Experienced Ren'ai Game & Dating Sim Players?

[JunsuinoKokoro]

Hello everyone. I was hoping I could get a little bit of help from some experienced ren'ai and dating sim players. I'm heavily involved with creating a presentation and panel about the mentioned game genres at the Sakuracon anime convention for 2006, and I'm currently not educated enough or even well-versed in the fields. I'm looking for a few good men/women that might be willing to help me put something together to help educate the people who attend the panel at the convention about these games. If anyone here would be willing to give some time to this, please let me know. Thanks all who read for at least checking out the post .

[PyTom]

Well, I'm interested in anything that grows acceptance of our little genre. What can we do to help, specifically?

Is the focus to be more on English-language (professionally translated, fan-translated, original) games, or do you also want to cover the Japanese market?

[Sai]

Hello and welcome. Nice to see you'll be spreading the word about such games.
If you're just looking for general information these links may help:

http://renai.gwathyr.net/dsvn_faq_rev01.2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishojo_game

Sorry I haven't more time to do much else but theres a few places that have already put together info better than I ever could. If you've got any specific questions then fire away, we'd be happy to help.

[Blue Lemma]

I would also try firing off a message to Mari-chan http://lemmasoft.renai.us/forums/profil ... ofile&u=65
She's been doing the same thing.

Btw, I used to live in Gresham Now I'm back in Corvallis.

[JunsuinoKokoro]

Thank you so much for responding . Well, let's see... I haven't given too much thought about what specifically I'd need. My first thought about taking up this assignment was to find informative contacts. I suppose that's been established. I'll tell you my idea on the fly then and see what I need from there.

The target audience are anime fans (adults only) who have heard of ren'ai games through anime. The presentation and panel will be held at the anual anime convention known as Sakuracon. Many people in the states have been introduced to ren'ai games through anime, myself included. The two anime I have personally watched based on ren'ai games, visual novels if you will, are Kanon and D.C. ~ Da Capo. My interest in ren'ai games sparked from them, and the same with many other anime fans. But as they are somewhat a new concept to the American populus, we know hardly anything about them.

An introduction would need to be made from the get go. From the sources Sai provided (Thank you Sai!) I'm pretty sure I can scrape by for that. Beyond that, I really feel that some examples need to be brought up. I know that Air is a really hot game to speak about now, especially since it wasn't long ago that an anime adaptation was made of it. Kanon was also made by Key, and maybe I could bring up that as well. I've heard things about Shuffle... So in other words, I suppose I need some detailed reviews and accounts of individuals experiences with some of the well-known and appreciated games out there. And sample graphics from these games would be greatly appreciated as well. Summaries of various story possibilities will need to be said as well in order to give people the idea of the game genre.

After an introduction, and a run through of a couple of examples, I need to grab any and all information you all can provide me so I can attempt to answer questions the crowd will have.

So you have an idea of where I'm currently at, I'm barely above the above mentioned audience . I only know a little bit about ren'ai games because Kanon so took me that I had to look up online to fill in all the holes in the anime. Then I started reading about all the different endings, and started to understand things. My only other inlet to it is that for a long time I've collected the CG sets of these games because their art work can be just absolutely gorgeous. And even without text, one can piece together a great deal of the stor(y/ies) with just the imagery.

For the moment, I could use a bombardment of information of the classic games out there, hopefully some storylines, character information, and game play styles. Samples of the artwork in those games would be awesome too.

I'll PM people with my email address.

Thanks so much for responding. Hopefully I can help this genre of games be recognized in the States.

[PyTom]

One of the keys to giving a sucessful talk is to talk about what you know. So I think the key to making this talk successful would be to focus on areas where you can be brought up to speed in time, rather than on areas where it's unlikely. (I'm assuming here that you don't speak/read Japanese... that would change things alot.)

My interest too was sparked by Kanon and Da Capo. (And I'd add to that list, in my case, the 2003 Mizuiro OVA... very good story for a very small time investement.) But I don't think that one could be qualified to talk about those games without having actually played them. It would be like trying to talk about a movie without having seen it. And answering questions without having seen it is probably really troublesome.

