just this minute. Just advising people keep their minds open and don't take things at face value.

[applegirl]

Ah...but those authors are brilliant writers. I mean, excluding Twilight of course. I happen to love reading and enjoy visual novels a lot. But there are quite a few visual novels where I've heavily relied on the fast forward button (I can actually remember one where I pressed down for a majority of the visual novel). It wasn't a terrible visual novel and I happened to like the idea of the story, but the writing was so dull and the story was so simple that I figured I could literally skim it and figure out what occurred with little loss in character development/entertainment value. It was actually a correct decision, believe it or not.

But it is true that if the writing is brilliant enough and the story is compelling, gamers will respond. Reaching that level consistently is just difficult. I've read enough jp VNs and OLEVNs to feel pretty comfortable in saying that the exceptional ones are recognized (and highly recommended). But there are far more inferior ones that dampens the enthusiasm and response of the public. A personal example for me was reading a recent VN from a group whose work I really enjoyed. I stopped after 10 minutes, dropped the visual novel, and just felt disappointed. The art and interface were great as usual, but the story and writing killed it for me. I picked it up two more times to try to change my opinion, but I couldn't get into the story. Whenever I get that disappointed (especially by a group whose work I've enjoyed before), it really makes me not want to go near any visual novels.

tl;dr: Writing for visual novels is incredibly important. Boredom may not come from length, but style/quality.