From the pit of despair... (or, Newgrounds dating sims)

[gekiganwing]

I posted a message much like this one on the Shira Oka forums. However, I haven't received any replies yet, so I figured that I could bring the discussion here.

Back in spring 2004 -- mere weeks after I discovered Tales of Lemma -- I found two games that had been created by the people who owned the domain forkheads.tk. Those were the fangames known as Love Hina Sim Date RPG and a similar Evangelion-themed game. At the time, I noted that they had interesting gameplay ideas, and I thought there was potential. But the writing and characterization? The following emoticons should summarize my feelings:

I know that Mikey tried to give some of the other Newgrounds games a chance. However, I didn't. I took a look or two at the titles of the games and said, "No. Too superficial. Not likely to have even a little bit of intelligence." I wanted to like the amateur game makers' efforts, but I just felt that there would be nothing but letdowns. I started calling the site a "pit of despair" -- a dumping ground for shallow, fanboys-only games.

In October 07, I realized that it had been over a year since I had last visited Newgrounds. I decided to give the site one more chance. And whattaya know, I found something different. Something which didn't necessarily use pre-existing characters. Something... shoujo. (I have a high regard for shoujo. In fact, I can be an avid supporter of just about any sort of media which doesn't appeal to a young adult male demographic.) Here's a link: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/330513 I won't declare this game to be Teh Best Thing Evar. But from the few minutes I've played this game, it seems to be a nice change. It isn't a collection of stupid, dirty jokes and nonsensical combat.

The game's creator also worked on a Naruto fangame with a female point-of-view. I also tried this one for a few minutes. It isn't life-changing, but the characterization is pretty good. The game manages to combine stat-building, gift-giving, and other simulation elements into a package that makes sense. Link: http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/237305

The person who created these two games maintains her own site at http://nummyz.com

I know I've been critical, but these days I'm feeling a bit more compassionate towards the Newgrounds community. I'm glad to see that someone is trying to create a new demographic.

...That said, any thoughts?

[DaFool]

Thanks for the heads-up!

I'm glad to see that someone is trying to create a new demographic.

Agreed, but I don't think the purpose was to create a new demographic per se. NG just happens to be a compilation of amateur media, similar to renai.us. So its just a matter of whoever who wants to contribute something new and different doesn't feel offput by what's currently on there.

I started calling the site a "pit of despair" -- a dumping ground for shallow, fanboys-only games.
...
Something... shoujo. (I have a high regard for shoujo. In fact, I can be an avid supporter of just about any sort of media which doesn't appeal to a young adult male demographic.)
...
...That said, any thoughts?

I'm going on a tangent now, because the way you phrase things just begs me to respond, even though the topic is no longer about the new shoujo games on New Grounds, but about the underlying assumptions we have.

Maybe you meant the Halo-playing demographic. But that's also another generalization, since I find nothing wrong with Halo per se. My personal fandom grew up on Kodocha and Fruits Basket and Precure, but at the same time my first exposure was to Ninja Scroll and Wicked City.

I think it's still possible to make a fanboy-centric and at the same time intelligent piece. (Genshiken, NHK, anyone?)

Maybe this is a discussion which can be explored further...
http://animeotaku.wordpress.com/2006/07 ... t-shounen/

So I think many guys are still uncomfortable with exploring stories beyond the explosions or pantsu (or both). And that translates into the doujinshi they create.

But this girl sums it up precisely for me:

But as I got older, I realized that I liked a lot of the philosophical seinen stuff like Haibane Renmei, Mushishi and Kino no Tabi.

I'd add Monster and Claymore (the mature end of Shonen) since they were both highly philosophical to me, despite the overload of suspense or/and violence.

but I disagree here:

Because if you’re a sensitive straight guy who likes shoujo, you can vouch that lots of female anime fans will be all over you, as opposed to if you were an ero-game fanatic.

EF! (A professional shoujo mangaka in an 'eroge'.) I think eroge as a whole (the professional and the translated ones at least) are going towards deeper characterization in general. So I'm not surprised as more doujinshi makers follow that lead, both in Japan and abroad.