I'd talk a bit about where the games fit as compared to other mediums. For example, b-games tend to be much more textual then a manga or anime, but more visual then a novel. They have less gameplay then just about any other genre of game, but more so then any of the things listed above.

I'd probably focus in on the games available in English. That means three types of games:

- Commercial Games. I'd probably limit these to the better games... we can argue which ones are better. Basically, there's now two sources for commerical games... Hirakmeki, and the Peter Payne/J-List zaibatsu.

Some of the commercial games are Ren'Ai, and many aren't. So I think you might want to explore this a little.

- Fan-Translations. Hopefully, a few full-length games will be out by the time of the con, but there are already a number of shorts fully translated. (Planetarian, Narcissu, Soremata) I'd talk a bit abou these.

- Fan Games. Hey, we make Western Anime-Style games, which the audience might be interested in knowing about.

I might also talk a bit about the game -> anime route, especially as an alternative to the more traditional manga -> anime one. Quite a few recent series started off as games...

My suggestion would be to focus on games available in English, as that makes your talk accessible to the largest audience. Of course, that's just my opinion. (The Megatokyo DSVN forum would probably have a differing opinion... but that's not as acessible as one would hope, either.)

Realize, though, that if you're going to give the talk, you have to be the expert on this.

As for me, I'm waiting for the day I can give my "Gentle Introduction to Ren'Py" talk.

I apologize for the lack of coherent thought... it's late!

[Mari-chan]

I have a handout!

I ran a similar panel at ACEN & AX this year, and the people over at Kumoricon apparently liked the handout & PowerPoint presentation I sent them. PM me if you want it.

[mikey]

Well, I've done several presentations and the advice I have is first that as PyTom said you critically need to be an expert or at least have a good overview. You will have to really know about the subject so you can talk naturally and people feel that you are confident.

Thing is, that it's a bad habit at the cons I attend that people actually read their lectures and somehow slowly show their points. I would probably die of shame if I had to read my lectures. So I memorize them, more or less 45 minutes of speech. If you have a slide show accompanying the presentation, the slides will give you some clues as to what is next - it's a bit more elegant than a paper with bullet points that have your speech structure.

There's thousands more things in fact. But the bottom line is, you have to know what you're talking about. It's not unusual to actually study for the presentations.

[rioka]

There's thousands more things in fact. But the bottom line is, you have to know what you're talking about. It's not unusual to actually study for the presentations.

Ahhh, those speech classes in high school and college will certainly help right about now, then. =)

Aside from what everyone else has suggested, if you do not know the answer to that question, be honest and reply that you don't know but you'll look into it. If you want to go further - make a thread in the forum of the con you're attending and follow up in there; if they have a forum, that is. ^^

[PyTom]

I would probably die of shame if I had to read my lectures. So I memorize them, more or less 45 minutes of speech.

What I usually do, and what has been recommended to me by several others, is to make a list of what you want to cover, in an appropriate order of coverage. Then one can ad-lib the speech proper, assuming one knows the subject well enough.

This way, one can tailor the speech on the fly based on the audience that actually showed up, and in response to comments and questions from the audience.

[JunsuinoKokoro]

Thanks for the advice. I do pretty well with presentations though. I work for a firm that requires good speaking ability. Mah' edjumication done me well . Mari-chan, I'd really appreciate whatever you could send me. I'm no expert in this, but the sad truth is that I might very well be the most informed person at the panel about ren'ai games . I'm a good speaker, and I do well with presentations, so I can fluff at least a mediocre presentation (at least before people start asking questions), but up and until that time, I'll be doing my best to become as well-informed as I can.

By the end of this weekend I should have a structured concept of what I want to do, a skelleton of sorts. Maybe we can start fleshing it out afterwards. I figure the things I want to know, others probably want to know too right? Heheh...at least I hope so.

I have to say, this board is great. Sometimes it's hard to find friendly places on the net. You guys are awesome.

[Sai]

I'm short on time these days so err can't helpa s much as I'd like.

PyTom said the main areas of interest. And he makes a very good point about referring people primarily to resources that are accessible.
I guess it was a different Renai World back a couple of years but when I lurked on the Megatokyo DSVN forums back then people would often come along, excited and interested in such games from catching little references in the Megatokyo comic only to be confronted with replies of "Nothing worth bothering with that is available in English". And consequently coming to the end of the road (never to return?).

It is a sad fact that the best examples of these games, are in Japanese. There's a false notion floating around for some reason that these games have to be all about sex. Literally some people may say "I thought this was supposed to be a Dating Sim. Where's the sex?". And rather than go out on a limb to challenge common perceptions, it therefore seems to be somewhat of a safe option for importers to ferry over games of this genre that are thin on plot and big on... well you get the idea.

I don't know if you'll gather this from the links I posted but in terms of adult content, for those interested, all the games on console (e.g. PS2, Dreamcast etc.) or games marked "All Ages" are without explicit adult content.

The Hirameki games seem quite nice, the only drawback is limited gameplay due to the format (DVD movie I think, under the label "AnimePlay DVD"). Hourglass of Summer seems like the better one but this is just going off the opinions of others, haven't had time to invest in one yet.
But I just checked out the Hirameki website at http://www.hirameki-int.com/
It looks like some fun stuff is coming in the near future with a new option "AnimePlay PC". Bringing visual novel games to America on the PC platform sounds like it might open up better and more in-depth gameplay options.
And the titles they are hoping to bring over sound good. Ai Yori Aoshi especially as you say your audience will be people who will be keen on any games that have an anime/manga counterpart, and Ai Yori Aoshi is popular. I also think Ever 17 might be a hot title, simply because I often see it crop up here and there.

There are tons of anime that are based on renai games or have led to renai games these days... to name a few off the top of my head:

Memories Off
Love Hina
Kanon
AIR
Shuffle!
Mizuiro
To Heart
Love Hina
Sister Princess
Futakoi

As a fun aside... some animes that aren't based on renai games but refer to them (mostly humorously):
Bottle Fairy (girl from nextdoor is playing one in an episode)
Excel Saga (one episode revolves around a dating sim idea I think)

The problem is, whilst the anime or manga may get you hooked on the characters and give you a familiar ground with which to dive into the games with. When you do dive in and found it's all in a language you can't understand (Japanese) it's disheartening. Noone wants to have to spend over a year learning Japanese to play 1 game.

You mention a few top titles:
Kanon (no official translation, but a fan translation by Haeleth is around the net someplace, not sure how far its got today)
AIR (no official translation, a partial fan translation might be available)
Shuffle! (not aware of any translation)
Da Capo (not aware of any translation)

Key is a top company for these games. They only have a few games but every one seems to be popular:
Kanon
AIR
Clannad
Planetarian (kinetic novel)

I think another point is about, what exactly do these games offer? Because no doubt some will be cynical and think "Only people without a love life need such games". Some might feel it is a lame concept simply because of the focus. Mostly in the West people want action games with shooting people and so on, so games like these are perceived as "lame". But we have romance novels and movies and so on, romance games are just another medium except you get to control the way things progress.

For example SPOILER for Kanon anime:

My friend hated the ending to the Kanon anime because Ayu annoys him =D He prefers Nayuki and after watching the anime he felt he'd like to be able to have Nayuki get to be happy with the love of her life instead. With an anime, that's your lot, tough luck Ayu is the one like it or lump it.

But with a game you are the decider and you get the happy ending you want. Sadly I don't think Kanon is translated but he was able to grab a partial fan translation back then (don't know how far Haeleth's translation has got today).

And of course the focus is more on character development and their relationships with each other. So the stories can be quite deep if they really look at the intricacies of a character.
Some might think a renai game would just be about "scoring girls" and have no real plot but games like Tenshi no Inai Jyuunigatsu (whichis also happens to be an adult game) sounds like it covers some tough topics (sadly no english translation, if they're gonna import adult renai games they should probably look into mature ones like these)

And as you say, because they are often not as action orientated and so therefore less animation and more plot/gameplay, they are able to produce more detailed artworks. Which is also what first got me interested in such games seeing as I am an artist personally =) My favourite artist is Mitsumi Misato. The music is also fun.