People realize now that NG is not just a repository for fanboy games, but is a repository for amateur games.

Same reason people realize now that there are eroge for girls, since visual novels are just mediums.

[JQuartz]

Girls like shoujo manga/anime/games.
Guys like shounen manga/anime/games.

Works that caters specifically to guys are generally not liked by girls.
Works that caters specifically to girls are generally not liked by guys.
Works that caters to both gender require double the effort just to achieve the same quality as one that specifically caters to any one gender.

Works that does not cater to a specific gender's needs are not a letdown.

nuff said.

[Jake]

To be honest, I'd just have gone with "Newgrounds is mainstream. 'Nuff said."

Whatever we might like to think, the LemmaSoft forums are an incredibly niche audience; the world outside likes different things to us. Shallow things are the easiest to interest most people with, because - since they don't ask much of the consumer in terms of thought or emotional investment - they're the easiest to consume. They might not hold your attention for very long, and they might not stick in the mind like something more thought-provoking or more involved might, but they offer quick and easy gratification. To the greater population, that's the default mode.

However, just because it's the default mode doesn't mean it's the only mode - the same Hollywood as made Home Alone, Sister Act 2 and Final Destination also made The Shawshank Redemption, Fight Club and Brazil, it just churns those better titles out less frequently. It shouldn't come as any surprise that Newgrounds might be the same - lots of dross, some good stuff, some stuff which is technically good but doesn't appeal... and so on. Get a large enough population anywhere and the story will be the same.

[papillon]

... fight club is massively overrated by people who completely missed the point... does it make it a better film if it demonstrates its actual point by drawing people into the fake point just like the people in the movie itself are?

[Jake]

does it make it a better film if it demonstrates its actual point by drawing people into the fake point just like the people in the movie itself are?

It makes it a better-written film, and the reason I'll continue to use it as an example of a cut above the normal Hollywood movie is because I remember it being a very tightly-scripted film - not just in the normal no-scene-wasted sense, but also because it managed to maintain its façade so well all through the movie and yet not fall apart totally on a second viewing. The Sixth Sense does a similar thing, for that matter, but I'd argue that Fight Club is a more-fun movie to watch a second time. It's not one of my all-time favourite movies, but I'll easily call it better than Home Alone, Sister Act 2 (or 1, for that matter!) or most of all Final Destination, which I think is possibly the worst movie I've sat all the way through.

[papillon]

Oh, true, true. It's not a bad film. I just tease because I see crazy fans online ranting in what seems like a bafflingly wrong direction from my viewpoint.

[Ren]

my first exposure was to Ninja Scroll and Wicked City.

I <3 you, just for that.

[musical74]

*casts revive thread*

By in large I'm not thrilled with Newgrounds. Once in a while they do a good flash game but for every one good flash game....you get tens or hundreds that are *YEESH gimme a break!*

I think the main thing that turns me off to Newgrounds is *the heck with a story, let's just show a bunch of naughty pics with a pathetic plot, and who cares if there's massive cursing, people just want to see the pics, right?*.....um, no. Granted, you'll find a lot that say *ooooo pretty pics* but I'll go for a game that has a good story over one with lousy story and cursing massively...Love Hina SimDate, the Sex Kitten series are both no plt and massive cursing...give me a break! I don't mind one or two curse words, more so if they are the milder ones but...I'll take a game where there's some kind of plot or a game where, at least, everything is *clean* text wise, over the Love Hina style games....

[gekiganwing]

Back in the last reply (in December 07), musical74 expressed an interest in games with plot. Well, thanks to some forum, I heard about a Newgrounds game called Summer Dreams. Here's my first impressions, from the first five minutes or so of gameplay.

I wanted to see if Summer Dreams could present a creative story or an interesting game system. Sadly, I must admit that I lost interest in the first five minutes. The plain drawing style didn't bother me (after all, I liked Kasuka). Nor did the seemingly ordinary characters -- at least they weren't just taken from an existing franchise.