In terms of "story possibilities", I guess I would just think of Romance in general. Romance is a part of entertainment (movies/novels/games) either in part or as a big focus. And Romance can be in conjunction with other genres e.g. a gothic Horror Romance, a Fantasy Romance etc. So Shuffle! which seems to involve fantasy characters such as elves has romance but obviously involves other genres too. And Fate/Stay Night seems dark at times but is a renai game. They also can have a lot of gameplay and the Romance be a part of that as an aside, like RPG-based renai games. I think renai games can have a wide range and the story possibilities are endless really, the only thing they all have in common is that they go into depth more when it comes to relationships between characters which later develop into closer companionships...

Oh whilst I remember, http://www.freetype.net/ has some in-depth reviews for renai games. Unfortunately again, most may not have an English alternative.

And also, you might want to put in a word about a magazine called G's Magazine. I'm not sure why I'm able to get it here in the UK (and no doubt American comics shops can get it too) since we have zero games of this genre but I can and I think its great. It's a bishoujo games magazine, in Japanese unfortunately but the main thing is all the great full-colour screenshots and images displaying the latest renai games in Japan. With a rundown of the most popular titles currently and a lot of other stuff. Plus you sometimes get renai game related freebies. My favourites being the pencilboards, keychains and mini-figure I got =D Definitely worth picking up.

If you have any particular games you want pics for etc. Ask away. I also like to collect pics for such games and have a ton....
if I get time I will think about picking out some good ones for sending your way and anything else I can think of....

I ramble a lot.

Best of luck.

[mikey]

Because no doubt some will be cynical and think "Only people without a love life need such games".

I simply will agree, however I think my reasons are not exactly those Sai referred to in that line (oh, you can't get a girl, you must date cartoons). Let me explain:

There are no DS/VN games that in fact deal with relationships past the point of starting dating/having first sex. It all ends there. You win the girl's heart, good ending.

Thing is, people with relationships will find this samey after a game or two. There are no problem solving issues, no games focused on sustaining rather than just getting a relationship. So no matter how you wrap it up, how heart-warming or inventive the story, the setting you put it in, the relationships are always the same - in their buildup phases, making the games feel like clones, and it's an irritating red thread going through all the titles.

I think especially people with no previous relation to bishoujo gaming will see this and instantly put all the games into one bag - kind of like all RPGs are absolutely the same for me. It's the same principle. The story that players use to distinguish between the games based on the same principle isn't working with outsiders to whom only that leading "get girl" point is obvious.

You can't blame them, really.

... excited and interested in such games from catching little references in the Megatokyo comic only to be confronted with replies of "Nothing worth bothering with that is available in English"

In fact I have played several English titles that were very good porn games. Instant action, lots of girls and variations, it's actually very much the point of a sex game. And I don't find that if someone enjoys a non-plot sex game it automatically makes him a brainwashed idiot. It especially doesn't mean that a Horny Bunnies is a bad game, because it doesn't meet literary standards.

[Piroshiki]

There are no DS/VN games that in fact deal with relationships past the point of starting dating/having first sex. It all ends there. You win the girl's heart, good ending.

I'm curious about what makes you say that. Many go on for a while even after you "win" the girl (or guy), it's all a matter of what the story the author wanted to tell is. Sai mentionned Tenshi no inai 12 gatsu - that game is actually all about the relationships you develope with the (somewhat messed up) characters. Others would be Clover's Heart, School Days, Type-Moon games (Fate, Tsukihime), etc... In Memories Off 2nd, you actually have a girlfriend in the beginning of the game and have to break up with her to win another girl.

Then again, I'm not really knowing about what is released on the english market...

(Please forgive any spelling/coherence error, it's late and I seriously need sleep.)

[mikey]

I'm curious about what makes you say that.

It's the emphasis on romance as the key focus of the game's relationships. And I see this as a result of the general rule that it's the characters and story that are being primarily designed, and not the relationship.

So, in short when I play the games she feels real, the story feels real, but not my relationship with her. It's always a romantic relationship, never a loving one.