It was the writing that turned me off. Let me explain. There was fourth-wall humor. Sometimes, that can work. But I felt that the fourth-wall comedy in Summer Dreams leaned too much toward the "k1ll1n d00dz 1z t3h funnyz lol" sort of humor. And in my opinion, comedy only works when it's balanced out with drama or lots of character-establishing moments. For instance, if there had been nothing in Heart de Roommate except a few scenes of stupid comedy, then I would probably have sold that game.

...And yes, my current attitude toward genre and style is still very much "shoujo FTW!" It's immature to think that way, but I still believe shoujo has a lot to offer.

[Guest]

Of course it does...yaoi, yaoi and more damn yaoi...oh, what joy it is to have that forced down my throat in every show in some way or another, by some rabid, pathetic fangirl.
That is what Shoujo has to offer.
Or by Clamp, in their works that isn't put in the shoujo category (xxxHolics and Tsubasa, are the worst offenders here) yet they are still compelled to put that crap in things I want to enjoy WITHOUT having to read through things like that.

This might seem harsh to people, but Shonen isn't the only form of entertainment that fucking sucks.
Shoujo with the yaoi from everywhere is far worse.

It doesn't even stop with the shoujo part of manga either.
Clamp, for example, is also writing shounen and seinen work, and they still put in disgusting amounts of yaoi...

So yeah, if you people want to complain about shounen, I'd like to note that shoujo isn't really the perfection some of you make it out to be.
Especially not when it starts to infect other things as well, such as my seinen or even some good shounen.

So yeah, feel free to complain about that, but at least bring up some bad points about the yaoi shih that is going on in shoujo, as well.

Now, you might consider me homophobic...well, guess what?
I pay for manga and such, and when I do I don't want to have things like that forced on me, especially not when I take pains to avoid shoujo and its accompanying yaoi.

If they want to create doujinshi, and give it out for free, they are more than welcome to do so, since nothing would force me to deal with that...but such isn't the case here with the manga I want to buy, since it, in some way (once again, especially if clamp has anything to do with it at all, in any way, shape or form) will be involved in what I pay for, even though I wasn't warned or anything like that.

For those that don't want to read this, here is an abridged version
Shoujo sucks just as much as other forms of entertainment, no matter what any fangirls or guys (?) that like it wants to say.
Mostly because of Clamp and their obsession with putting damn yaoi in everything they do.

[Ren]

Every genre has its bad examples, you know?
It feels like something...obvious to say, to me...and obvious things don't necessarily need to be said or written in my opinion

As for the Yaoi Clamp put in their mangas: surely, you don't seem to enjoy it and if you read them you have to put up with it but, really...you don't have to?
As much as it's true that you pay for their mangas it's also true that they have the freedom to include whatever contamination of genre they please, you just have not to buy their stuff any more.

That is, unless your doctor or some kind of dictator or Clamp themselves decided to force Yaoi down your throat and are threatening you with a Bazooka, in that case I feel sorry for you.

[N0UGHTS]

I know Guest probably isn't here anymore, but... Eh, this is for everyone else.

Shoujo... sucks? You mean... girls suck? :smacks Guest: What the heck is wrong with you?! Without girls there wouldn't be bishoujo! :smacks: There wouldn't be... You know what! :smacks: :smacks: :smacks: Wait, you're talking about shoujo manga? Okay... Conversely I can say hentai sucks because there's too much Girls' Love, Girls' Love, Girls' Love. Eh? EH?! How 'bout that, you... :jabs:

...Look, most girls like Boys' Love, because most girls like guys. Can't be helped. If girls didn't like guys, then guys wouldn't... Well, they'd still have porn, and a good number wouldn't mind seeing two girls together and fantasizing about them, but you know what? If girls really were not aroused by men, that'd probably put humans on the Critically Endangered List. XD And, entertainment is just a way people get away from reality. So, of course entertainment has fantasies. And since shoujo manga is (obviously) directed towards girls, then of course it'll have girly fantasies. And vice versa with shounen... Of course, most grow out out of those old fantasies, see them as juvenile, and have more adult fantasies... Or so they think. XD Every good book empowers the reader, whether it's sending them to another world, making the protagonist overcome great things (or not, buahahahaha!), or exploring personal (though fictional) relationships between (fictional) people.

Also, if you like GL, and GL in your manga, you should know that shoujo manga started the trend. :smacks: Shiroi Heya no Futari. Sound familiar? No? :smacks: I should shank you with my USB drive for not knowing about it! But I guess scissors are just as fun. :shank: If you can't be bothered to find something so old, then go find Kuchibiru Tameiki Sakurairo instead.

If you don't like GL, either, you are a sad, sad, individual. I would even start to pity you if you didn't like that. You would never understand what you're missing...

I understand disliking BL. Nowadays most of it is junk, and, well, most guys aren't attacted to other guys, and those who do prefer gei-comics instead. But criticizing a genre for the specific fantasies it contains... That's like criticizing entertainment and fantasy as a whole, yeah? And criticizing BL is like criticizing (guy-loving) women. It's like going, "You suck for liking it when hawt guys are in heat together!" Or saying, "Women aren't supposed to be attracted to more than one hawt guy at a time!" Or something like that. :grumble shank grumble: The heck is wrong with you? Hawt guys in heat, how can that suck... It's like saying hawt girls in heat suck... :shudders at thought: And like saying sexy manly things suck, which would mean... Which would mean I would suck...

[Guest]

The story of xxxHolic is too interesting to miss, though, so I can't very well stop that.

Also, my comment was in regards to people on this topic complaining about the other, well, demographics is as good a word as any I suppose, while lifting shoujo up into absurd levels.

It just annoyed me, thats all, and I felt it deserved to be brought down, if possible below seinen at the very least.



Also, to the poster above?
I'm still here, so lets try and deal with some of your points, alright?

Ignoring the insults thrown at me personally, since you (hopefully) don't want this to degrade into a flamewar.
Also, if we were to talk about fantasies, then I don't suppose you would mind if we talked about all the numerous times girls have complained about women being sexualized in the media?

The same thing applies there, man.
If they can complain about girls being objects of lust there, I damn well have a right to voice my complaints about shoujo and the need those particular works of managa fulfill, as I believe that is how you put it.

Of course, I'm going to guess there is a difference here, right?

Also, those girls that do watch that still complain about women being sexualized, even when they themselves fulfill their fantasies.
Probably because they don't want to be compared to some supermodel by other guys, but the point it still there...
They complain about it, while still indulging in their own private fantasies, so the same should apply to guys.
Which means I have a right to complain about the disgusting amount of yaoi they put in, if this equality thing is to be applied consequentially.
And that also means that, as long as there are girls that complain about women being sexualized, in some form, while enjoying yaoi or other such things, I have the same right to complain about shoujo and the yaoi it bring, while still enjoying girls going out with one another.
Note, however, that I'm not specifically against homosexual relationships in manga, such as that depicted in canon YYH, and not the sick crap hiei and kurama create.

I am, however, against what has happened here, where clamp puts in that kind of work in stories not for girls, but for boys and young men.

Huh.
Maybe I should enter with a username and such, it might make it easier to answer some points here.

[Ren]

I would very much like if this *didn't* turn out to be a flame war, though, you know?
I think we can have a perfectly polite conversation and disagree while respecting each other's point of view.

What I disagree upon is your idea that is wrong to put Yaoi(maybe we should call it BL, since Yaoi is usually porn and that would be another problem entirely) in a Shonen or Seinen or shoujo story.
To make an easy example, why would it be bad to make a vampire story with Western elements?
All I would care about is the story, if it's well written it will work out in the end, I think

I can kind of agree though when you say that women satisfy their fantasies as well, though.
And I agree that if we feel entitled to our own share of Yaoi, Bl or whatever, we shouldn't fake some sort of indignation if you like to stare at some hentai (as long as no one's freedom is hurt, that is, I don't feel *that* comfortable with real pornography for many reasons...)